Debt Camel

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Ombudsman says (2016) it will look at payday loans over 6 years old

UPDATE:  new article published in October 2018 on two new important Ombudsman decisions – both saying the FOS can look at older cases. 

I am keeping this old article so people can see how this issue has developed.

Many people are making affordability complaints about payday loans, asking the lender to refund interest. In 2016 most lenders are refusing to look at any refunds for payday loans that were taken out more than six years ago, saying the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS) will not consider these cases.

This isn’t correct!

FOS explains its time limit rules as follows:

“six years from the event the consumer is complaining about (or – if later – three years from when the consumer knew, or could reasonably have known, they had cause to complain)“.

These are sometimes referred to as the “six plus three rules”.

Payday loan affordability complaints started to be made in 2015. For the early complaints, loans over 6 years were often not considered as being over the 6 year time limit, but a few were allowed.

Customers kept pointing out they had no idea that they could complain before.

In the summer of 2016, the FOS put all cases involving any loans over six years old on hold, while they decided whether the “three year” part of their rules meant they can look at these older loans.

In November 2016, letters were sent to the lenders in some of these cases saying:

Having thought about this case in more depth, I think we’re able to look at all the loans given to [borrower’s name].

The letters were identical – the FOS had clearly reached an internal policy decision that it was fair to look at the older loans.

Some of the points the letters made were:

  • the borrower would have known that they were in difficulty when they borrowed and may have realised the loans were unaffordable when they were taken out or soon afterwards;
  • that doesn’t mean the borrower would have known the lender did something wrong in lending this money. It’s more likely the borrower would have thought they were responsible themselves for taking out these unaffordable loans. But the complaint is that the lender would have known the borrower couldn’t pay these loans back if they had complied with certain lending requirements eg the requirement to lend responsibly.
  • if the borrower didn’t realise the lender had done something wrong then he wouldn’t have had cause to complain about it.
  • nothing has suggested the borrower was aware, or should really have been aware, they had reason to complain about the fairness of the lending at the time of the loans, or more than three years before the complaint.

Which is exactly what I think.

The lenders were asked if they accepted this. So the lenders were getting a chance to object. This is how the FOS works – both sides are told what the adjudicator is thinking and have a right to comment on it.

In March 2017, Instant Cash Loans Ltd – who owns the Payday UK, Payday Express and the Money Shop brands – accepted the Ombudsman’s general approach and started to pay out on older loans.  Annoyingly these three lenders are still sometimes trying to fob people off at the initial complaint stage, saying the Ombudsman won’t look at loans that are more than 6 years old even. See What should you do? below.

Since this decision, Wonga and QuickQuid have been objecting to the Ombudsman’s decision. In summer 2018 they were still arguing over a few test cases. Until these are agreed, all other cases with loans over 6 years with these two lenders are on hold – that is several thousand cases.

If a lender tells you FOS won’t look at loans over 6 years old, don’t believe it! If you only had a few loans and they were all over 6 years, you may decide not to bother, but if you borrowed repeatedly from the same lender for many months then don’t let yourself be put off. Send your case straight to the Ombudsman.

October 2018 – two new published FOS decisions

See my new article Ombudsman decisions on payday loans over 6 years old for details.

Comments are now closed on this article. Please add any to the new article.

Comments

  1. Hi Sara / everyone
    Just to let you know that an adjudicator has yesterday ruled in favour of me to MYJAR stating that all loans including those over 6 years should be looked at given the fact that I only learnt I could make an affordability complaint in March 2017. They have given MYJAR the option of accepting this so my complaint can be progressed or they can appeal to the Ombudsman. Its heartening to know that finally there is some movement on 6+ year cases for the lenders that refused to accept this (MYJAR being one of them along with Wonga and QQ, Im still waiting for Wonga). I still reckon MYJAR will appeal but worth waiting as I had 11 £100 loans greater than 6 years and another ten or so after

  2. This is fantastic news! Give me a lot of hope not only that my claims will be accepted but also that they will finally be looked at!

  3. Hi,

    I received compensation from Wonga in April last year for loans from 2011-14 for irresponsible lending.I regularly had loans from 2009-14. I was unaware that I could receive compensation for loans over 6 years old and didn’t appeal this. Could I submit another complaint asking for 2009-11 to be looked at? I have evidence of every loan ever taken out. I would appreciate any advice.

        • If that is the exact wording, I suggest you phone the Ombudsman up and say you feel you were mislead and can they look at the earlier loans.

          • I’ll do that Sara, thank you. If they refuse can I make another complaint to wonga? Thanks for all your help I really appreciate it.

  4. Still a waiting game on QQ over six year loans. My complaint will be two years old in July 18. Update from the FO yesterday:

    Thank you for your email. I have now reviewed your complaint and unfortunately your complaint is still waiting for a final decision. I know this isn’t the answer you were hoping for however we are still working closely with Casheuronet to try and resolve your complaint. Whilst I can’t be sure how long this will take I can assure you that we will not forget about your complaint and are working hard to try and resolve this part of your complaint.

    I hope this clarifies the situation, should you have any further questions please do not hesitate to get in contact with us.

  5. Hi Sara :)

    Do you know roughly how long the older than 6 years loans with PDUK are taking to be picked up by the Ombudsman?

  6. Just an update regarding my MYJAR complaint – I had 19 loans in total with 11 loans over 6 years – 1st loan was June 2010. After 2 adjudicator decisions – 1 agreeing they could look into ones over 6 years and the 2nd to state that I should be refunded for loans 4-19 – MYJAR agreed and paid me £588.57 which went into my bank last week within a few days – so 8 loans over 6 years had the interest refunded!

    Just one more complaint to go! Wonga where I also have lots of 6+ year loans I made the complaint in March 2017 and still waiting on that one…….

  7. Anyone heard anymore from the ombudsman for QuickQuid over 6 years my last update was a month ago same reply still ongoing and can’t give any time frames surely this must be close to getting resolved by now ?
    2 years with ombudsman

    • I am the same, been with them for a considerable time and still not heard anything with regards to a decision on it

  8. Hi all. I just had a response from Zopa regarding an irresponsible lending complaint relating to a £5,000 loan I took out via their peer to peer lending platform. They have rejected the complaint, an extract of their response is as follows:

    “Given these loans were set up and approved between yourself and the members of the public who were willing to fund the loan, Zopa were not involved in completing affordability checks, nor the outcome of your Listing. We simply checked that your identity matched with Equifax”

    This is an unusual situation as they are saying that it wasn’t them that lent me the money. However, it quite clearly states Zopa on my credit file! I have referred this to the FOS and will be interested in their response. I will keep you all updated.

  9. Still no update on QQ over 6 years :(

    Thank you for your email. Having looked at your complaint I can see that it is still waiting for a final decision. Unfortunately, I do not have any new information to give to you due to the ongoing issue we’re having with Quick Quid. Once again, I apologise for the time it’s taking for us to resolve your complaint.

  10. Is anyone feeling a increasing sense of frustration with the lack of progress in regards to QQ loans and the lack of timescale in which they expect this to be resolved? It feels this could go on indefinitely and us all end up missing out. It’s even more frustrating that there is no-where we can go to complain about the length of time this is taking.

    What I don’t understand is the whole point of the Ombudsman is for them to make these decisions so if the likes of QQ can just simply challenge these and delay them for what is now years what is the point? Some people having these still outstanding after 2 years is completely unacceptable. Surely at this point the FCA need to step in and sort this process out?

    After the recent exposé on the Financial Ombudsman I am also sceptical about the urgency they are putting on this. Are they purposely delaying this as they are understaffed, have a backlog of complaints and in fact this delay benefits them as if all of these suddenly flood in they will be unable to cope?

    Surely something has to give soon?

    • I agree, it is getting ridiculous. QQ gave their final response to me on 20/06/16, which I rejected. I have been waiting since 27/06/16 for the Ombudsman decision. Loans over 6 six years and 1 loan within 6 years. I ask for an update once a month but this is not moving.

      • Completely agree. I have been waiting a year for loans over 6 years with Wonga & again same problem, no update at all.
        Surely this cannot carry on as the backlog is building and building

  11. I have just submitted a freedom of information request for the following details.

    The number of complaints currently held up due to this legal issue.
    The date of the oldest complaint being held up due to this legal issue or how long the complaint has been outstanding.
    The total value of the claims being held up or the total value of the loans or any other £ figure you can provide regarding these claims.
    The total number of loans affected.

    They have confirmed they will get back to me by 15th May. It will be interesting if they are able to supply any of this information and what results come out of this. Hopefully it is a large enough number to possibly attract some interest from news outlets and put some pressure on all parties to resolve this.

    • Hi – have you heard anything yet? I’ve chased again today – getting really sick of waiting! Wouldn’t mind if there was any sort of updates but there’s nothing!

      • Hello,

        The deadline is the 15th May and as soon as I receive the response I will post it on here.

        I strongly suspect however they will come up with some kind reason why the information requested they cannot provide.

  12. Are loans being looked at over 6years?
    With several companies I had issues of loan spells and debt issues
    2009
    2012- entered debt management
    2015
    Finally back on track but will they look at these as one complaint or look at each episode individually.
    During all 3 episodes i tended to have loans with Wonga, quick quid, payday uk and lending stream.
    So each complaint starts from 2009 until 2015.
    They are all with FOS are they likely to discount anything over 6 years and look at the others?
    Also are the 6 years from when the loan started on ended as a couple a right in the middle.

    • PDUK are paying out on loans over 6 years. QQ and Wonga are still in talks with FOS regarding over 6 years and some people have been waiting over a year with no movement so you may have a long wait for this two.

      • Hi,
        I phoned FOS on Monday regarding my complaint with PDUK and the loans that are older than six years, they informed me they they’re still looking into whether they can do this or not. I’ve had an offer from the for loans less than six years but I think I’m just going to wait however long it takes as I have so many that are older than six years I just wish I knew about it all sooner probably would have helped a lot whilst I was pregnant two years ago which if I’d known them all loans would have been looked at

  13. Below is the latest response I have received:

    Thank you for your email.

    I apologise for the time it is taking to look into your complaint. I appreciate just how frustrating you must find the delays in us being able to consider your complaint.

    A number of payday lenders have challenged us on our interpretation of the time limit rules determining which complaints we can and can’t look at. As you can imagine this is a matter with much wider impact than just us looking at your complaint and I’m afraid that it’s taking us a while to get this matter resolved.

    This issue may have to be resolved through the courts so unfortunately until the matter is fully resolved we’re simply not able to proceed with any case where the interpretation of time limit rules applies. I’m afraid I’m not able to give you any indication of timescales due to the nature of the hold up as described above.

    We will do our best to keep you updated.

  14. so, I’ve been waiting for 16 months now regarding my FOS complaint against QQ for loans over 6 years… at the point I made my complaint I heard people had already waited 12 months or more… why is no progress being made?

    I keep getting the schpeel back about both parties working together to come to a legally mutual standpoint, but this takes the mickey a little now. the only positive for us consumers is that more interest will be paid on any win. otherwise, this just stinks.

    • I am in the same boat. all my loans are over 6 years 2005-2009. With the FOS , today I was told quick quid refused to sent the details the FOS requested from them on the grounds the loans are over 6 years old. I asked where do I go from here they just stated “we are in the process of seeing if a mutal agreement with quick quid around old loans can be agreed” If not we will look into the legal frame work surround it. I though from past threads QQ were going to be ordered to consider refunding loans over 6 years old – after todays phone conversation I am not so sure!!!!

      • It’s getting bad now I’m waiting coming up to 2 years now on a decision on the over 6 years loans surely they must be getting to a point where they order them one way or another after all correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t this what the ombudsman is there to do and decide they must have 100s of complaints with them other company’s have done so !

        • if the rulings put in place have meant that other lenders have been forced to agree to look into the complaints over 6 years old I don’t see what makes QQ feel they are different.

          all they are doing in my eyes is prolonging the inevitable and in turn costing themselves more in refunds – the longer they take the more interest we’ll be entitled to should our cases become successful so apart from the wait any successful complaints will bear more fruit for us and less for them. I’ve stressed this to them on a number of occasions but they simply chose to ignore this fact.

          Sara, any updates you can advise of at all?

  15. My latest update, nearly 2 years since complaint was logged:

    Thank you for your email. I apologise for the delay in responding.

    Having looked at your complaint unfortunately I don’t have an update for you. Your complaint is still waiting for a final decision and I don’t know how much longer it is going to take. I apologise for the continued delay but I’m unable to progress the matter due to on-going issues with Casheuronet.

    I appreciate that you’ve been waiting a long time but we will be in touch as soon as there is an update.

  16. I am unable to copy and paste the exact reply from the Ombudsman as it is too long for this comments page however as expected they replied at the very last minute and with very little information. I find it is very unlikely that companies happen to process these complaints hours or minutes before their deadlines and quite obviously delay their responses on purpose.

    There was a lot of jargon and babbling but the key points are that they cannot specify how many of the 1,500 outstanding complaints they currently have with CashEuronet without going through each individual case and it is therefore outside of the Freedom of Information Act remit.

    They do however go on to say that the oldest outstanding complaint with CashEuronet for a matter similar to mine is 25 months. This, for me, begs the question how they can know this without going through “all 1,500 complaints” but cannot tell me the other information?

    They concluded with the following;

    “As you’re aware, we’ve been speaking to Casheuronet about cases like yours – and they
    still insist we can’t look at any loans taken out more than six years before the complaint
    was made. We’ve explained that we think we can in a couple of cases. And they’ve come
    back to us with quite a bit of further information – and we’re in the process of considering
    what this means for cases, including your one.”

    There are a few interesting points in this. The fact the Ombudsman are saying they think they can in a “couple” of cases says to me a majority they wouldn’t consider anyway. Have they already discounted these cases?

    The second point is they have confirmed CashEuronet have gone back to the Ombudsman so the hold up is actually on the Ombudsman’s side, something I feel is key.

    I would like to go back and further question however I think it would result in little to no progress and therefore a waste of time. I think the only way to get substantial movement on this is to achieve media involvement, I have already messaged Watchdog regarding this a few months ago however armed with this information I may contact them again, maybe it is an idea for us all to agree on a certain 2-3 days to all send in the same complaint and therefore get their attention?

    • “This, for me, begs the question how they can know this without going through “all 1,500 complaints” but cannot tell me the other information?”

      I don’t think that is a good point. I would have thought it would be pretty simple to tell what the oldest complaint still open against QQ is and check if it is a “over 6 year case” – which of course it will be.

      “The fact the Ombudsman are saying they think they can in a “couple” of cases says to me a majority they wouldn’t consider anyway.”

      No, that is a misunderstanding.

      What is happening is that all cases except a couple have been placed on hold whilst QQ and the FOS (and similarly Wonga and the FOS) argue over these test cases. There is no point in the arguing the same points over lots of very similar cases. What is being argued is only whether older loans can be looked at, not whether the individual cases should be refunded.

      “they have confirmed CashEuronet have gone back to the Ombudsman so the hold up is actually on the Ombudsman’s side”

      That is my understanding – the ball is currently in the FOS’s court. And I wish they would hurry up!

    • I have now read the full FoI reply – thanks for sending it to me.

      It says “Whilst we record the number of cases we’ve received relating to whether they’re in our remit or not, we’re unable to provide the total number of Casheuronet cases affected by the same issue as your complaint. This is because we don’t record the reason why we might not be able to consider the complaint in a searchable format. We also don’t record the total value of the claims being held up or the total value of the loans affected in a searchable format. Currently, our case management system shows we have around 1,500 complaints about Casheuronet relating to whether they’re within our remit or not.”

      Let’s look at the reasons why a QQ complaint may be in the pile of 1,500 complaints awaiting a remit decision.

      The first is the over 6 years cases, which is the ones you were enquiring about.

      The second is where people were given a decision by QQ but failed to take it to the Ombudsman within 6 months – these cases are not very common and they do get resolved so they don’t tend to sit in the remit pile for more than a few months.

      There may be a handful of other oddities.

      I don’t think all new complaints automatically go to the jurisdication team – that would be a huge waste of resources.

      QQ sometimes tell people that flexi accounts can’t be refunded but that is simply not true and I haven’t heard of any such complaints being handed to the jurisdiction team for a remit decision.

      So overall I would be surprised if out of the 1,500 remit cases, more than a hundred are for any reason except the 6 year situation. But that is just my gut feel.

    • Makes me wonder if mine is the 25 month one as it was 8/4/16 when I originally complained to fos. My complaint includes loans over 6 years with QQ. I am, like everyone, fed up of waiting now.

  17. My dilemma is whether I should take an offer of £1500 from QQ, this is for loans which are less than 6 years old. Or should I wait for this seemingly neverending saga to be concluded when I MAY receive in the region of £6000.
    The problem is that there’s a lot that I can do with the £1500 right now. Added to that is the feeling that the Ombudsman isn’t really pushing to bring this to a conclusion. I could still be in this situation in 2 years time.
    It seems unfair that the loans can’t be split into two. The before 6 years and the after 6 years. One could be settled and the other put on hold.

    • That is a huge amount of money at stake.

      I am still optimistic that the current impasse will be resolved shortly. I have said that before, but so far as I am aware, no new arguments have been put forward for a while. The FOS really does want to get this sorted it just has to be painstakingly through.

      How about sending the case the the FOS now and if there is no progress in 3 months putting in a complaint to the FOS and asking for your case to be split into two.

      • I’m sorry, I wasn’t very clear in my original message. This has been with the FOS since August 2017. They’ve told me that the offer is still available, but that if I were to take it then they wouldn’t then be able to look at the 14 loans that were over 6 years old when I made the complaint. I’ll copy the response I got from them in February when I asked for an update.

        Thank you for your email. Your complaint against QuckQuid is currently on hold due to the business stating that the first 14 out of 21 loans are outside of our time limits to consider them. We are still in discussion with the business to see if we are able to review all the loans you took out with the business. There is no timescale on when this matter will be resolved. You have the following options:

         

        ·         Wait until the above matter has been resolved, so your case will continue to be on hold.

        ·         Accept the business’ offer, but we will not be able to review your complaint again at a later date.

        ·         Inform us that you would like to proceed with us reviewing the loans you took out with the business that are not in dispute. However, we will not be able to review the first 14 loans at a later date. If you decide to take this option, we can also determine whether the offer the business has made is reasonable, or it should make an alternative offer.

        • Given that they were quite clear about my options, do you think there’s any chance that they will allow the loans on either side of the 6 year threshold to be dealt with seperately?

          • You could ask them if they are prepared to do that. It is unlikely that they will.

  18. Thought you’d all like an update I received from the FOS:

    Thank you for your email dated 9 May 2018 requesting an update. As I understand it, our ombudsman have done some work on the jurisdiction issue and are currently liaising with businesses to finalise our approach on these cases. Unfortunately, there does not appear to be any specific timescale for this work, but nonetheless progress is being made. I fully appreciate your frustration at the time this has taken and can only apologise, as this matter is ongoing.

  19. My update from FOS today, re: QQ over 6 years. My complaint is now 2 years old.

    Having reviewed your complaint, it is still waiting to be resolved. As you may be aware, some payday or short-term lenders, including QuickQuid, object to us looking at loans which were taken out more than six years before a consumer complains. But we are looking to see if our rules allow you longer. We’ve been considering some difficult arguments on this point, including some complex and legal submissions.

    The decision we reach on this will have an impact on a number of other cases (currently around 2,000) so we need to make sure we carefully consider the arguments raised by the business before we make a decision.

    It’s taking us longer than we’d like to reach a decision but we’re making every effort to get an answer out as soon as possible.

    I’m sorry that we’re still not in a position to work your case yet but as soon as we are able to we will let you know. We can’t give you any definitive timescales I’m afraid but please be assured that we will update you as soon as we have any further information.

  20. Glad I found this, thought I was having it bad having waited over a year but seems folk have been waiting a lot longer even. Total joke this. I was made an offer on 3 of my 12 loans (which fell within 6 years). I’d actually be tempted to take the offer now as there looks to be no end in sight to this unfortunately :(

    My latest reply below-

    Thanks for your email. This isn’t a normal situation and we are sorry for the time this is taking.

    It is not awaiting allocation to an adjudicator. We are still considering our position regarding loans taken out more than 6 years before the complaint was raised.

    I know this is taking too long and I really hope we should be in a position to update everyone shortly.

    Thank you for your patience…

    • All I can say is this must come to an end at some point. You could go back and say you will settle on the 3 loans now – but then you may kick yourself if the ombudsman eventually reaches a final decision in the next few months.

  21. Hi, I had the following email from an adjudicator regarding payday express loans over 6 years.

    “Payday Express has objected to us looking at all seven of your loans which you took out between 2010 and 2011 , because they were taken more than six years before your complaint was made. I’m currently looking into what they’ve said, to determine whether or not I agree with their position.

    In relation to your complaint, can you please explain;

    when you first became aware that the business may have done something wrong – and what prompted you to realise this?

    Additionally, what was it that made you realise the business had a duty to lend responsibly? Could you please provide details of when you became aware that this was the case? It would be very helpful if you could provide a more exact timescale for this (month, year).”

    I first complained about the loans in August 2017 but had only realised in around June 2017 that complaints of this kind could be raised. Has anyone else had a similar email and what would tou suggest my reply should be?

    Thanks

  22. Spoke to the ombudsman today re loans over 6 years and they said they are ‘very close’ to reaching a decision.

    • Let’s hope they mean that and it’s in or favour. Over two years for my complaint with QQ.

    • Fingers crossed, they told me this last week so I wasn’t hopeful of anything soon..

      As you say, it is a complex issue that we’re looking into. And we’ve a large volume of cases like yours that are affected by similar objections from a multitude of businesses. So it’s imperative that we get it right – as any mistakes could mean even further lengthy delays in the future for our consumers.

      We can’t give you a precise timeframe right now of when we’ll be able to give you an answer on whether we can take your complaint about all of your loans forward. And I don’t want to estimate a timescale and give you an expectation that we may potentially not be able to meet. But we don’t anticipate this issue taking years to resolve.

      • That doesn’t give the impression it’s ‘very close’. They told me the above a month ago.

        • Exactly, just get the impression we’re all being fobbed off now, is anyone even looking at it? How can it take over 2 years, that’s just madness

  24. My update today:

    Thank you for your email. Unfortunately there hasn’t been any movement on your complaint. We’re still trying to resolve the multiple issues we’re having with Casheuronet. We will be in touch as soon as we have any news.

    For QQ over two years old now :(

  25. Think we should all send emails see what we get back! I have a feeling like it’s just on the back burner myself I understand they’re very thorougher with these things but I still think two years is a long time surely they have a idea of if they will up hold this and force it on qq I’ve a feeling they are going to get out of this one !

    • I agree, I did make reference in the email I sent that I was aware of growing concerns and frustration from a lot of people in similar situations to myself. It may well be the case they are working away hard on this and it is genuinely just taking a while (understatement), if so there’s no harm done questioning it, on the other hand if they are being lax with this and putting it on the back burner then the more people who pester and highlight it can only help

  26. I’m wondering if they’re going to wait until this 3 year rule has expired. I know it’s not an exact rule, but most of us have said we are complaining within 3 years of finding out that it may have been irresponsible. Wasn’t it late 2015 when the news broke we could complain?

    • It doesn’t “expire”. People complaining now are saying that they have only just found out, so they are within the 3 year rule.

  27. What’s your view on it all Sara do you think it’s taking a lot longer than usual ? Would this be due to the amount it would cost QQ you think that’s would be there argument? Clearly they have already lost on numerous times on unaffordable lending and this would be tro much to pay out

    • This is a unique situation – there is no “usual” to compare it to. QQ and Wonga are both arguing as hard as they can that the FOS is wrong when it says it can look at these older loans. I can’t see the ombudsman being impressed if they complain it would be a lot of money!

  28. Just received this reply from FOS

    “Thank you for your email. I’m sorry it’s taken us so long to get back to you.

    Your complaint is waiting to be allocated to an adjudicator who can make an assessment as to whether or not the complaint was made in time of the six year limit. Unfortunately we have a high volume of complaints similar to this so it may take us a while before we can get an answer to you.

    We really appreciate your patience. Once the case is allocated to an adjudicator, they’ll be in touch.

    If you have any questions or queries, please don’t hesitate to contact us

    Yours sincerely”

    Does this mean the legal issues have been resolved and it is now a case of waiting our turn?

    • I wouldn’t read too much into that, I got a similar message ages ago, then someone else replied when I chased it saying –

      ‘It is not awaiting allocation to an adjudicator. We are still considering our position regarding loans taken out more than 6 years before the complaint was raised.

      I know this is taking too long and I really hope we should be in a position to update everyone shortly.’

      It’s a shambles basically

  29. Daft question but,
    If the six year rule falls in the PDL companies’ favour, the FOS will still consider the loans under 6 years old from the date the complaint was raised, correct?

    I’m half tempted to ask the FOS to split the complaint, but don’t want to muddy the waters and end up losing out on redress as the loans older than 6 years were the beginning of the debt spiral I found myself in and therefore should be considered, any thoughts/experiences.

    Cheers

    • From the date the complaint was sent to the FOS, yes. This is the worst case outcome if people hang on.

      But how many loans did you have before the 6 years and what was the interest you paid on these? If it was only a few, you could say to the FOS you are happy not to get a refund for the older loans but you would like them taken into account in assessing the under 6 year loans.

      • Hi Sara,
        Thankyou, I would say around £1,500 interest and fees across 3 lenders over 6 years old, then around £8,000 across the remaining period.
        It’s a big hit to take if I have no chance of them revisiting the earlier loans once this 6yr argument is eventually concluded.
        Thanks

    • can you separate that out by lender? and who are the lenders? and do you have all your bank statements going back to the start?

      If the FOS does in the end decide it can’t look at the older loans (and I do NOT expect that to happen!) then they will look at the under 6 year loans. You don’t have to worry about that.

      • The lenders are;

        6yrs+
        QQ – £797
        WDA – £696.25
        PDEX – £820

        6yrs-
        QQ – £3158.10
        WDA – £232.50
        PDEX – £2890.98

        Statements covering the full spread have been submitted to FOS.

        It is worth noting for other people out there that quickquid only sent me the “payday loans” initially and I had to request an SOA again to include the “flex credit” accounts.

        Cheers

        • The good news is that PDEX and WDA normally agree to payout on loans over 6 years. So only QQ May turn out to be very prolonged.

    • They have all been with the FOS with a specialist team since Dec 2017 awaiting the outcome

      • OK, I suggest you phone the Ombudsman up and ask why the PDEX and WDA cases aren’t being progressed as you understand those lenders are sometimes paying out on refunds for loans over 6 years.

  30. Both payday uk and payday express are not considering loans from over 6 years and neither is the FOS right now. End of chat unfortunately..

  31. I have has a letter in the post today (which looks like a photocopy!) with no further update than any of the emails I have had for the past few months. No movement on loans over 6 years old with QQ and sorry it’s taking us so long. Very odd. Have not had any postal correspondance from them for about 18 months, my complaint is well over 2 years now.

    • yes me also im guessing its easier to photo copy and send than just email everyone asking

      • I’m wondering if they have to send something as it’s been so long. I didn’t ask for an update :) When I opened it, I thought it was going to be a rejection!

  32. Hiya
    Has anyone delt with MrLender? And payday express.?
    I only just found out I could claim back my interest. I got my loans out in 2011 so I’m over the 6 years.
    Mr lender have refused me so I’ve taken the case to the FOS, still waiting on payday express but I can only imagine they might say same thing.
    Has anyone’s case with these 2 companies been considered after the 6 years? Or do you know of any cases Sara?
    Thanks

    • Payday Express are definitely paying out on loans over 6 years. I can’t remember a recent Mr Lender case – could you come back and say how yours goes?

  33. Hi Sara

    I just love this page. I’ve recently logged irresponsible lending for my loans and credit cards. The loans are not payday loans. I had my first rejection letter from Lloyds stating the 6 year rule. However I am going down the mitigating circumstances route where I had a health condition which led to a disability then coupled up with more issues then went into a DMP. My focus was to clear all my debts and have the all clear for my health. I’m now at a point where I need to challenge all these companies. Any advise is greatly appreciated. Thanks. Maxine

    • When were the loans and credit cards taken out? Could you say a bit about your health problems?

      • Hi Sara

        Health condition was from 2003/04 but then in 2007 I had a heart conduction then went on a DMP in 2008. It’s only now my health is on full force and DMP closes on Tuesday. So I’m focusing on irresponsible lending from 2008 as all the debtors kept increasing my credit limit knowing I had bad credit then slapped on huge interest and late charges when I was in financial difficulties. I’m hoping my health condition will fall under mitigating circumstances

        • So were you in ill health from 2008-2015? The problem with trying to make these affordabilty complaints for increases in credit card lending that long ago, is the lenders are likely to not have kept any records.

  34. Hi

    Yes I have all my health reports. I guess I can only try and hope for the best. Since getting the all clear last month for my heart condition I’ve started challenging these companies

    The SARS records go right back to 1998. I have managed to identify all the charges I want to challenge from 2008 since being on a DMP

    Maxine

      • Hi Sarah

        Quick update. Lloyds refused to look at my complaint stating the 6 year rule. However Capital One partially upheld my complaint and only partially made a refund. They refused the 8% interest and refused refunding the £590 for selling the loan on. I will challenge them again before going to the Ombudsman as they agreed to refund some of the interest. I have quite a few other credit cards to complain about regarding affordability and high interest rates whilst being on a DMP. What I don’t understand is why the 6 year was applied for Lloyds but not Capital One.

        Thanks

        Maxine

        • Some firms routinely refuse over 6 year cases hoping you will give up. These are harder to win at the Ombudsman.

          What was over 6 years, the date the account was opened? Or the credit limit increases you are complaint about?

          When you were in a DMP, were these credit cards still adding interest? Or weren’t these included in your DMP?

          • Hi Sarah

            Lloyds were going by the date the account was open whereas I asked them to look at the interest from 2008 when I was on a DMP and interest was accruing. Capital One did not mention the 6 year rule so I was pleased. The biggest complaint I have at the moment is with GE Money. That’s another story.

  36. Morning Sara
    I’ve just started my affordability adventure, hopefully I’ve not missed the boat somewhat however it truly never twigged with me that this would be an option. Lots and lots of rollover loans to address with QQ, PDUK, WDA, lending stream and Myjar, many over 6 years old so fun and games to come but appreciating all the help your site has offered so far.

  37. I am hoping for some news from the ombudsman on QuickQuid’s over 6 year loan test case in the next couple of weeks.

    (Of course I have been wrong before.)

    • Oh really? Heard whispers or just a feeling?

      I just emailed yesterday for another update but no reply as yet.

      Hopefully light at the end of the tunnel…!

  38. With Wonga in administration, and the FOS still looking into into the legality of refunds over 6 years old, how does this work with regards to the settlement of creditors once Wongas assets are confirmed. Can they just ignore that section of complaints, and pay their remaining assets to the other creditors?

  39. Emailed them for another update, complete joke of a reply..

    When we look at complaints, our service has to follow certain rules. One of these rules says that – unless there are exceptional circumstances – we can only consider complaints if they’ve been raised within six years of the event having happened. Or, if later, within three years of when a consumer became aware – or should have become aware – that they had reason to complain.

    Quick Quid have raised an objection to us looking into some of the loans you borrowed so we will need to look into this before we’re able to progress the case any further – I’m able to provide any timeframes at the moment.

    • I am hoping there will be some news of movement in QQ over6 year cases in the next few weeks.

      • Sara, you keep saying that you’re hoping for need ‘in a couple of weeks’ and ‘ in the next few weeks’. Have you anything to substantiate this or is it just wishful thinking?

  40. Emailed for an update on QQ over 6 years:

    Thank you for your email. My manager Richard has passed me your update request for response. Unfortunately there isn’t much of an update to give you. Your complaint is still waiting for decision and I don’t know how long it is going to take for us to get an answer to you. I would reassure you that we will be in touch as soon as a decision has been made.

  41. Hi Sara
    I have a complaint in with the FOS which relates to loans with Quick Quid over 6 years and I have received the typical updates. My worry is that if the FOS do get the go ahead to proceed with these complaints that there will be so many that Quick quid will simply go in to administration like Wonga….

  42. Hi Sara
    I submitted complaints to FOS in March ‘18 regarding PDUK, PDE, LS and Moneyshop – I’ve agreed on Lending Stream response to look at last loan (Total of 3) but with the 8% interest that FOS added too – (£472 Total) Moneyshop being looked at next (Total of 12) – going back over 6 years..
    The issue is both PDUK and PDE (Over 15 loans each) are pushing back and saying that FOS can’t look at this due to being over 6 years – but the above Moneyshop is in the same boat and is?
    FOS have confirmed they can’t look at this yet and are deciding on whether they can, however they don’t know when this will be yet and it’s the same for everyone else?
    What’s the story with this as it says above in your post that FOS can look at these loans – what’s the plan of action here?

    • The plan of action for you is that you wait, the FOS has to decide to look at your case. Payday UK and Payday Express at one point were ok withe the FOS looking at older loans ans, whether they have changed their approach as a general,principle I don’t know yet.

    • Think yourself lucky you’re coming into it at this point, there’s some of us been waiting over 2 years at this stalemate…!

    • They have a large US parent so it’s probably less likely. They are also advertising a lot so may be doing better from new lending and this may have been improved by Wonga’s demise? But who knows…

  44. having had a look across a few of the pages on this wonderful site, I can see 2 or 3 comments from the last week or so where users are reporting responses / offers from QQ regarding loans over 6 years.

    do you think this is slowly being picked up?

  45. when you say “users are reporting responses / offers from QQ regarding loans over 6 years.” is that direct from QQ or from the FOS?

    • Users saying QQ have contacted them, but I’d hazard a guess that all those affected by QQs’ over 6 years stance will already be with the FOS on hold.

      me personally, if this helps you, I contacted QQ in Jan 2017, they rejected my complaint on the over 6 years rule, so I escalated to the FOS and since then its been on hold. my comment about seeing a few instances where it looks like over 6 years complaints are now being dealt with is simply my opinion that they may now been making ground. presumably in the cases I’ve noticed, perhaps the FOS have gone to QQ and then QQ have made offers (which historically haven’t been great according to this site!).

      just a matter of playing the waiting game a little longer lets hope.

  47. I was made a terrible offer a couple of years back from QQ, so put it to the Ombudsman, it’s sitting with them now throughout all this, am I allowed to go directly to QQ and see if they are willing to make me another settlement offer? Or as my case is still pending with the ombudsman do I have to just leave it and wait?

    Thanks for the update by the way

    • There is no rule which says you can’t talk to QQ. Most firms don’t engage in negotiating directly with a customer when there is a case at the Ombudsman though.

      • Thanks Sara, worth a try then, wouldn’t have if there was a possibility it would jeopardise my case

          • as I’ve just mentioned below in response to another post, I’ve contact QQ on at least 3 occasions over the last 18 months requesting settlement / resolution without the assistance of the FOS but QQ haven’t budged as yet.

            again as mentioned below, hopefully they will soon see that in hindsight they should have.

    • I contacted QQ around a year ago and they kept saying any offer would have to go through the FOS. I was told by the FOS that I was perfectly entitled to try to negotiate with QQ however they cannot go to QQ with any offer. I am guessing that QQ meant that they would only listen to a decision from the FOS rather than an offer from me.

      I contacted them again this week saying I would be willing to accept a reduced settlement to get this settled quickly but they refused hands down without even asking to what level I would be willing to go down to.

      Pretty sure my case is clear cut so it seems poor business practice on their part considering they could save a lot of money by negotiating lower settlements. I wonder if this is policy that was implemented during this legal process but is yet to be changed given the development.

      • tried that myself on about 3 occasions since Jan 2017, no progress. they aren’t budging!

        but perhaps in hindsight now in light of what appears to be positive progress for us, they will hope that they had.

        • Spoke to the ‘resolution’ department at Quick Quid this week. The person I spoke to claimed to know nothing about the supposed discussion/ negotiation between his company and the FOS. He simply said that anything over 6 yrs couldn’t be considered.

          • well we know of at least 3 cases where the FOS have enforced a decision to look at QQ complaints over 6 years, so things are slowly progressing.

  48. I have put a claim in for a few companies the usual suspects. The company I used was called [edited out]. I have had 5 companies now all with the FOS I have provided all statements and I was told usually its a 3 month turn around (90 days). Has anyone had experience with this company? As we are nearly 100 days in and still nothing. I called the company up and spoke to someone who didn’t really sound like he knew what he was talking about, he then told me it could be 9 months!!

    Any advice is welcome!

    • I suspect they just made up a figure when they said it was usually a 90 day turn round – the average hasn’t been that low in 2018. A few would come in around 90 days but a typical result was a month longer even early in the year. 8-12 weeks for a case to be picked up by an adjudicator then 2-4 weeks for a decision. And then some take longer if they have to go to the second Ombudsman stage.

      “I called the company up and spoke to someone who didn’t really sound like he knew what he was talking about, he then told me it could be 9 months!!” yes, he probably didn’t know anything at all.

      If you would like to say who the lenders are, how many loans from each and roughly when the borrowing was, we may be able to make a better guess?

  49. Hi

    My complaint against Sunny (16 loans) was received by the Ombudsman 3rd Aug 2018. Not heard anything since then. Does anyone have a rough guide on timeframes it takes for a final decision from the ombudsman?

    • Hi Dan, do you have an adjudicator decision so you are waiting for an Ombudsman level decision? In yes, when you say “your complaint was received by the Ombudsman” do you mean that was the date it went into the queue for an Ombudsman or it was picked up by an Ombudsman at that date? And are some of your loans over 6 years old?

      • Thanks for your reply, My loans only go back as far as 2014
        I was successful in claiming back interest from Wonga (£900) only weeks before they went bang. At the same time Sunny rejected my complaint directly I then sent it on to the FOS. I received this on 3rd Aug…… ‘The Financial Ombudsman Service have acknowledged your complaint and they are presently reviewing the complaint and requesting Sunny provide them with their paperwork relating to you and your loan applications.’

  50. So what exactly is the latest situation with regards QQ and the over 6 years cases?
    Is it a case that they are working through the older ones at the FO or are QQ holding firm in their dispute?
    Been on hold for nearly 2 years and just wondered what the test cases actually mean at this stage for the older claims?

    • The latest (so far as I know) is that some cases are now being actively investigated by their adjudicators. I am not aware of any yet which have got to a Final Decision and been paid by QQ.

      • This is the latest I’ve heard, was about 6 weeks ago –

        Thank you for your email below, it would appear we have finalised our approach to some degree. I cannot say whether we are intending to look at each individual complaint and judge on its merits, or adopt a “blanket” approach with a business, whereby all complaints will be considered in jurisdiction. If the former, it may still be sometime before we work through all the cases that are waiting to be investigated. If the latter, you may see some quicker progress, but I suspect this will rely on the “goodwill” of the business’ involved.

        Sorry I cannot be more helpful, but at least the issue of final decisions is significant progress.

        • I doubt very much that the blanket approach will be used, as my claim is still getting the “sorry, no progress due to QQ saying your complained to late” remark from the FOS. this was from an update request I issued last Friday.

  51. Surely the compromise from us and the one to offer QQ is that we only receive interest for up to 6 years on these loans. I would be happy to accept this and think it would be a fair and reasonable offer.

    Furthermore if FOS offer this compromise it would put QQ in a difficult position not to accept it on two levels. The first being they could be seen to being unreasonable with FOS offering a compromise and them not. The second and the one I think is most important is the fact QQ could save quite a lot of money in only paying interest for up to 6 years. For each individual case I don’t think we would miss out on huge sums each however collectively QQ will save quite a bit of money.

    Considering it probably is a fair compromise and it could potentially settle this long standing case much quicker I can’t see many people not being happy with this approach?

    • Are you suggesting that the 8% statutory interest is not paid on the loans over 6 years? Or that it is capped at 6 years for each loan however old?

      But I am asking out of curiosity as it is hard to see how either QQ or FOS would find this sort of compromise acceptable as an approach across all cases. If people are due a refund, why should this be less because the loans are older? And for QQ given the very large numbers of cases, the total amounts would refunded would still be very large.

  52. I say this because I am assuming the principle of cutting off reclaim dates is so that people don’t purposely delay claims to accrue interest at 8%. We are all claiming on the rule that we reasonably didn’t know about being able to reclaim and again I can only assume this rule was put in place so that people who legitimately are claiming after 6 years can and those who have simply delayed it to accrue interest cannot.

    Therefore if it is accepted that people are only paid up to 6 years interest on these loans then it negates the need for this rule anyway and loans over 6 years old that can be proven to be unaffordable could still be claimed regardless and without challenge though with a maximum of 6 years worth of 8% interest.

    All of these rules are put in place so they are fair and reasonable for both the supplier and consumer and I think only paying out interest on up to 6 years worth of loans but paying out on all unaffordable loans regardless of age protects both the supplier and consumer and is fair and reasonable.

    • “I am assuming the principle of cutting off reclaim dates is so that people don’t purposely delay claims to accrue interest at 8%. ” no, there has never been any suggestion that people are delaying claiming to get extra interest. The purpose of a cut off is to encourage people to get on with claims, not to minimise the 8% added.

      The 8% statutory interest is what it says, it is interest that is added on to all manner of money claims, see https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/work-out-interest. It would be very strange for it not to be added onto payday loan refunds.

      • What do you mean to “get on with claims”? If you are suggesting that it is to protect businesses so they can minimise risk and allow for such claims in their balance sheet then the whole reclaiming after 6 years “if you reasonably didn’t know” makes it completely invalid. In my case I categorically did not know I could reclaim back because I reclaim every penny I can as soon as I know I can however lets be honest, people who did know they could claim before the 6 years are not going to admit that fact and will simply say they didn’t know, it cannot be proven either way or at least it would be very hard to.

        I think if you believe people wouldn’t/don’t delay claims so they can earn 8% interest which is significantly higher than any interest rate you can get anywhere else then I think you are probably being a bit naive.

        I guess we would never know why the 6 year rule was brought in, the only way to determine it’s purpose is by putting a test case in front of a judge to decide on it however my belief is it is to protect against people delaying claims so they can earn high amounts of interest.

        • Sorry, your belief is simply wrong. Read the two FOS published decisions linked to and discussed here https://debtcamel.co.uk/fos-time-limits-payday-loan-refunds/. There Lender C and Lender D’s lawyers went into exhaustive length about their objections to loans over 6 years being considered by FOS and nowhere is the argument made that people would do this to increase the amount of 8% interest they can get.

          I completely understand that you did not know more than 6 years ago that you had the right to make a complaint about unaffordable lending. And it is VERY likley that you did not know more than 3 years ago, so you are currently in time to complain under the FOS rules.

          There were probably only a handful of what we would now call affordability complaints before 2015. Debt advisers who did research back then could find out that it was a theoretical possibility, but at the time most debt advisers were too busy helping clients to enter DMPs or insolvency, cancel CPAs (at that time not easy), challenging things like fake lawyers letters (Wonga) and unauthorised rollovers (Cash Genie) to be able to step back from the trenches and look at other ways of tacking what was an epidemic of appalling payday lending.

          Only someone who is very well off could consider delaying a payday loan refund claim in order to get an extra year’s 8% interest. That is hardly anyone – most people making these claims have other debts at the moment which they are paying more than 8% interest on so a delay makes no sense at all.

          • surely if you purposely delay a refund request you are putting yourself at risk of the ruling where you have not made the complaint within the relevant timeframes?!

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