Many people are making affordability complaints about payday loans, asking the lender to refund interest. Most lenders are refusing to look at any refunds for payday loans that were taken out more than six years ago, saying the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS) will not consider these cases.
But this isn’t correct! This article looks at the current situation and the implications for your complaint if it involves older loans.
The Financial Ombudsman’s time limits
The FOS website explains its rules as follows:
“six years from the event the consumer is complaining about (or – if later – three years from when the consumer knew, or could reasonably have known, they had cause to complain)“.
These are sometimes referred to as the “six plus three rules”. I don’t like that phrase, it can be confusing as it suggests that the 3 years is an extension, giving a maximum of 9 years, but it is actually a separate timescale.
Many early payday loan complaints involving older loans were rejected
Payday loan affordability complaints started to be made in large numbers at the end of 2015. For the early complaints, loans over 6 years were often not considered as being over the 6 year time limit, but a few were allowed.
Customers kept pointing out they had no idea that they could complain before. Many people had had to get debt advice from Citizens Advice or StepChange and the possibly if a refund had never been mentioned to them – so how could they reasonably be expected to have known?
In the summer of 2016, the FOS put all cases involving any loans over six years old on hold, while they decided whether the “three year” part of their rules meant they can look at these older loans.
November 2016 – Ombudsman decides it can look at earlier loans
In November 2016, letters were sent to the lenders in some of these cases saying:
Having thought about this case in more depth, I think we’re able to look at all the loans given to [borrower].
The letters were identical – the FOS had clearly reached an internal policy decision that it was fair to look at the older loans.
Some of the points the letters made were:
- the borrower would have known that they were in difficulty when they borrowed and may have realised the loans were unaffordable when they were taken out or soon afterwards;
- that doesn’t mean the borrower would have known the lender did something wrong in lending this money. It’s more likely the borrower would have thought they were responsible themselves for taking out these unaffordable loans. But the complaint is that the lender would have known the borrower couldn’t pay these loans back if they had complied with certain lending requirements eg the requirement to lend responsibly.
- if the borrower didn’t realise the lender had done something wrong then he wouldn’t have had cause to complain about it.
- nothing in this case has suggested the borrower was aware, or should really have been aware, they had reason to complain about the fairness of the lending at the time of the loans, or more than three years before the complaint.
- from what the borrower has said, the first time they had reason to complain was [date] when [description of how the borrower found out that the lender should have made affordability checks].
- so as far as [the adjudicator] can see, although the borrower has complained about some of these loans more than six years after they were taken out, all of the loans are within the three year part of the time limit.
Which is exactly what I think.
The lenders were asked if they accepted this
The letter then said:
- if you agree with my conclusion and are prepared to look at the borrower’s complaint about all the loans they had, I’d be grateful if you’d let me know.
- if you disagree with my conclusions, please let me know, telling me your reasons.
- you will also have the right to ask an ombudsman to review the opinion that we can look at the borrower’s complaint about all the loans.
So the lenders were getting a chance to object. This is how the FOS works – both sides are told what the adjudicator is thinking and have a right to comment on it.
March 2017 – Payday UK, Payday Express and the Money Shop start to pay out
Four months later, Instant Cash Loans Ltd – the large lender who owns the Payday UK, Payday Express and the Money Shop brands – accepted the Ombudsman’s general approach and started to pay out on older loans. Some of the first few cases included:
- Susan had 14 loans from Payday Express, nine were over six years old. Ombudsman ruled all loans were unaffordable;
- Craig got a full refund on his Payday UK loans from 2008/9;
- the Money Shop accepted Kerry‘s adjudicator’s decision to refund all her cheque loans from 2009-11.
Annoyingly these three lenders are still sometimes trying to fob people off at the initial complaint stage, saying the Ombudsman won’t look at loans that are more than 6 years old even. See What should you do? below.
Other lenders – still being difficult
In Summer 2017, most other lenders are still objecting to the FOS considering these older loans. This includes Wonga and Quick Quid, 2 of the biggest lenders.
At some point this log jam will be resolved – either the lenders will agree to pay out, or the Ombudsman will lose patience and issue Final Decisions, or the Ombudsman will change its mind. I don’t think that last option is likely!
In September 2017, I am currently optimistic that there will be a final decision soon, so don’t make a hasty decision now that you may later regret.
What should you do?
If a lender tells you the Financial Ombudsman won’t look at loans over 6 years old, don’t believe it!
If you only had a few loans and they were all over 6 years, you may decide not to bother, but if you borrowed repeatedly from the same lender for many months then don’t let yourself be put off. Send your case straight to the Ombudsman, the main payday loan refund page explains how to do this.
Don’t expect these cases to be quick, just sit back and wait. There isn’t anything you can do to speed this up!
Ask for older loans to be ignored?
You can ask for the over 6 year loans to be ignored. If you only had a couple of loans over 6 years this could be a sensible move… but make sure you have a list of your loans before you do this as you won’t be able to change your mind later if you find out it wasn’t just a couple of loans that were older but lots!
You can always send the full case to the FOS and later ask for the older loans to be dropped. It usually takes 2-3 months for a case to be picked up by an adjudicator, and the situation could have changed in that time!
When did you hear about affordability complaints?
If you have loans over 6 years, you are likely to be asked by your adjudicator (the job title of the person at the FOS who is handling your complaint) how and when you found out about affordability complaints.
There is no magic answer you need to give to this – just say what happened to you. It doesn’t matter if you saw a reference to this page in a Facebook group or another website, or if a friend had heard of someone getting a refund and told you, or you saw a news article about refunds from Cash Genie or another lender etc etc.
Any news?
If you want to know if there have been any recent developments, this is the page to check on – as soon as I hear anything I will update this article.
This article was first published in November 2016 – it is kept updated.
Get a refund for doorstep loans
What to put in an affordability complaint
Escaping from the payday loan trap
Scott says
I’m currently having this situation but the adjudicator wants bank statements and a up to date credit report which isn’t a problem apart from the statements as it’s over the time scale to get the statement online I’m going into the bank today to see if I can get them just to add I can send via email but trying to get a file from the credit report is becoming an nightmare as he wants the detailed report if anyone knows where I can do this would be. A great help I’m currently on a site called noodle which was recommended by the adjudicator but still can’t download or save the file.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Hi Scott, if you tell your adjudicator your sort code and account number they can get back bank statements easily. If you ask about Noddle in the comments on the main payday loan refund page https://debtcamel.co.uk/payday-loan-refunds/ someone there will know the answer.
Scott Bird says
Hi Sarah to update on my case I’ve been told by my ajudicator that I have been referred to a team that will in course ring
Me to see if he can look at older loans to which I aske him to do so that’s now been 2 months and still no call from them all in all it’s been 9 months now and starting to really get fed up with the whole thing is this time scale normal ?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Is this QQ? You said that one started in June. Sorry but that seems a pretty normal timescale if some of your loans were over 6 years old. Why not give them a ring and ask what is happening?
Scott Bird says
Hi Sarah yes it’s dreaded QQ ! I email my adjudicator regularly he is really helpful he keeps checking the list for the team to ring me and I am on it so seems they are looking at a lot of loans over 6 years now or investigating if they can allow the adjudicator to proceed just hope they let him after all this waiting
Morag says
Sara,
I have just spoke to my adjudicator and they are telling me this is not true, can you provide me with any letters???
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I have now seen several identical letters, which is what this article has been based on.
I’m sorry but I can’t forward you other people’s letters. It is very kind of people to send me this sort of information, it benefits everyone here. It’s only fair that their privacy should be protected and that they shouldn’t have to worry that their adjudicators will be upset in any way.
s williams says
My adjudicator has now written to Quick Quid asking them to consider my loans older than 6 years. Thy have 2 weeks to reply.
Ally says
Sara
I wonder if you could advise me on something. I have put in complaints to payday uk, payday express and TMS. Both payday uk and payday express have come back and said they are not at fault and carried out full checks. Nothing from TMS yet. My question is could I ask my adjudicator to put these as one claim against instant cash loans? As in 4 consecutive months these 3 companies lent me £1,450 my wages were only £1,200 and they said they carried out full checks!
Thanks for all the help and advice
Ally
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You can ask the first adjudicator if they can also pick up the other complaints. But they are usually treated as separate complaints.
Claire says
So WDA rejected the adjudicator’s decision. Adjudicator has referred to the ombudsman and they’ve informed me that it could be three months before it is assigned to an ombudsman to review. Really!!!
Miles says
An Ombudsman had informed me via email that the 3 year rule still hasn’t been decided yet.
Why are they still in confusion about this?
You would have thought they could get together and make a decision, but according to this thread, maybe they have but haven’t told this particular Ombudsman, which seemd strange doesn’t it?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I can’t explain this. But it is clear, from quite a few different people plus the standard letters than have been going out to lenders, that a decision has been made. I suggest waiting a week or two then asking again.
Morag says
Miles, it’s the same with me , I’ve been told that they have not came to a decision, this is from 3 different adjucticators, I’m confused!!!!!
Simon says
Hi Morag,
Same situation here, one adjudicator sent the letters saying my 2 cases with wonga and pd exp could be looked at over 6 years, wonga disagreed and it went to ombudsman Feb but could 3 months to be picked up, pd exp didn’t respond and also got passed over to ombudsman. Different story however with my case against 247, it got upheld in November including loans older than 6 years but somehow it still hasn’t been passed over to an ombudsman because the FOS weren’t sure how they were handling these as a rule yet. So it seems some are getting through and others delayed but this could be case situation dependant.
VT says
Dear all
I just came across this website and have sent of emails to ten Payday loan companies some going back as far as 2008. So far I have had 5 respond to my email with statements (QQ, Lending Stream, Uncle Buck, MyJar (said within 3 days) Northway Financial (Pounds Til Payday). I have replied to all 5. One Lender (Lending Stream) has come back with an offer £472.50 and have stated they would pay ‘some of interest’!
I replied…
‘Thank you for your reply.
The Offer to refund the ‘some of interest’ paid towards the stated loan accounts amounting to £472.50 is way below what is owed to me and I would like you to revise your offer as detailed in my previous email.
As stated in my previous email you should never have given me these unaffordable loans. I would like to ask you to refund the interest and extra charges I paid. The Financial Ombudsman suggests that statutory interest is added to this sort of refund. I would also mention the strain this has placed on my credit file and personal circumstances.
If the next offer is deemed unsatisfactory or no further offer is submitted I will take my claim to the Financial Ombudsman Service.
I look forward to your swift response.’
If Lending Stream don’t reply, how long should i wait to take it to the ombudsman. Is my offer safe, even though I have asked them to rethink their offer?
I trust my original offer is protected. Plus no news from Wonga, Minicredit, Mr Lender, PDUK regarding statements, early days still but is it worth chasing by phone for this info?
Thanks for your help on this, brilliant site!
Mags says
My complaint with Payday UK is now on hold with the Ombudsman pending the review of the older loans.
I was so close to accepting an offer about 2 months ago…hey ho I guess I must be patient.
Jack says
I had around 10 loans from 2009 which are outside of the 6 year window.
My Ombudsman has asked me to clarify when I felt that the lender had ‘done something wrong regarding the loans they agreed for me’.
I’m not sure what to answer as I’m not 100% sure at what point exactly I felt they should not have lent to me – although it was probably right from the outset. If that is the case, would it mean that they can’t look at my older loans? I’m getting a bit confused about the 6 + 3 rule…does it effectively mean 9 years in total from when you first complain?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You may have felt back in 2010 or 2011 that you shouldn’t have been given these loans as they just made your position worse. But it is unlikely at that point that you knew the lender had done any wrong because they should have checked for affordability. Most people would have thought then that a loan that you repaid was affordable!
An answer such as “I knew the loans weren’t really helping me soon after I took them out, because I had to keep borrowing more. But I didn’t realise then that a loan that I could only repay by borrowing was “unaffordable” and that the lender had done anything wrong by giving me the loans. I first heard about affordability checks and what the lender should have done in [January 2016] when [a friend told me about refunds being given.]” gets this across. Obviously change this so it is accurate for you.
I don’t like using the “6+3” terminology as I feel it is confusing. There is no situation where it is right to add 6 and 3 together to get a period of 9 years. Instead you have 6 years from the date of the event you are complaining about OR 3 years from the point you became aware that you had a reason to complain.
So your point is that you have only realise recently that the lender had done anything wrong and that you could complaint.
Jack says
Thanks very much, Sara! I really do appreciate it.
Miles says
“I don’t like using the “6+3” terminology as I feel it is confusing. There is no situation where it is right to add 6 and 3 together to get a period of 9 years. Instead you have 6 years from the date of the event you are complaining about OR 3 years from the point you became aware that you had a reason to complain.”
Now you have really confused me Sara, earlier on this page you say it’s 6 plus 3 but this quote you say 6 OR 3
Surely it’s 6 plus 3?
So if you didn’t realise you could complain until lets say today, you can go back 9 years to Dec 2007
Could you clarify for everyone’s sake?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Actually on this page I said it’s sometimes referred to as “6+3” – I’ve now clarified this to say I don’t like that term!
The reason why I don’t like it is there is no reason to add 6 and 3 together to get 9. There is a 6 years rule. And there is a three year rule. Take the example of someone who took out a payday loan in 2006, 10 years ago. There weren’t many payday loans around then, but it is possible. That person only found out in January 2016 about affordability complaints – they can take their complaint to the Ombudsman. The fact that it is older than 9 years is irrelevant, what matters is that it is within three years of the point they found out they could complaint.
Morag says
Finally my adjucticator is looking at loans pre 2010 from provident, here’s hoping they have all the information to give the FOS i.e., agreements etc , history of payments
Mags says
Fingers crossed you get a quick reply!
Morag says
Thanks, he said there won’t be anything until , at least after the new year! , he said he had 500 pages with provident and 400 with Greenwoods and that’s not the loans before 2010,,,
waited this long, extra loans to look at …one in 07 , 4 in 08 and 4 in 09, and a few before may 10.😊😊😛
Any success with loans before 2010???
Sara (Debt Camel) says
what does he mean “500 pages” ?
morag says
500 pages of information from provident, including loan agreements , historical data etc
Nim says
HI, I initially thought I had my 1st loan from Provident in July 2010, as this showed on the credit file. I had around 6/7 loans taken out until dec 2011. However, I received a final response from Provident – basically rejected my complaint, but they also sent copies of all the paper agreements and to my surprise, I actually took my 1st loan out in October 2006!! So, I updated my complaint to the FOS saying that I was unaware until I got all the statements, but previously when I asked, they only sent through from Dec 2011 and said they don’t’ have any records!
So now it looks like I have a total of around 15 loans continuously borrowing, on top of payday loans over the last 6 years. I hope that they look at these too and will update as I worked out I paid nearly 8-9k interest!
Best Nim
Morag says
Nim
My complaint has been with the FOS since May and was allocated an anju ticator very quickly but as you know , it was on hold as there were loans pre 2010. Finally my adjucticator got the go ahead to look at the additional loans.
I have 12 before 2010 with provident, one in 2007, and 9 pre 2010 with Greenwoods.
I am happy, just like yourself as I have paid well over 5/6000 interest in just these alone!!
The only problem my adjucticator says that the company may not provide any documents as they are not obliged to keep them , only for 6 years!! So I may be harder to say if they were affordable or not,
Luckily I do have bank stAtement and an old credit report.i have seen it is very hard to get anything back from provident as there hasn’t been a great deal that has been upheld.
For myself, I have requested a sar , for £10.00, as they provide all information about yourself, I think it will be worth it , in case they don’t give my adjucticator any information .this takes 40 days
What’s your position with the FOS at the moment!!!
Keep me updated
Nim says
Hi Morag, thanks for updating.
As I mentioned, they had copies of my loan agreements which they sent to me from 2006! so surprised they did not sent this to you? These were sent with my final response letter.
Anyway its just gone to adjudicator, last week, but they are all on holiday till 3rd jan. Am hoping it’s settled quickly as I have sent all documentation. Cross finger if I can get all my interest refunded!!!
Best Nim
Morag says
My adjucticator told me it’s a very complex complaint, as there were over 500 pages sent over from provident!that he has to look into, no doubt yours will be the same, I have had agreements from provident only from 2010, I don’t think they r happy that the FOS is looking at complaints before this!!!. Hopefully a positive answer, but I don’t expect anything too soon!!!
Nim says
HI, Morag, any update on Vanquis? if this was on your list too as they are part of Provident too as their contact address is the same.
Nim
Sara (Debt Camel) says
A repayment option plan is PPI under another name . If you were told you had to have it, that is a mis-selling case. See http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/ppi-loan-insurance#general.
My advice is not to mix up a PPI complaint and affordability complaint. Put in two separate complaints. separated by several weeks. they will go to 2 quite different teams at the FOS.
Edited: here is my new article on catalogue/credit card complaints – https://debtcamel.co.uk/refunds-catalogue-credit-card/.
Nim says
Hi , ok great, thanks Sara. I will keep you posted.
In your experience has anyone succeeded with Vanquis complaint? and sure will put in 2 separate complaints. Thanks for advice.
Hope you had a lovely xmas.
Best Nim
Morag says
They may have your loan agreements but no payment history of what u have paid or missed payment, I think it’s called historical data, did they send you this?? I see they did with me! from 2008
Nim says
HI, no, they did not send any historical data,. However, only mentioned in the final letter re the last 6years of loan payments saying I made 165 payments of which 15 were late payments and payments from Dec 2011 Loan took longer than normal as I was having difficulty and only just paid off Oct 2016…..so no mention of any thing from 2006 – 2011 about loan payments history etc.
I hope I have a good case!
Best
Nim
Varoujan Tekerian says
Minicredit query.
Hi, I have been chasing Opus for statements for my loans with Minicredit but they have come back with this and I have hit a bit of a dead end now? Minicredit appear to be no more and Opus state they have no files for me?!
Sara – Can you pls advise on next steps?
Please see Opus reply below.
‘Good Afternoon
As I explained previously we do not hold an account in your name and so I cannot provide you with a statement.
Please note that Kapama Limited did purchase a small number of accounts from Mini Credit in 2014 and these are being managed by Opos Limited. However, your account with them was not purchased.
Therefore, any request should be made to the lender as neither Kapama Limited or Opos Limited hold any jurisdiction over any account you may have had with Mini Credit.
It is unfortunate that I cannot assist you any further or provide you with any further information.
Kind Regards’
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You can ask the Financial Ombudsman but this may indeed be a dead end.
VT says
Thanks Sara, I’ve just called Payday UK. After emailing countless times and being refused a copy of my statements, I called and asked for them and they have only sent me statements since 2010. I have had multiple loans with them going back as far as 2008! I called again today and asked why they didn’t send all historical statements, interest and charges as requested and they stated that ‘they are not required to hold data for longer than 6 years and my complaint will be looked at for post 2010 statements. I am around 12 days from their full and final response and can predict that (if they offer) it will be low and reflecting post 2010 statements discounting historical transactions. Should I wait for there offer/ rejection or just start the ball rolling with the FOS anyway? Also, to claify with the 8% interest. if the total sum is e.g. £1000 is it a standard 8% on top of that so total due £1,080 or will it be 8% per annum on the loan since you’ve had the loan (closed or not). E,G. £1,000 in 2010 is 8% for 6/7 years from the date the loan was opened. If a loan was 2012 – same applies, so multiple loans will have different % amounts dependent on duration or just a flat 8% fee? Thanks!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
1) wait for the Final Offer unless it is already 8 weeks since you put in your complaint, in which case you can go to the FOS now.
2) if you had a lot of loans pre 2010 you may feel it is worth paying 310 to get a Subject Access Request – this will detail everything Payday Uk is still holding about you. See https://debtcamel.co.uk/ico-money-shop/. Of course this is 310 you are spending and there is no guarantee that you will get a refund in the ned, or indeed that the lender does still have the data. But you may decide this is worth it.
3) 8% interest is paid on the amounts being refunded to you, ie it is “interest on the interest that you paid”,. not on the full loan amount. It is 8% for each year from the date you paid each interest payment. See https://debtcamel.co.uk/interest-payday-loan-refunds/ for more info.
Good luck!
VT says
Thanks Sara
Just like that I had a reply from PDUK (ironically a few hours after I called) with a final response letter with no offer at all!!
Going straight to the FOS!
Thanks.
denise says
Hi I have just come across this and knew nothing of being able to claim refunds as for the last 3 years i have lived abroad.
I started taking payday loans back in 2010 which i rolled over or retook out a few days later. I was at one time borrowing from 7 companies at a time which amounted to more than my monthly income. I ended up having a breakdown and losing everything after being made redundant due to illness. The last loan was mid 2014. Would it still be worth me trying to attempt for refunds.? Im a bit wary about speaking with any of these people now remembering the constant texts and calls towards the end.:( 98 per cent were paid in full by payment arrangements. Others would still lend while i was struggling to pay others. I still have my bank statement from that time.
Sorry im a bit slower these days where would i start? template letter to the lenders?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Definitely worth making complaints! Just go steady, there is no rush, you may want to start with a few of the lenders you think you used most, you don’t have to do them all at once. It’s great you still have your bank statements, makes some of this a bit easier :)
Template letters are over on this article: https://debtcamel.co.uk/payday-loan-refunds/ and below that is where most people comment, so you can see how other people are doing. Good luck!
Duane says
Can someone help me. Received this question my my adjudicator today:
Just one last question, can I just ask what exactly was that made you realise you could complain?
Don’t want to say the wrong thing
Sara (Debt Camel) says
There isn’t really a “wrong” answer. Presumably 18 months ago you had no idea what an affordability complaint was or that you may have one against a payday lender for loans that you repaid in full and on time? Then say how you found out about them … did a friend tell you, or did you see a link on Facebook or did you come across it accidentally looking for some other information… say how you found out and when, and then when you puit your first complaint in.
Sarah says
Hi Everyone
I’m currently waiting on the 6+3 decision from the Ombudsman … adjudicator said that they could be looked at but QQ has objected … has anyone heard anything or is it still “imminent”
Morag says
Hi
I have many loans with provident and my adjucticator said the ombudsman will look at these! I am afraid I don’t have anymore information regarding this. A decision will be made sooner rather than later to see if the complaint is upheld.
Duane says
Likewise Morag. Provident had until yesterday to reply as to whether or not they allow my older loans to be considered. Knowing what they are like they would probably have said no. Is that similar to you?
Morag says
My adjucticator hasn’t mentioned that yet, he said he can now look into the older loans., that was in December.
The loans start from 2007. I have got both provident and Greenwoods and the FOS has has this since May.
He updated me yesterday and said that basically, he has now managed to look through all the information and a decision will be made soon.maybe not the 2 but 1 to start with.
Have u many loans????
Duane says
Only 7 with provident so fingers crossed but they were pretty much 1 after another
Sarah says
I’ve got 27 loans with QQ starting in 2008 … I was told in September/November the FOS could look at the older loans but as usual QQ just ignored this so I’ve been in the queue since November for an ombudsman … my adjudicator did update me in February to say that the FOS are trying to work with the lenders (including QQ) to come to an agreement for all older loans so if that works an ombudsman won’t have to review it but as it stands I’m still in the queue whilst the corporate decisions are being made … QQ offered me 0, 2500 and then 4000 so hopefully I get over 6000 back
Jaqueline says
My case has been with FOS since last Aug/ Sept and subsequently put on hold whilst they look into the 6 year case – I’ve called today to be told, that it now has now adjudicator on the case and it’s still waiting for a decision about the 6 year ruling – one person stated it was still on hold ? – having read your article earlier on this page it looks like it was lifted
FOS have stated that if the company refuse to give business file they arnt able to rule therefore in my case it looks like wonga are refusing my file based on jurisdiction – some of my loans fall out of the 6 years but none fall out of 6+3
FOS are saying it’s still waiting jurisdication ruling
It all hinges on the fact that the company have refused to give my file out
I’m not sure what to think – any advice? It appears so confusing
Sara (Debt Camel) says
From what I can see, the FOS is taking some cases through at the moment but I am guessing they want the first ones all the way through before moving all the waiting ones on to the next stage. Sorry, I know must seem opaque and frustrating, but I hope this is going to come good in the end.
Jaqueline says
I’m just concerned that if wonga have refused to give out my file and have seemingly given incorrect info to FOS about dates of my loans my case will close ? does anyone know has anyone been told about this / had this happen to them
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Do you have your bank statements? Because they can be good proof of what the loans were.
I’m not really expecting this to be an issue for you though. I appreciate you are concerned but I am afraid there is little alternative to sitting back while this gets sorted.
Jaqueline says
Unfortunately this is what FOS advisor has said no amount of proof from me will make it happen – if the company won’t give them the file they won’t deal with it – I feel this is unfair but they won’t budge – they can’t pass judgement without the file
Sara (Debt Camel) says
At the moment you are caught up in the 6 year situation. I think you have to wait until that is resolved before seeing what your situation is.
Joe says
Hi, we are complaining about loans just outside the 6 year limit, Wonga refused, so with the ombudsman now. Yesterday received an email from the ombudsman that they have sent to Wonga stating that we are within the three years of discovering there may have been some irresponsible lending and they tell Wonga that they should look at our complaint. They then go on to say if Wonga disagrees, please provide information as to why.
This is a good thing right? Do you know what happens next?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Yes, this is a good thing. There isn’t going to be a blanket rule that ALL loans over 6 years years old will be considerd because you may have known 5 years ago that you could complain and you choose not to. Of course hardly anyone knew more than 3 years ago, but it’s possible so the FO has to give the lender a chance to object, either saying that you did know, or for some other reason.
What happens next depends on whether Wonga disagrees. There isn’t a track record, you are all pioneering here… let us know what happens to you!
Joe says
We have that email that Wonga sent out in 2015 stating we wouldn’t have qualified under there new eligibility for loans. Wonga’s final response to us includes the line, “you should have realised at the time of your final loan it was unaffordable as you couldn’t repay it, so should have complained then” so they that has both helped our complaint.
The ombudsman have told them that they should look at all of our loans as they were rolled over and topped up continuously.
I will keep you informed of any updates, Wonga have until the 20th of Feb to respond.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Yes, most people did realise their payday loans were causing them a lot of problems and having to borrow again at the time – but that doesn’t mean they had any idea that the lender should have considered this before lending as they had no idea what an “affordability complaint” was!
Joe says
Can Wonga ignore or refuse to accept the ombudsman recommendations? Our complaint seems to have taken only a few weeks to get to this point, and I can see for most it is a long wait. Just confused as to what stage are we at.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
(I’m sorry I don’t know how much you know, so some of this may be obvious to you.)
The ombudsman has a two stage process in general. For the first stage a complaint is considered by an adjudicator. Most complaints are settled at this level, but if the customer or the firm will not accept the adjudicator’s decsion, it goes to the second stage where it is considered by an Ombudsman. A Final Decision from an Ombudsman is binding on the firm. (Technically it isn’t binding on the customer who can reject it in which case the only way forward for the customer is in the courts, but it’s usually safe to ignore this as impractical.)
People who had cases involving loans older than 6 years got caught up in prolonged delays last year whilst the FOS decided what to do with these cases. They seem to have reached the pretty fair decision that that can look at them if the customer was unaware they could have complained earlier. A lender has to be given the right to object to this decision and take it to the ombudsman level. If for example you had yourself worked for a firm in a role involving credit decisions or regulation, your payday lender could perhaps argue that you should have understood the concept of affordability and could have complained within the 6 year limit. NB I just invented that example, there could be other cases in which a firm would want to argue that you should have complained earlier.
The unknown element here is whether the lenders will accept the ombudsman’s decisions that the older loans will be generally considered or look for a legal challenge, which could probably (but I am not a lawyer!) only be by Judicial Review.
People who put in cases last year including older loans have sometimes had a very protracted wait – originally the more recent loans may have been considered, which could have taken several months, then it may have gone into a wait period whilst the FOS considered its general approach to older loans, then only a few cases were at first picked out to have the initial letters sent to the lenders about the older loans etc. Especially if the lender was one that supplied the FOS with little or no information along the way.
VT says
Hi
I have 3 loands with the FOS now. Quick Quid, Payday UK and Wonga. All 3 lenders have loans going back as far as 2008 and ending in 2014. i have sent the FOS the statements from all 3 companies and the complaint letter. The FOS have asked for bank statements around the time of the loans and credit files. The bank i used for Payday loans etc was closed in 2014. I don’t have any statements. Plus, I had 2 accounts running, one for my wages, direct debits etc and one for PD loans. The bills etc were also on a joint account card which i paid a lump sum into. So in terms of the FOS seeing bank statements etc it would be problematic to a). get the info, b). makes sense of everything as multiple accounts looking after different things. C). Can they carry on the investigation without this info. I also don’t have any credit reports from 2008-2014 but have some from 2015 and 2016 – but they won’t be relevant to the time of borrowing? Any advice on the FOS and what they need?
Rich says
I have this situation with PDUK & Wonga, with the majority of loans taken longer than six years ago. Both cases have been with the FOS since September 2016. Frustratingly (but unusually as I’ve had others resolved much more quickly) various adjudicators have been assigned to the cases (I’m now on my fourth adjudicator!) I’m no nearer a resolution. In fairness, the current adjudicator always gets back to me quickly, but so far at least, has been pretty ineffectual. Last communication received (following my monthly chase) was this: “With the six year rule the key dates are when the incident happened (in the case the date each loan was sold) and the date that the complaint was raised (when you first contacted us). It is the gap between these two dates we look at. The length of time that we have the complaint, in this case around 5 months, wouldn’t impact the outcome.” Fingers crossed, things start to move soon :-)
Scott Bird says
Exactly the same for me except I’ve been told by my adjudicator that a team from the jurisdiction team have to ring me to ask some questions and that now it is up to them if they decide if he can go back on older loans with QQ I’ve been awaiting this call now since November so don’t hold your breath I did ask the question and even quoted cases from this site and he said that each case is looked at individually but there does seem to be some that go ahead with it and others end up
Like me and you fingers crossed it’s worth it after all this
Mags says
My case is still on hold – it has not been worked on since October 2016.
My complaint is against Payday UK.
Duane says
Update. My provident complaint has today been resolved with a payment due to me for just less than 1000 which includes 1 loan from 2009.
That’s all mine done with nearly 3500 claimed back. Took just short of a year but it was well worth it.
Thanks to Sara and everyone on here and thanks to my adjudicator from the FOS. He was fantastic every step of the way.
Joe says
Well done,
our adjudicator wrote to Wonga saying to refund our interest even though it was over 6 years old. Wonga had a deadline of the 20th, but have not budged. We called today and was basically told by our adjudicater to stop calling, as it’s now out of his hands and we have to wait for a decision on older loans. No time frames, no idea now.
Was it the FOS that forced their hand for you?
Well done again
Joseph Campbell says
Good evening Sarah, I hope you are well.
Thanks to you I have now had refunds from Money Shop and QQ so very happy.
The only outstanding one is Cheque Centre where it seems to be on hold due to the over 6 year issue. I basically borrowed from 2007 to 2014 so I will be due a whopping redund if upheld bit I was wondering if you know why there is a hold up with the over 6 year cases? My adjudicator decided that he could look at cases over 6 years but Cheque Centre rejected this and it’s been with the ombudsman for a few months.
Any intel would be greatly appreciated to understand how long I’m likely going to have to wait.
Cheers
Joseph
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No intel, sorry. I *think* the FO is pushing a few cases with each lender in the hope of getting a lender to agree/accept/stop fighting every case.
Scott Bird says
I sent my claim last July to QQ it’s been with my adjudicator now since October I was told I have to wait for jurisdiction team to ring me to let him know if they can look at older loans I’ve still had no phone call starting to give up ! QQ didn’t even reply to me when I first started I believe they have been in contact with adjudicator but starting to loose hope
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Call them and ask for an update? I don’t beleive in hassling the FO – it wastes their resources answering the calls – but October is a long while ago…
Scott Bird says
Hi Sarah I keep in contact via email with my adjudicator as I don’t like to hassle them,he has no updates but is going to chase the jurisdiction team up for a update for me I’ll keep you posted
Wiggles says
just adding my notes to this, have had this from my adjudicator for a wonga claim:
Thank you for your email dated 3 March 2017.
Since you brought your complaint to us, Wonga has said that we can’t look at the loans you took out more than six years before you complained.
We’re not yet in a position to give you an answer on whether we’ll be able to look at all of your loans. And it’s still possible we might not be able to or that we may need to contact you about this. But we’re also aware that you’ve been waiting for a while. So we’ve reviewed what we have on your case, just to make sure we have everything we need in the meantime.”
I have replied with the 6+3 ruling screen shot from there website and i hope it gets sorted soon
Scott Bird says
I tried this and quoted the website he said that means nothing and every case is looked at individually I’ve been awaiting a phone call now since November from the jurisdiction team to see if my adjudicator can look at older loans hopefully yours won’t be as long but I wouldn’t hold much hope in it being a quick one going on mine
Wiggles says
Yeah im waiting to see what is happening with it all. just pisses me off that the rules are there but some companies think they can get around it
Wiggles says
Wonga made an offer of 3.6k for the within 6 years loans, but they are still not budging on the over 6 years and the FoS are still looking in to it. not sure what i should do as its a 69% offer of what i have paid totally
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Well it’s a serious amount of money. How much interest did you pay on those loans they are offering to refund? How much interest did you pay on the older than 6 year loans?
Do you think that is a fair result? I’me not saying you should or shouldn’t, it’s a very personal thing.
Were your loans pretty much back to back or were there large gaps?
Wiggles says
Well i borrowed 13.8K and paid back 19.1K so just over 5.2k Interest. the main issue is that the first 25 loans are outside of the 6 years but would fall under the extra 3 years for the “I did not know I could complain” the Adju is stating this in the email
“As you are aware, Wonga have raised that the first 25 loans you took out with them are outside of our jurisdiction to consider as they were taken out more than six years ago.
Wonga is making you an offer
We’re still currently looking into whether we can consider these loans or not. However, Wonga has let us know that there were seven loans where you repaid more than 40% of your monthly salary. Because of this they’d like to offer a refund of the interest and charges applied to these loans.
Once 8% simple interest has been added to your refund, it totals £3,620.55. Wonga have also let us know that these loans will be removed from your credit file.”
Now im not sure if that is all the loans after the 6 year cutoff, and the waiting game of if they can look at the older loans is a gamble to take. Im edging the part of taking the 3.6k now and being done with wonga even though waiting to see would be better.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Making a guess, the £5.2 in interest would probably go up to 7-8k once 8% interest is added. So you are being offered less than half what you might get.
You can ask to know exactly which loans are being refunded. Have you added up how many loans you had that are less than 6 years old and what the interest is on these? I think you should do the maths – you more you know, the more comforatble you will feel that you found out the info before making the decision.
Wiggles says
I have ended up taking the offer, the 8% does not add up to much tbh as its only £400 ish as that is all they will give overall.
The loans before the 6 years is £1,489 in interest and the money is kinda needed now, I know waiting I might get a better offer BUT if i have to wait 6 more months or even more for them to decide if they can look back over the loans over the 6 year limit it would just be disheartening when they come back and its not as much as now. Plus as this is an offer from Wonga they could withdraw it at any time.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
“as that is all they will give overall” I don’t know what that means.
But if you think the offer is fair, then that’s fine!
Choc says
Hi
I took out a pay day loan with Wonga almost 6 years ago, about 2 years ago I got an email from them stating my debt was written off. I did default on payments prior to that email. Are they obliged to remove the default from my credit report, since the debt was written off?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I think they usually deleted the debts they were writing of… I suggest asking them to do this,
Aaron jackson says
I have had 25 loans just a few months out the 6 year period and about 55 within it.
I then decided to disregard the older loans so I told the FOS, but then TheFOS has since said they can’t even look in to the 55 loans within the 6 year period untill they know what’s going on with the 25 loans I taken out out the 6 year period.
Wonga are refusing to budge, and I can’t even get the loans within the 6 year period looked at because I’ve had older ones. Been with the FOS 50 days now, I expect it to be with them for months and months now.
Sam j says
Has anyone had any further updates on the over 6 years loans? I got confirmed that my loans over 6 years should be looked at but QQ are refusing to agree so my adjudicator said it is with jurisdiction to resolve but it’s this is dragging now! I’ve had an offer of £1300 for loans that are within 6
Months but I don’t want to accept as if I do my complaint will be deemed as closed and I can’t then look at the older loans
Sara (Debt Camel) says
How many of your loans are over 6 years?
Payday Uk is now paying out on older loans. That is good news for you but it doesn’t help with any indication of how long this may take.
Sam j says
Hi Sara,
I have over 25 loans that’s are 6 years old, as where the under 6 years is about 8 loans! Well hopefully with payday now paying out for older loans these others will follow suit….
sally says
I have just received £6400 into my bank account for loans from 2007 – 2012, 3 weeks after i signed the settlement form. I received the breakdown email and payment on the same day :). This was from Payday UK. I started the process in August 2016. They originally said no they were not going to look into them and then out of the blue they offered all interest plus 8% plus credit file wiped. I now just need to claim back the tax of £547.
Now Wonga are a different matter. They have made me a 2 offers of £1045 for 41 loans between 2007 and 2012. I’ve rejected them !! I estimate a possible £10,000 refund if my case is successful. At the moment is sounds as though it is stuck in no mans land. I am prepared to wait as you would imagine. We will see.
Is anyone getting anywhere with Wonga? Sarah, any news? Are they cracking yet?
Patience is the name of the game but it is well worth it.
Thank you once again Sarah
Karen says
Hi Sally
Congrats on getting a refund from paydayuk. I too had a refund £1800 in April 2017 iput in my complaint to Fos after paydayuk point blank refuse my complaints. This ess back in sept 2016. My loans were from 6 + years old.
At the same time I put in my Wonga complaint, but to date Wonga refuse to consider my complaint as they are 6 years and older. My complaint is still with the jurisdiction team.
But did you state that Wonga actually offer you a refund on loans over 6 years?
Maybe they are slowly cracking.
richard says
had this reply from quid market is it worth escalating to the fos?
Your first application, for £150, was made on 27th Jan 2014. The agreement was for 4 days, and the contractual repayment date was 31st Jan 2014.
You provided the following personal and financial information [edited]
· Your monthly income, after tax, was £1,249
· Your monthly disposable income was £670
You were asked and confirmed that the details you had provided were correct. We checked and confirmed both your employment details (by calling you at your place of work), and your bank details
You repaid the loan one day early, on 30th Jan 2014.
Your next application, for £225, was made on 3rd Feb 2014; 4 days after you repaid your previous loan. The agreement was for 25 days, and the contractual repayment date was 28th Feb 2014.
This application, for £300, was made 12th Mar 2014; 13 days after you repaid your previous loan. The agreement was for 19 days, and the contractual repayment date was 31st Mar 2014.
This application, for £225, was made on 2nd Apr 2014; 2 days after you repaid your previous loan. The agreement was for 29 days, and the contractual repayment date was 30th April 2014.
Your next application, for £375, was made on 2nd May 2014; 2 days after you repaid your previous loan. The agreement was for 28 days, and the contractual repayment date was 30th May 2014.
This application, for £400, was made on 4th Jun 2014; 5 days after you repaid your previous loan. The agreement was for 27 days, and the contractual repayment date was 30th Jun 2014.
You were unable to make the payment due on 30th Jun 2014. You telephoned on 4th Jul 2014 to advise that the issue was a glitch with your bank. QuidMarket agreed not to charge you the Default fee as you were a good customer, and that you advised the funds would be due shortly.
On the 14th Jul 2014 you called again to advise there was dispute between your bank and your employer regarding your wages, and would update us again soon.
You state that you had other debts and problems including arrears, defaults and late payments. The CRA checks that were undertaken revealed nothing to indicate the serious financial difficulties you imply in your complaint. I also note that you advised us that you were not in financial hardship on every application you made.
The information you have provided now indicates that you were paying £200 per month interest payments on other debts, but this level of indebtedness was not revealed on the CRA searches? I also note that you advised us that your monthly take home salary at the time was £1,249. However, you now state that this was £1,200.
Due to the above I am not upholding your complaint.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I have shortened their very long reply which included details such as your employer’s name.
I think this is worth taking to the FOS. You borrowed for 6 months in a row, and for 4 for these times you borrowed more than the previous month.
Aaron jackson says
Has anybody had any refund at all from wonga over the 6 year period?
Sally says
I’ve had offers of around £1000 which I have rejected. I took 47 loans over 4 years so I’m playing the waiting game. There doesn’t appear to be any movement either way. I put my complaint in Sept 2016. When can I request it moves up to ombudsman level? Surely 10 months is long enough? As with Aaron, I would be interested to hear if anyone has had any success.
Scott says
Nope still nothing all I’ve been told is I’m one of the first to be reviewed I’m still at adjudicator stage as I got stuck in this 6 years rule I’ve been waiting also since may 2016 had no offer from quick quid in fact I didn’t even get a reply from them sent to ombudsman and they started replying to him they tried to only look at 2 loans as others was over 6 years but I don’t know if Sarah can confirm but I’ve heard that if quick quid say that paying these over 6 year loans could make them bankrupt it’s a not happening I’m starting to believe that something like this is happening from quick quids end that’s why it’s taking so long that’s my view it’s not confirmed by anyone else
But they are fighting this and must have something the others havnt in the pipe line because I would have thought if the others agreed to pay the 6 years then surely the ombudsman has ground to make quick quid ? It’s getting frustrating now and I just hope it’s all worth it the over 6 years loans was probably only 3 but went on for about 3 years of constantly running over to the next month who knows I’ll have to wait and see but I’ve a feeling its going to be a crap offer !!!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
“I’ve heard that if quick quid say that paying these over 6 year loans could make them bankrupt it’s a not happening ”
Large though some of these payouts sound, I don’t think there is the slightest chance of QQ going bankrupt.
It#s natural to feel that things can’t be going well. All I can say is that the Financial Ombudsman wouldn’t be going through this process if it didn’t expect to get what it wants. And it knows far more about it then we do.
Aaron jackson says
There all with the “jurisdiction team”
I don’t understand why there struggling with wonga.
I mean wonga is refusing yes, but if you didn’t realise you could complain, like we didn’t, then why is it a problem!? Why can’t the adjudicators say the customer didn’t realise he could make an affordability complaint, they are within the 6 + 3 limit so please send us the files.
Wonga just refuses outright and my adjudicator basically said aslong as they keep refusing to give the files over, there’s nothing they can do.
I know it’s a waiting game….. but I’m just going to try my best to get them to look at the loans within the 6 year limit. I will lose half of the entire interest I have paid… but I can’t see wonga caving in, they are obviously allowed to refuse, if they weren’t they wouldn’t refuse. Because of this, I’m just going to take my chances, and as you say you’ve been waiting since Sep 2016. Mine was early Jan 2017 and I just want to put this case to bed. Good luck if your hanging in but I feel the FOS won’t get anywhere with wonga loans over 6 years.
Karen says
Hi I have had loans with Wonga that are over 6 years old. I initially put my complaint in September 2016. It has been nearly a year and still no luck.
Have you had any luck yet?
Joe says
We spoke to FOS on Tuesday, apparently it’s now with the lead Ombudsman who will hopefully have a final decision on older loans with in weeks that Wonga should abide by. Not holding our breathe, but that’s the first time we have been informed of a possible change in situation for months.
KAREN says
Hi Joe,
What is meant by lead ombudsman? Does this mean they are superior ombudsman and do they have the authority to make them payout on loans over 6 years.
Joe says
The lady we spoke to suggested that this will then force Wonga into complying with their findings. we don’t actually know if this is actually 100% true, but as I said, it’s the first time we have been told that it is possibly within sight of ending and by the sounds of it they make final decisions on complaints.
Anon37 says
Sara can you shed any light on this? If true could be good for everyone
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I have no specific knowledge of what is currently happening; the following is guesswork.
Lead Ombudsman is a senior ombudsman, as you would expect.
A final decision by any Ombudsman is legally binding on a firm. A business can’t lodge a further appeal because they think it is wrong. A firm could go to court for a judicial review, but that would generally be focussing on the way the ombudsman has made the decision, not the actual decision itself.
I suspect this is why the FOS has gone through such a painstaking and thorough approach to these over 6 years decisions. By giving the businesses every opportunity to raise issues and reply to them, it makes it less likely that a judicial review would succeed.
jakki070 says
I made a complaint regarding loans with Wonga in February 17 dated from 2007/08/09. My adjudicator did an assessment and upheld my complaint. They received a late response from Wonga with the jurisdiction objection. My adjudicator said it may still take months for a decision to be made regarding the 6+3. I guess this is going to be a VERY long waiting game.
Karen says
Hi
I contacted the Fos today re my wonga complaint for loans 2009 – 2011
They wrote me an email following on from our conversation.
And this is their response
I’ve spoken to one of my colleagues to clarify what’s happening on your complaint and it looks as though there’s an ongoing issue with your complaint and others like it.
We have previously written to Wonga about cases where we feel a consumer bought their complaint within the time limits set by the regulator. But unfortunately Wonga have widely disagreed with us on this. We are in the process of working with Wonga to explain our approach – but this does take some time. They have also raised a number of arguments that we are still considering.
I appreciate that this is frustrating for you, but unfortunately, I can’t give you any further updates or provide you with a timescale for when this will be resolved at thi
Chasabeth says
Hi Sara,
I just wondered if there was any update with Wonga considering loans over 6 years? I’ve got quite a few that were over 6 years (2011 onwards) I have sent to the FO recently as I gave Wonga 8 weeks to respond to my complaint and I heard nothing.
I also sent them a complaint for QQ which they rejected, again many of the loans over 6 years.
Thanks
Stuart eddy says
Hi I currently have my final offers from payday express and payday uk both not going into any over 6 years and both not giving me statement of account without paying they are just refusing said I need it to consider complaint still will not give them! Does everybody have this? And do you think it would be worth trying to get the other loans over 6 years included by ombudsman?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
How good do you think the offer is? How have payday Express and Payday UK explained it – have they just offered a lump sum with no details, or have they said how many loans you had and how many they are refunding?
Are they saying they will give you a complete list of your loans if you pay something? How much? Do you still have a balance on one loan?
Can you work back through your bank statements and reconstruct what you borrowed and what you paid them? I know this can be a large job if you borrowed for years, but these could be large amounts of money so it’s worth making sure before you accept an offer.
Roughly what proportion of your loans are over 6 years old? Were they mostly smaller loans with all your large borrowing being later on? The Ombudsman IS looking at older loans and these two companies ARE paying out on them, so if there are a lot of them it will be worth going to the FO.
drew says
Hi
Can I just say thank you to start with, this website has been very helpful for me in getting refunds with several companies,
I have just received my response from Wonga saying they will not be upholding my complaint as its over 6 years and . . .
My question is, looking at my statement below, do you think I have case taking it to FOS
date borrowed borrowed interest fees date closed total paid
1/12/10 £470.00 £470.09 £31 03/11/2014 971.09
5/11/10 £299.00 £75.08 £5.50 30/11/2010 379.58
6/7/10 £400.00 £457.85 £13.00 19/10/2010 870.85
11/3/10 £400.00 £184.64 £20.50 06/07/2010 605.14
29/10/09 £190.00 £277.31 £19.52 09/03/2010 486.83
01/10/09 £120.00 £25.99 £5.50 22/10/2009 151.49
9/9/09 £180.00 £38.42 £5.50 30/09/2009 223.92
Sara (Debt Camel) says
yes, I think that looks like a reasonable case, the gaps between the loans were small and you paid a significant amount of interest. So send the case to the FOS and settle back and hope this gets resolved…
Nick says
The FOS is now looking into my older than 6 year qq loans
Scott says
You have this confirmed ? That the over 6 years loans are being paid out on ?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The FOS looking into a case isn’t quite the same as QQ paying out on it…
Scott says
We know this but the fos have been looking into over 6 year loans for the last two years but the adjudicators have not been given the authority to proceed with them I assumed nick meant he had it confirmed from the fos that they are now going to go ahead with them
Chasabeth says
If that’s the case then that’s great news. Most of my QQ loans are over 6 years old. Not saying that they will be paid out on or not, but to have them looked into would be great. QQ rejected all of my loans, saying they were all affordable.
Jakki070 says
Has anyone had an update from FOS regarding Wonga with the Jurisdiction issue?
Chasabeth says
I spoke to them today. I wanted to see what the next step was as I’ve had an email from FOS to say my Wonga complaint, with most of my loans over 6 years, have been referred to a team within the FOS to see if they would consider looking at them, not something I’ve heard of before.
Wonga offered me a settlement on 4 of my loans which were under 6 years, which totalled £950. I’ve had over 30 so if Wonga do decide to look at them it could be a lot more.
Surely it can’t be dragged out much longer, a decision must be made soon either way.