If you had doorstep loans from lender such as Provident, you may be able to get a refund of the interest you paid if the lender should have realised the loan was unaffordable for you.
Doorstep lending – also called home credit – is where a collector comes to your house to collect the repayments. Doorstep loans are used by over 1.3 million people in Britain. The four largest lenders are Provident (includes Greenwoods), Morses Club (includes Shopacheck), Mutual and Loans At Home.
What is an “unaffordable” doorstep loan?
The regulator says that a loan is unaffordable if you couldn’t make the repayments without borrowing again. This could be from the same lender, from someone else, getting deeper into your overdraft or by not paying a bill such as a utility bill.
So even if you always paid your Provident loan on time, it could still have been unaffordable.
If the lender should have realised the loan was unaffordable they shouldn’t have given it to you – that was irresponsible lending and you should get a refund back of the interest you paid.
It is difficult to get a refund for only one loan. But if you borrowed several times and especially if you took out a new loan when you were having problems paying an existing one, then complain.
How to complain
For the last 18 months, lots of people have been getting large refunds from payday loans, see How to ask for a payday loan refund. The good news is the process is exactly the same for doorstep loans – the regulator’s definition of affordability is the same for all sorts of lending.
That article has template letters for complaining and it describes what you need to do and when to take your case to the Financial Ombudsman. And at the bottom there are thousands of comments from people making these claims, so you can see how it works in practice.
Here are some points that often crop up with doorstep lending. If any of the following happened to you, add a similar sentence to the standard letter in that link:
- “My collector said I needed to change some things on my application otherwise it wouldn’t be approved”;
- “My collector filled out the application and gave it to me to sign, I didn’t have time to read it”;
- “I told the collector I had lost my job and she offered me a new loan to tide me over”;
- “When I asked my collector if I could pay over a longer period, he said I couldn’t unless I took a new loan”;
- “I have borrowed from you continuously for four years. Every time I cleared some debt, I was offered top ups”;
- “I missed several payments but you kept lending me more”;
- “For the first loan my collector looked at my payslip but after that he never checked and never asked if I was getting the same money – I wasn’t.”
Those are all bad but pretty common. There are some horror stories of bad lending and collection in this recent Citizens Advice report: Debt on your doorstep.
Contact details for the main doorstep lenders
Include your customer reference number if you had one. Explain if you have moved address or changed your email so they can locate your account. Keep a copy of online complaints or letter sent – if you email it to yourself it’s easy to pass on to the Ombudsman if needed.
- Provident Use their online form: complaints to Provident and copy your complaints letter into the “message you want to send us” box. (Same for Greenwoods).
- Morses Club You have to write to them, see complaints to Morses. (Same for Shopacheck).
- Loans at home email with COMPLAINT in the title to customerservice@sd-taylor.co.uk.
- Mutual email to complaints@mutual.uk.com.
How good is your complaint?
The more loans you had, the better your case. Borrowing for prolonged periods by taking out new loans or refinancing existing ones shows you were dependent on the loans.
The larger the loans became, the better your complaint is. The first few loans may have been affordable but if they kept going up, that is a sign of increasing trouble.
If you think you have a good case, don’t be put off if the lender rejects it. People are winning these cases at the Financial Ombudsman. The payday loan refund link above describes how to send your complaint to the Ombudsman, what details to include etc.
Don’t be worried because your bank statements show a lot of gambling. Read Gambling and payday loans complaints for examples of how the Financial Ombudsman handles this sort of case -it is hardly ever a problem.
If you are offered a small amount, don’t worry you will lose this offer if you go to the Ombudsman. We have never seen this happen.
What will the Ombudsman say?
You can take cases with doorstep loans more than 6 years old to the Ombudsman. The lenders may say they haven’t kept the records of the credit checks for these older loans … but they don’t seem to be very good at producing the records for the more recent loans either!
You probably won’t get a refund back of all the interest you paid. But ask for it all and let the Ombudsman make the decision about where your loans became unaffordable. You don’t have to calculate and ask for an amount.
It’s worth emphasising if you had a poor credit record, especially if it got worse as you carried on borrowing from the doorstep lender.
It is also worth emphasising if you repaid some loans early because you borrowed more that month from the same doorstep lender. To the adjudicator this can look at first sight as though the lender was fine to carry on handing out loans as you weren’t in trouble as you had repaid loans early. It’s important to try to show the links between your loans. So:
I took loan 2 out as soon as I repaid loan 1 and it was for a larger amount. I then took out loan 3 whilst loan 2 was still going. After a few months I couldn’t afford the payments so my collector suggested I took out a loan to repay off the loans 2 and 3 and spread the repayments over longer. So loans 2 and 3 were repaid early only because I borrowed more. etc etc.
Need some help?
Your local Citizens Advice can help with writing these complaints, that will be free.
You don’t need a lawyer or a claims company. They take a LOT of your refund and you can make a better claim on your own than they can. A good claim involves telling your own story, you know it and a claims company doesn’t!
If you are still repaying a doorstep loan, you can still complain. If the repayments are too high, talk to StepChange and they can see if a debt management plan would help. You can still complain if you are in debt management.
Comments or questions?
I suggest you add a comment on the payday loan refunds page as they are read by so many people.
Asking for a refund for payday interest
Is a credit card or catalogue limit too high?
Do you need a lot details for refunds?
Linda says
I have sent a request to Provident for details of all loans I had with them, I am repaying a debt with them at a reduced rate. At one point I had 8 loans on my book and was paying almost 200 pound a week but my agent still kept offering me loans. I will update on my progress.
Wendy says
How did u get on
Sarah Rees says
I’m gonna give this a go with Provident too. Me & my husband had many, then split & both got more again independently from the same agent. I moved with my daughter into a council house & became unemployed shortly after. Had already started making late payments, but was still given a bigger loan with the agent knowing my circumstances. We eventually worked things out but he had fallen behind with them also. We started making payments on 1 which quickly got paid off. Then 1 day the agent turned up at the door screaming at my husband in front of my daughter, warning him he wasn’t ripping her off & had better sort payment fast! We paid that 1 off in full shortly after too. However, throughout the duration of these loans, ocassionally, the agents husband ( who we believed to also be her boss) would knock the door with a demand for payment in full for other debts we were struggling with at the time. Completely unrelated debts. He used to say that his company bought in paid debts & made him collect them. He would always turn up the week after pay day too I’m assuming because he knew when our pay was due from the provident loans. Is this normal? I used to think it was weird then but even more so now
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The collections for other debts – I don’t think it’s normal, but I’m not sure how it will feature in a complaint against Provident. I think it would have to be in a complaint by your ex.
Nim says
Hi Sara (debt camel),
I have had a response from adjudicator re provident – not very pleasing.
Basically, they agreed to look at loans from July 2007. But only agreed to refund from Oct 2014 – how bizarre? – my credit history was very bad at the time, which I explained to them and responded to the outcome again pointing that out again and I was unemployed for around 18 months at the time. This was my biggest clams so was hopeful. I don’t think the adjudicator did a proper assessment compared to the other who dealt with my PDL, and feel let down by their response! I wish the same adjudicator could look at it, as he/she would now know my real financial circumstances.
do you think this is a case for the Ombudsman?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It looks complicated, but also that doesn’t look like a final decision from your adjudicator – worth going back and arguing at that level first!
Nim says
Hi Sara (debt camel),
Yes, this one seems like a difficult one to deal with!, but I also think if it’s a new adjudicator – may not be experienced enough and compared to the response received, not as detailed as the other complaints outcome from other adjudicator for PDL’s. I would have thought even after the 3rd loan Provident should have done more checks and I had 5 big loans in 2009? thereafter, this should have alerted them. However, the error on the dates was pointed out and it was for sure, Just as I checked, loans to be refunded from Oct 2011 and NOT Oct 2014 – only last 3 loans – the adjudicator apologise for the inaccuracy! – not very hopeful, neither with the outcome in the 1st place.
I have also noted that when you do give the adjudicator additional information – the standard reply is ‘ this doesn’t change my opinion’ – which I think is totally out of proportion as they do not want to disagree with their own findings and that they may have missed some subtle information!!
So, I am not sure whether the Ombudsman will have a greater impact on the decision the adjudicator has already made? or hopefully consider differently? is the Ombudsman more through? – just have to wait and see.
Best Nim
Morag says
Nim
That’s the same with mine, is it the same adjucticator,haha!!,I thought you would have got it as your credit file was bad,
Morag
Nim says
Hi Morag, well I am still going to fight it as I have responded with some more points – will be further sending an email to argue my points.
Although it’s still not the final answer as adj is waiting to hear back from provident to see what they agree. I just feel the adj did not do a good report of affordability like the PDL’s.
Best |Nim
Morag says
That’s great, although my adjucticator said that home credit is completely different from payday loans as the amount you pay weekly is small, but if your credit was poor than I do see why not.
He did make a point that smaller loans i.e., £200 to £500 they wouldn’t have to check your credit file🙁🙁🙁🙁
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The fact they don’t HAVE to check your credit record is the same with payday loans, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/payday-loan-credit-scores/. But the point is that if it appears through repeat borrowing that you are dependent on the loans then they should look more closely at your situation.
1 or 2 loan cases, or cases with large gaps are going to be hard to win.
Sarah Rees says
Hi. Sorry but could one of you possibly send me a copy of the letter you used to send to Provident to complain? I can’t find the templates & am really unsure of how to word it. My email is s4r4hR@mail.com. Would really appreciate it thanks.
Nim says
Hi Sarah, this is what I wrote – ( edit as required) –
I do not believe Provident Personal Credit carried out sufficient checks to show these loans were affordable to me. As such, I am requesting a refund for the interest and charges paid plus statutory interest of 8%.
I have taken out xxxx loans from Provident Personal Credit from period: xxx to xxx.
I have enclosed account statements of account for your reference.
I have fully paid on the account as of xxx – this had taken longer than expected and I contacted Provident over the years that I was having difficulty paying and that I was not able to afford paying standard weekly amount of around £xxx and that I would pay on a monthly basis whatever I could afford. The loan agreement took longer that expected, approx – xxxmonths, instead of around xx months to complete payment.
During the last 6 years – I borrowed from many other Payday Loan lenders to keep up with regular payments to ALL, and trying to escape the high interest trap, borrowing from friends and family and further resorting to bad credit loans. I had bad credit history with CCJ and Default on my credit file. This spiralled into to mounting debts becoming more and unaffordable and increased borrowing and has caused me considerable financial distress over the last 6 years due to their irresponsible lending and inadequate affordability assessments.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Hi Nim & Sarah,
another point that is worth making is if you repaid some loans early by borrowing more from the same lender. I’ve just added some example words for this sort of case to the article above.
Andrew says
Hi Sarah.
Just wanted to let people know about my morses club complaint. I have been borrowing with them constantly since 2014. My monthly payments were £458 and after finding this website I put in a complaint the beginning of November. Morses replied after 8 weeks saying the loans were affordable. I sent my complaint to the ombudsman who have rang me this morning. Morses club have offered to clear my outstanding balance of approx £4000 and refund £4292. So I’m pleased with the outcome and was quicker than expected.
Once again thank you Sarah for this wonderful website.
Louisa says
Can I ask how quickly you received the payout after acceptance?
Andrew says
Sorry for late reply
I received a cheque in the post a week after accepting then another 5 days for the cheque to clear
Sam says
I want to make a complaint to Provident for loans dating back from 2009 to current and since 2014, i ve had no less than 3 loans running a one time continual arrears, re financing Managers coming to my house etc. BUT im having a crisis of conscience, basicly i do not want to get the agent in trouble (or involved even though i could add certain things to streghen my complaint) as it turns out they are a friend of a family member and knows a lot of people I know in my community, i dont want any repercussions, also i suspect that due to the FCA investigation this summer, all Provident self employed agents now have to apply for their jobs (job role is changing). Basically i dont want my complaint to be the factor why they have not got a job. On the other hand IF my complaint was to be upheld even if i was only awarded some interest or current loans written off it would be a life changing thing for me! And i really would be debt free or at least in a good position to sort other financial matters out.
I guess i am looking for advice really. I could wait until i know if they will continue to be my agent in the next few months but want to get the process started as i think it will be the 8 weeks with provident, for them to deny complaint then off to the Ombudsman.
This is my first post so i hope that i have submitted correctly.
Regards,
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I have changed your name as it looked from your email address that you had used your full, real name.
Here are some thoughts:
– nice people can have jobs with distinctly dodgy ethical dimensions. The job of a home collector needs to be reformed and if it can’t be, it should be abolished. So far your collector has had financial incentives to keep offering more money, even when they know you are in trouble, and there have been no/few controls from Provi itself to either limit repeat lending or to do propoer affordability and credit record checks.
– I don’t know what aspects you could mention that would reflect badly on your collector. If it simply that they gave you loans when you were in difficulty, then they aren’t likely to lose their job for that as every collector in the country has done it. If they have suggested/helped you to falsify your application (“I know how to get this approved, you need to say…”, “I expect you’ll get another job soon, so we’ll just put you down as still employed on you previous wage”) or pressured you to pay them when you said you couldn’t to be honest they should be sacked.
– in many ways Provi and the other doorstep lenders are worse than payday lenders because of the personal / community aspect – people try harder to make their repayments even if it means borrowing elsewhere or not paying priority bills such as council tax and utilities. I am not surprised your collector is well known in the area – that’s the hallmark of a successful collector! But they are still leeches that have been charging you and others very high interest for many years and making a living from it.
If you are still borrowing from Provi, then I don’t think waiting is a good idea at all. This is you and your families fiancial future. But I understand your worries, not easy for you.
Patricia musgrave says
Could you e mail me the provident complaints form .i am over 70 and just borrowed more money .only wanted 300 but was suggested i borrow more and pay the other off .been borrowing since my husband died 6 years .i cant sleep at night .thinking of the silly thing ive done again .must have paid thousands in interest .
Sara (Debt Camel) says
oh dear, 6 years is a lot of borrowing. Was there a particular reason you needed the £300? Do you have other debts as well?
LESLEY GALLOWAY says
I’m thinking of doing this as i find my payments unaffordable and have not paid the full amount for ages and many of my loans with provident have been piggybacked i also have very bad credit. How do i begin do i ask them for a statement of my account and then write them a letter of complaint?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
HI Lesley,
the template letter for payday loan complaints is in here: https://debtcamel.co.uk/payday-loan-refunds/. The aryicle above suggests some changes / additions you may want to make to that template to cover points that often arise with doorstep lending.
These templates are only meant to help get you started – change them so they really tell your story!
Nim says
Hi Morag,
any news from your provident case and adjudicator?
Nim
Morag says
After I just emailed you, my adjucticator has just over a letter, that both complaints are going to an ombudsman!!!
Don’t want to pay out the interest!!!!
Nim says
Hi Morag,
ok, and how much interest are you looking at? and has the adjudicator decided to refund all interest?
I am still waiting for reply as adjudicator has sent off to provident, but I have also sent more information to support my case and history of bad credit etc. So adjudicator is waiting to see what provident has to say and then re submit my case or even go to the ombudsman.
Best
Nim
Debbi says
I sent in a complaint the the FO, re provident I had loans over several years with all rolled over except one, I went into a DMP in 2012 with a debt from provident and 10 payday loans.
I sent in an affordability complaint and this is the reply I got.
~~~~~~~~
your complaint about Provident Personal Credit Limited
Thanks for waiting whilst I’ve been looking over your complaint. I’ve now had a chance to review everything both sides have said. In this case, I won’t be asking Provident to refund anything – I know this isn’t the answer you were hoping for but I’ve explained below why I’ve made this decision.
I think this is a fair outcome in the circumstances, for the reasons I’ve explained. If you decide that you don’t accept my view, then an ombudsman here can look at everything again and make a final decision. Please let me know what you think by 7 April 2017. If I don’t hear back from you by this date then I may not be able to look at your complaint again.
my findings
I’ve considered all the information provided by both parties to decide whether this complaint is one this service can consider.
There are strict time rules governing how long consumers have to make a complaint, after which a business can object to us considering it. These are set out in the regulators – Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) – handbook and we have no choice but to comply with them.
The rules say we can’t look into a complaint if it was made more than:
– six years after the event occurred; or if later
– three years from when the consumer was aware, or ought reasonably to have been
aware, of cause for complaint
From looking at your loan agreements I can see you took our loans with Provident in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011. As all loans were taken out more than six years ago, except the 2011 one – under the first part of the rule the complaint has been made out of time
I’ve also considered the second part of the rule to see if it gives you more time. I’ve noted you’ve said you’ve only recently became aware you had cause for complaint.
Provident has provided me with information to show that they were contacted by Step Change Debt Charity in March 2012. It’s for this reason the complaint is out of time on the three year part of the rule as I think it was at this point you would’ve been aware there was cause for concern.
I have considered the loans you took out in 2011 and having done so I’ve relied on the loan agreements that are available. The loan agreements state that you were in full time employment earning £500 per week with a disposable amount of £350 and £360 respectively.
I haven’t found any evidence to show that Provident should’ve been concerned about the affordability of the loans as all your payments had been made on time and after completing income and expenditure there was enough money to repay the loan. I’ve also noted that you’ve said the paperwork was often completed beforehand and you merely signed – but I think here; if you concerns about signing the agreements there was no obligation to do so.
Overall, having considered everything I can’t fairly say Provident has done anything wrong. Yours sincerely
~~~~~~
I have replied and asked it to be escalated , that I was not aware in 2012 when I entered a DMP with stepchange that I could complain re affordability.
That none of the loans except the first were paid in full, that there were missed payments and each loan rolled over.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You could add that the fact you talked to StepChange, a well-respected advice agency, about your finances and they never told you you had a possible affordability complaint shows that this sort of complaint was not common knowledge in 2012!
lei williams says
Hi there , I’m looking for some advice I’ve only just been made aware that I could possibly reclaim interest paid on provident loan’s, I had 2-3 loans from provident every year since I was 18 I’m now 28 a single parent on benefits….I often struggle to repay hence being offered and accepting a larger loan to clear the outstanding & then I’m left with more debt, and then end up with more loans from provident, could anybody please give me a template to use as I haven’t a clue where to start with this thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
A template to start with is in this post https://debtcamel.co.uk/payday-loan-refunds/. That is for payday loans but it’s easy to change for Provident loans:
– You need to delete the word payday from it!
– And then add any specific points about your borrowing Provident loans. The article above lists the sort of things that often happened with doorstep lending so think if any of them applied to you and if they did, add a sentence about it.
Yours sounds like a very good case! If you were struggling with a repayment you should have been offered the chance to repay the debt more slowly over a longer period or signposted to a debt advice agency. You should NOT have been offered a larger loan to repay your current one and borrow some more.
anna320 says
I have recently complained to Provident regarding irresponsible lending. They came back pretty quick to say that they would not uphold the claim. I have now referred it to the FOS so fingers crossed they will respond quickly and in my favour!
Has anyone had any joy with a successful claim from Provident?
Nim says
Hi Anna, only partially – case is gone to ombudsman. adjudicator agreed to refund 4/15 loans – did not agree with him and provident did not agree to refund this.
So waiting to hear from ombudsman – and loans from 2007 – 2011.
Best Nim
Sara (Debt Camel) says
There have been several reported here. And some more have been published by the Ombudsman, picking a few at random:
http://www.ombudsman-decisions.org.uk/viewPDF.aspx?FileID=122458
http://www.ombudsman-decisions.org.uk/viewPDF.aspx?FileID=130266
http://www.ombudsman-decisions.org.uk/viewPDF.aspx?FileID=127545
anna320 says
These make for interesting reading Sarah! It gives me hope mine will be upheld but who knows?!
Anna
Kay M says
Hi I just wanted some advice, I took a provident loan out in 2015 for £350 over 52 weeks, total to repay was £637.00, then I was contacted by provident adviser stating I could have another loan as I had paid so much of this one off. She came out to the house and provided loan of £700 over 63 weeks! – total to repay was £1323.00. Not once I was asked for proof of income after the first loan. Everything was going fine until March 2016, my fiance has left me, I was going through a really tough time and needed funds ASAP – the lady came to the house and said she’d have to give me several small loans in order for me to be able to get a loan…..very strange. anyway looking back she actually gave me 5 separate loans in March 2016, 4th March she set me up with £500 over 84 weeks, 300 over 63 weeks, 500 over 63 weeks, 500 over 84 weeks and then on the 10th March another 400 over 63 weeks, in this month I think I was only given around £500 worth of funds in cash our of the new £2200 worth of loans provided….again no ID or proof was requested. Sometimes outgoing figures were changed by the agent to make my applications look more appealing but how do you prove this…..I then had to go on getting payday loans from Sunny and Pounds to pocket to help with general needs and household bills….I now have over £2715 still owed to provident and over £1500’s worth of payday loans…
My income had decreased in the second loan and outgoings went up after my fiancé left me…but no proof of income or benefits was requested on the second loan. They just used the same income as the first as I was full time employed.
Does anyone think I should contact provident and put in a complaint or…….???
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Then that sounds like a reasonable complaint for the second loan and a very good one for the recent one!
Kay M says
THIS IS A HUGE REPLY FROM PROVIDENT …What should I do now???
——————————————————
[edited]
After reviewing the repayments made towards each of your agreements I have confirmed the available information would have indicated the loan repayments were affordable. Prior to your most recent loan issue, our records confirm over 101 weeks you have made regular repayments at your weekly rate, with only one reduced payment and nine missed payments.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Hi Kay,
at a mere 900 words, that still has a long way to go to complete with the record of over 2,000 words sent by one payday lender :)
I have deleted all the general stuff that applies to everyone. As you can see, there isn’t much left about your specific case…
It sounds as though you had a couple (or more?) loans before your last one which is still running? Could you give a short account of these – how many loans, were some loans to repay previous ones and borrow a bit more? did your collector know you were struggling ? was a new loan suggested because of this? Check the bullet points in the article above – do any of them apply to you?
These are very individual cases, if you were trying to explain to a friend just why you feel you shouldn’t have been given the loans, what points would you make?
Kay M says
Hi Sara
I would list the following points.
1.Your agent did not request a list of other borrowing needs
2. No updated ID or income was required
3. All loans were taken to refinance other loans
4. Using payday loans as a regular income – told not to include this.
5. Tops ups constantly offered
6. Your agent knew I had recently split from fiancé therefore income had decreased. No proof of income requested.
7. Each loan was over a longer and long net period
8. Collector aware of reduced financial status
9. You applied me with 3 loans on one day
10. Provided 4 loans in 1 week how is this responsible lending?
11. These loans are the cause of my financial debt spiral
12. Very quickly became unaffordable and had to set up alternative payment which now is unaffordable due to more pay day loans I had to take out.
????
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Sounds a very good case to go to the Financial Ombudsman! See the section in this article which describes how to send your case, what details to include and how the FO works in general: https://debtcamel.co.uk/payday-loan-refunds/.
Kay M says
Just wanted to update you on how my claim was coming on, logged complaint in May to FOC my adjudicator emailed to introduce himself on Friday 07/07/2017. He request some additional details like credit report which I have sent. He has informed me that provident have came back to him with their response and he’s hoping to come back to me with an answer in the next couple of weeks. Fingers crossed for some good new finally !!!!! I’ll keep you all posted on the out come.
Gareth parry says
Hello everyone, so I’ve had a complaint with Fo since September last year and I feel it is dragging on as originally my adj said that they would not look at loans from over 6 years old,after reading on here that wasn’t the case I wrote back after receiving adjudicator response saying that they won’t uphold my complaint this is the reply
your complaint about Provident Personal Credit Limited
Thank you for waiting while I’ve been looking into your complaint.
I’ve now looked at all the information that you and the business have given me. Based on what I’ve seen, I think the business has dealt with your complaint fairly – so I’m not asking them to do anything.
I know this isn’t the answer you were hoping for. But I’ve explained below why I think this is the right outcome – taking into account everything that’s happened.
your complaint
You believe Provident were irresponsible in giving you a number of loans between 2006 and 2010.
my findings
loans taken in 2006
You’ll recall from my email to you of 6 October 2016 that I explained why I’m not able to look at your complaint about the two loans taken in 2006. To recap, these loans were taken out before we got jurisdiction in April 2007 to consider these types of loans.
loans taken in 2007,2008 and 2009
I asked Provident if they’d give consent to us considering the loans taken out in these years. But they don’t agree because these loans were taken out more than six years before you raised your complaint. We can’t look at a complaint if the event – in this case the sale of the loan[s] – happened more than six years ago. If the event did happen more than six years ago, we also have to consider if you raised the complaint more than three years after you became aware you had a cause for complaint.
We’re currently considering if Provident is right in saying this and I’ll be in touch as soon as I can about these. However from your two emails to me on 6 October 2016, it appears that you don’t want to continue your complaint about the four loans taken out between 2007 and 2009. But please can you confirm if I’ve understood this correctly.
loan taken in 2010
I’ve examined your bank statements and credit file along with information from the business.
Your bank statements indicate that you were getting paid weekly and your approximate monthly take home pay was about £1100. You had credit cards with Vanquis Bank and Capital One and you were paying combined sums of about £22 per month for these cards. And the only other credit agreements you had at the time seems to have been the previous loans with Provident. So from what I see, your bank statements and credit file doesn’t suggest that there was any information on them that would have been a trigger for Provident not to give you the loan.
I’ve considered too that you already had a relationship with Provident, so they’d have known how you’d conducted your agreements with them. And from what I can see, you did miss some payments on the existing loans, but in the main, you made regular payments to your agreements with them. And the loan given to you in 2010 was used to repay some existing borrowing so it doesn’t appear that your financial commitments increased as a result of that loan.
my conclusions
Overall, when I look at your bank statements, credit file and how you conducted existing accounts with Provident, there’s nothing to suggest that Provident shouldn’t have given you further money in September 2010.
So at this stage, I can’t see that the business was wrong for giving you further finance in September 2010. And because of that, I’m not asking the business to do anything.
After reading the new section regarding doorstep loans today I think my adjudicator might have been wrong in her assessment. Prior to the loan in 2010 I had missed 15 payments and was 3 month’s behind on the open loans from 2008/2009 which I used the loan from 2010 to pay off.
Really not confident on winning the complaint as it seems to me that I’m way overdue for an Ombudsman to pick up the case.
Any advice sara?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
First older loans. If the 2010 loan you took out was refinancing the 2007 and 2008 loans (it sounds as though it was but you need to be clear on this) then you have a very good case for asking the Ombudsman to look at the older loans. Explain to your adjudicator that you feel because the later loan refinanced then they should all be considered as a single case and it is the end point of the last loan that matters for the 6 year rule. There is a legal case that can be used to support this argument (Patel v Patel [2009]). This is in addition to the standard “I had no idea I could complain” argument that the Ombudsman is usually accepting for payday loans.
“Prior to the loan in 2010 I had missed 15 payments and was 3 month’s behind on the open loans from 2008/2009 which I used the loan from 2010 to pay off.” I think you should list these out, literally month by month every payment you missed, and send this to the adjudicator saying you think that is a track record showing you were in serious difficulty and could this be passed to the Ombudsman.
Gareth says
The adjudicator has all my payment history from prov as they provided it to her so she could see where and when I had missed payments my complaint is about irresponsible lending and I have explained that while loans from 2008/2009 may have been ok the last loan wasn’t as to fact I was 3 month’s behind with payments and I had missed 15 payments before taking out the last loan so the older loans were important to my complaint even if they couldn’t make a ruling on,at that point she told me that due to my change of mind that she had taken my complaint back from an Ombudsman and put it back in the holding pool!, fast forward and my complaint is now with someone else who I spoke to in December and aint heard from since lol
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Well, it’s up to you if you don’t want the older loans considered.
Where you think an adjudicator had the facts but missed the point it is always worth spelling this out in great detail. Don’t just assume the ombudsman isn’t going to make the same mistake. I really suggest you should reply saying: “You can see from my records that I missed payments to the 2007 and 2008 loans on the following occasions:
12/12/08
3/2/09
3/5/09 etc etc”
anna320 says
I’m confused as to who is an adjudicator? I wrote to Provident claiming interest due to irresponsible lending. They have refused and it is now being dealt with by the FOS. The man there has requested all the info from Provident. Will it be him that makes the decision as to whether I am correct in my complaint?
Kind regards
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The ombudsman has a two stage process. For the first stage a complaint is considered by an adjudicator. Most complaints are settled at this level, but if either the customer or the firm doesn’t accept the adjudicator’s decision, it goes to the second stage where it is considered by an Ombudsman.
So the man is your adjudicator and he will make the first decision.
Tom says
Hi has anyone had a successful reclaim with Naylors Doorstep Loans? I currently have a case with an adjudicator.
Chris says
So i emailed Loans at Home, the rung me and said that I had no case as this only applies to pay day lenders, i tried telling her otherwise but she just kept quoting legislation
So i have emailed them again, stating that i am claiming interest on all loans that i have had with them, i have also advised them that any future corrospondance should be in writting only and that i am not willing to discuss it over the telephone
I believe they were just trying to fob me off, i wont go away that easily
fingers crossed
Tom says
Hi Chris yes just sounds like they are fobbing you off to me. I have heard success stories about some doorstep loan reclaims. I currently have one with an adjudicator against Naylors Finance after they sent me a standard letter denying any wrong doing. I waited until their 8 week deadline was up then submitted my complaint to the financial ombudsman and has now recently been picked up by an adjudicator who is looking into it now. I paid around £450 in interest altogether on 4 loans I had with them in the space of 1 year just under 6 years ago so I am looking to claim that back plus 8% statutory interest. I had many other debts at the time including payday loans and credit cards so if they had done proper checks they should never have lent to me. Just need to be patient as it could take a while but be worth it in the end if you get a positive outcome.
Good luck! :)
Chris says
Yeah absolutely worth the wait!
I have no idea what the interest would be, but i remeber the loans normally being double what i borrowed, so on that basis, its over £4000 in interest!
Ill just have to be patient and go to the FO if they dont accept it
Good luck to you too
Gareth says
Check this out everyone
Mrs N complained to our service. Provident agreed that we could consider all of the loans,
including the ones which were more than six years old.
From the Ombudsman decision database itself.
I believe a precedent has now been set by provident.
Correct me if I’m wrong
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It’s not strictly a precedent – the Ombudsman doesn’t work like that. But Provi have agreed to some loans over 6 years being considered in some other cases as well.
Gareth says
Well then Provident should treat everyone the same and not pick and choose as they are treating people differently and not being fair to everyone by equal and as they have allowed more than a few complaints they now from my eyes to be unable to deny anyone who has a complaint with loans over the 6 year rule.
Morag says
Hi Anna,
Mine was taken to an ombudsman and still waiting for a final decision, did call them and they said hopefully an answer in a couple of weeks. What stage r u at ????
This has been with the FOS for 1 year! The only good thing will be that I am getting an extra years interest😄
Not heard from Nim yet!
Nim says
HI Morag
was just on the quiet side as nothing had come through till last Friday when my case was with the Ombudsman and adjudicator wrote that the ombudsman required more information and to be satisfied that my loans were unaffordable – so wanted more details of my financial history etc and as I was on JSA for 15 months or so. I have sent further information weekend, so fingers crossed, I get more from the Ombudsman, as the adjudicator did not look at all the loans even though both parties agreed to look at loans from 2007 onwards. This is my biggest claim! so really hoping for the best .
Best Nim
Anna says
Hi Morag!
I contacted Provident who didn’t want to know so it is now with the FOS. The investigator has been dealing with my case since 11th April and I received an email from him last Wednesday so 10 May say that he was working on my case and was hopeful to have an outcome by Monday 15th May depending on whether he needed further clarity from Provident. Do you know why your case taking so long?
Anna
Morag says
Hi
I think it was because I had loans with them pre 2010!!!
And after all of that I was only awarded the loans from 2014!
But anything is better than nothing. And as you know the interest is very high. I took a loan for £2500 and paid the same amount in interest.
Hopefully everything will go well with your case
Anna says
Thanks I also have had Loans prior to 2010 it will be interesting to see how far back they look and yes the interest is ridiculous!! I will keep you posted!
Nim says
Hi Anna,
how many loans did you have and over what period? and how much interest have you paid?
yes, if provident disagrees, like they did to my adjudicator’s decision, even though it was for only 3/14 loans, it’s now with the ombudsman, as I disagreed too. Hoping to get more loans refunded and mine loans were from 2007 -2011.
best Nim
Morag says
Nim
How long has ur complaint been with the ombudsman
Morag
Nim says
Hi Morag,
only just passed on last week, as they asked for more information.
So , I hope by the end of next week should have a final decision from the ombudsman, and hope it’s a good one!!
best Nim
Morag says
Hopefully! Mine has been 1 month now with the ombudsman but, not so far, asked for any additional info!
Anna says
Hi Nim
I am not sure exactly how many loans but they date back to at least 2007 though Provident would only provide me with the information for loans from 2011! I have paid at least around 7,000 in interest and my current loans i am paying a reduced amount.
Anna
Nim says
Hi Anna, ok.
You can ask the adjudicator of the loan details which they should have received from Provident, as I did, and it’s helpful to see what interest you have paid and all loan information. Request it.
This will be a break through if the Ombudsman finds in my favour all loans except from 2007 – as ruling does not allow them to consider any loan before April 2007. I have 14 loans minus one from 2006 can be looked at as agreed by provident in my case and the adjudicator.
Fingers crossed! and wish you all the best.
Nim
Anna says
Thanks Nim
I will definitely request that information. Hopefully I will hear something tomorrow,
Morag says
Nim
Any luck yet with ur complaint
Anna says
Hi Morag and Nim
I have had the assessment back from the adjudicator today stating Provident should refund me interest and charges on loans taken out after March 2011, he said Loans prior to this wouldn’t be considered but suggested they refund interest on loans taken out before March 2011 but only interest paid from March 2011 if that makes sense plus 8%. He is hopeful they will agree but I am not so sure as it’s quite a lot of interest they will need to pay out, As I still have 2 loans running he said that I will need to pay the capital back out of any refund to clear the loans minus the interest, Provident have til 8th June to respond but he thinks they may ask for an extension! I will keep you posted. Does anyone know if the ombudsman ever override the adjudicators decision or do they usually agree?
Kind regards
Anna
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The most common outcome is that they agree. Sometimes the Ombudsman changes the start date refunds are paid from, either making it earlier (so the refund is bigger) or later (so the refund is less).
Cassandra Anderson says
Hi I contacted Provi a few weeks ago with the template email. So far I have had no reply from them. How long should I leave it please? Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Provi don’t usually ignore complaints. You could call and ask if they have it?
Cassandra Anderson says
Ok thank u x
Cassandra Anderson says
Hi I received a letter in the post today with copies of my statements for 2010-2014. I have 5 loans in that time and on each loan I missed between 21 and 51 payments with one loan taking nearly 3 years to pay off! I have emailed back asking for details of loans dating back to 2000 and asking for the interest back plus 8%! I will keep u posted!
Anna says
Hi Sara
Thanks for your response fingers crossed Provident will agree with the adjudicator, if they do do you know how long they take to pay out?
Anna
Morag says
Anna, did provident agree with the adjucticator??. Both mine and Nim are still waiting from ombudsman☹️☹️☹️
Anna says
Provident have til tomorrow to respond to the assessment given by the adjudicator. He had basically said even if it goes to an ombudsman he can’t see the decision changing. I will keep you posted!
Anna
Morag says
That’s great, hopefully!! It’s a long waiting game , but the longer we wait the more interest.
Anna says
Hi Morag
Well The FOS came back to say Provident are querying some dates. The FOS have basically asked for Provident to pay my interest on 4 loans taken out prior to March 2011 + 8% but only pay me the interest from March 2011 these are the ones they are querying. The other loans they are requesting they refund all interest + 8%, The FOS said to allow another week then will hopefully have a decision, I think an ombudsman needs to check to make sure the Adjudicator has dated it correctly? Anyway waiting game again! The FOS did tell me that if Provident go to ombudsman it could take up to 4 weeks for them to look at the case.
Anna
Morag says
Any more news Anna or Nim
Nim says
HI Both,
sorry, nothing as yet – still waiting to hear from Ombudsman! seems to have taken for ever since Nov 2016!
Hope it’s a good decision too!!
Best Nim
Anna says
Hi!
Oh blimey Nim that’s a long time my adjudicator said with the current timescale if it goes to ombudsman they are looking at 3-4 weeks.
I am hoping to hear by Thursday! Will keep you posted.
Anna
Morag says
Provident and Greenwoods…
Finally received a decision with the ombudsman and she has agreed with the adjucticator. It’s been exactly 1 year ! Still to received a breakdown what I am due.
Also I am now think of tackling my credit union with regards to the affordability of a few loans I received from them.Anyone else had any dealings with them.
I did received money due from shop direct, capital one and my overdraft from my bank. All postitive😄😄
Anna says
Morag that is great news! Frustrating to think this could have been resolved a year ago though! Provident came back to the FOS querying dates of the first 4 Loans I had as they were taken out prior to March 2011 the FOS suggested they refund interest paid as of March 2011 however as the interest was preloaded they were querying the decision. The Adjudicator rewrote his assessment taking out the first 4 Loans and Provident now have until Friday to respond.
Anna
Morag says
Hopefully good news for you too. I suppose that’s an extra years interest to get!
Have you had any dealings with credit unions ? With the affordability of loans??
Anna says
Thanks Morag I’m keeping everything crossed! No I haven’t had any dealings with credit unions but good luck!
Morag says
Hi
That’s been a week now, still waiting, I called today but nothing as yet!!! Also had a letter from shop direct. About a month ago they accepted my complaint and I received £1000 off my balance, leaving £2000 to pay. I asked for a breakdown , which they could not give me, I complained and today they have said they r wiping off my full balance😄😄, therefore nothing to pay. How strange???
Tackling my last one , the credit union.
U had any other results??
Anna says
Hi Morag
Well that’s a result I wouldn’t complain 😂, now the FOS have upheld your claim with Provident do you deal with Provident direct or does it all still go through the FOS, The FOS are chasing Provident as they haven’t heard back from them so hopefully should hear soon. Don’t know why they just can’t pay out and get it sorted?!!! 😂
Anna
Anna
Morag says
Hi
The case is now closed and they have 4 weeks to payout! If not you go back to the adjucticator. They pay you by cheque!!!😀😀😀
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I don’t think I have seen a complaint against a credit union mentioned here. Their interest rates are so much lower and they often go into a lot more detail on income & expenses than other lenders.
Nim says
Hi Morag,
well that’s good! So how many loans did they agree? and did the ombudsman agree to more that the adjudicator? and over what period?
How much do you think you are due?
I am still waiting – looks like I should hear next?
Best Nim
Morag says
Hi
All my loans were from 2014. Ombudsman agreed with adjucticator, still waiting to c how much I am due. I had loans from 2008 but said they were affordable!!!
Have U had any dealings with credit unions???
Nim says
Hi Morag,
Ok. Well at least you get something. If you ask them to send a summary of your statements from provident, you should be able to see how much you will get.
And sorry, no dealing with credit unions.
Best Nim
Anna says
Hi Morag
Have you heard from Provident how much you will get yet or are they still working it out?!! Provident had til 23rd to get back to FOS and they have had to chase them today as no news….not sure if that’s a good thing or not!!
Anna
Morag says
Hi
Just waiting for them to work out what’s due. Any word
Neil says
I have finally received some details regarding my loans with Provident the information they have given me only mentions a quarter of the loans I had with them, I have submitted a complaint to them with the information I have asking them to look at the loans I had in the last six years. I am still paying the balance off at an agreed weekly amount 3 years after I took out my last loan. In one 18 month period I was given 11 loans that I have a record of totaling £5900 with a weekly payment of £90.00 per week. I will update when I get a reply.
Wendy says
Please let me know how you get on I’m just in the process of asking for my information of loans I’ve had them since 2000 I pay 90 pound a week
Neil says
Will do. Check your information when you get it,when I checked against the paperwork I had they had missed half the loans off.
Wendy says
Yeah I will do thanks. My agents leaves next week I can’t wait as I have been putting off getting in touch complaining as she’s a friend but I can’t afford to keep paying 90 a week and they have never checked my details in the whole time of me having them
Wendy says
Just received my information they have sent me the last 6 years worth as they say that’s all they hold so I’m going to send a email later about irresponsible lending they can see some weeks I wasn’t paying and as soon as my loans were half way I’d renew them as I needed more money I will keep u informed
Anna says
Hi the FOS wouldn’t consider Loans older than 6 years for mine
Wendy says
I thought that but even with these it’s worth putting in a complaint
Nim says
Hi Anna,
is this for Provident?
if that’s the case, my adjudicator did consider as well as provident who agreed. Still waiting for final outcome from Ombudsman.
Best Nim
Anna says
Hi Nim
Yes it is Provident. The FOS adjudicator suggested they refund me all charges from March 2011 and any loans that were taken out prior to March 2011 they requested they refund me as of March 2011. Provident came back to FOS querying loans taken out before 2011 and the FOS went in favour of Provident stating that interest was preloaded so wouldn’t refund as loans taken out prior to 2011. Now waiting to hear providents decision on rest of Loans!!
Anna
Anna says
Hi Nim and Morag
Provident have agreed to uphold my claim and I am due a refund of interest approx 5800, could take up to 4 weeks to receive cheque. Have either of you received payment yet??
Anna
Morag says
Anna,
That’s great, I’m going on my third week. Don’t know what I’m due! Was that result with the adjucticator or ombudsman.
Cheers
Morag
Lisa says
Hi,
Would this letter be sufficient for a provident complaint?
To Whom It May Concern,
I wish to place an affordability complaint against your company for irresponsible lending.
I have had at least 11 loans from you between May 2007 and Aug 2011. There may have been loans before or after these dates but without Statements of Accounts for my history with yourselves I can only account for these.
I had been borrowing quite often usually taking another loan to repay the one before, I believe my initial 2 loans to have been affordable but subsequent loans were not, and the amounts tended to go up. Your loans trapped me into a debt spiral, with the repayment taking so much of my wages that I had to borrow again to cover my next month’s living costs initially I was borrowing from friends and family but eventually had to resort to other financial parties such as payday lenders.
For this initial period, my income averaged about £800 a month.
I was a single parent of a 4-year-old when taking out the first loan and had child benefit and credits which averaged about £200 a month.
My living expenses were roughly: rent/mortgage £300. Council tax £60. Utilities and bills £250. Transport costs £40. Clothes £30. Food, toiletries £200. Child expenses £10 Other debt repayments £200. Total £1090 per month. This shows that there was no way I could afford these loans. I was advised not to include my other debt repayments for my catalogues and credit cards so I would have a disposable income.
After my initial loan, I wasn’t asked to complete further income/expenditure sheets and until I eventually resorted to a DMP with Stepchange I had the same agent. When I repaid the loans, it was usually early and with monies obtained from a further loan.
You should have realised from the number of times I rolled loans and borrowed again that my debt problems were getting worse and it was not responsible to continue to lend to me. The loan I took out in Feb 2011 was alongside a previous loan totalling over £3000 it was around this time I lost my job and ended up back on benefits, but your agent didn’t care as long as I met the repayments so her commission wasn’t affected, which I did for as long as I could causing other debts to keep mounting.
My credit reports would have shown my other debt repayments and problems including late payments and defaults the largest of which was a bank loan for over £10,000.
You should never have given me these unaffordable loans. I would like to ask you to refund the interest and extra charges I paid. The Financial Ombudsman suggests that statutory interest is added to this sort of refund.
I only found out I could make this sort of irresponsible lending complaint around a week ago. Even when I took out my Debt Management Plan with Stepchange I wasn’t made aware that I could undertake a complaint for affordability on any of my loans. I understand the Financial Ombudsman will consider all my loans, including those that are more than 6 years old.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
That looks fine. You might clarify “I was advised not to include my other debt repayments for my catalogues and credit cards so I would have a disposable income.” to say who advised you to do this – was it your agent?
Lisa says
Yeah it was the agent who advised that.
Thanks have sent it off. At the end f the day i have nothing to lose and lots to gain and hopefully even though they are older than 6 years i am still paying the last 2 of these loans through a DMP.
Will let you know if and when i hear anything.
grace says
I have received a call from Provident this morning saying they have investigated and 4 out of god knows how many loans should not have been given and enclosing a cheque for £3,600. Does this sound correct? as I know for a fact I had lots of loans spanning 2012 to 2016?? And should I not be offered a settlement form to sign to agree? Thank you for your advice
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Well it could be good, but who knows? I suggest you call them and say you can’t accept their offer until they have sent you a complete statement of account showing all your borrowing and what you have repaid.
Wendy says
When did u start your complaint. It depends how much your looking to get back I have worked out I’ve had over 16000 pounds of loans but if I was offered that amount I’d take it x
Grace says
I sent my complaint 8 weeks ago I’m happy with the outcome as it’s money I never thought I would get but I had loans from 2012 to 2016 the refund is for four loans and I had a lot more than that! I will ask for a breakdown x
Grace says
Thanks Wendy I’m happy with the outcome and the time it has taken as other complaints I have took ages x
Wendy says
Awe happy for you. I emailed Wednesday I haven’t even had a reply to say they received my complaint hope it doesn’t take too long x
grace says
I did chase it up a lot and sent an email to the Managing Director Peter Crook!!! I truly believe they should have given me any of the loans because of the financial situation I was in so to get something back is a bonus!! Good luck x
Nim says
Hi Grace, how odd??!! – But at least they offered you something! Most cases on here are fighting with the Ombudsman for final decision even though the adjudicator was in favour and upheld the complaints.
Just waiting for final decision as it’s gone to the Ombudsman around early May!! – just frustrating now!
Best
Nim
grace says
Hi Nim I found it quite odd as I didn’t have to sign a settlement form and although I received a 5 page letter!!! there were no breakdowns of any loans from 2012 to 2016 it just mentioned I had four loans in one month!!! and a cheque enclosed. Now I am wondering whether to get the FO to look at ALL the loans as well. I hope you get a positive answer soon xx
Anna says
Hi Morag
This was the result of the Adjudicator, thankfully it never went to Ombudsman. I received an email with a breakdown of calculations from the FOS and an acceptance form to print off and sign, but I am querying the figure as I think they haven’t refunded the interest in the current loans I have. Anyway happy with the outcome hopefully you will hear soon
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Any interest you paid on outstanding loans should be included in refund (which of course is used to first repay outstanding loan). Unless it has been decided that current loan is “affordable” which is very rare!
(I’m sure you know this, I’m just saying for anyone else who is reading and wondering.)
Anna says
Hi Sara
Thanks for that. I have just over £1800 from 2 current loans which they say has to be paid back out of the redress which is fine but one loan was for £1000 and the other £700 which makes me think the £1800 listed to be repaid includes the interest?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Do you have a statement of account showing what you paid to all loans? If you do, this is what you need to add up:
All interest and charges on loans which have been repaid. (Often it’s easier to get this figure by adding up all the amounts you borrowed and all the amounts you repaid, then the difference between these figures is interest and charges.)
Then take the two outstanding loans separately and work out how much you borrowed (ignore any interest added) and how much you have repaid. If you have repaid more than you borrowed, the loan is wiped and any extra goes into the refund. If you have repaid less than you borrowed, then the balance gets reduced to that amount.
So if you borrowed £1000 and have repaid £1100, the loan is wiped and £100 gets added to the refund pot. If you had only paid £400 back, the loan gets reduced to £600 to be paid from the refund on previous loans.
(This is a simple approach. There are other ways to calculate it but this one gets you very close – it isn’t strictly accurate because it doesn’t account for the 8% interest on the recent loans, but that will usually be small.)
Is that clear?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
“one loan was for £1000 and the other £700 which makes me think the £1800 listed to be repaid includes the interest?” That doesn’t sound right. Interest has to be removed. It is just about possible they are crediting you with the interest into the refund amount, but it sounds more likely that they are wrong.
Wendy says
I’ve just looked through my loans they sent me from 2009 to now I had 4 on the go and everytime say my loan was*800 everytime it got to 400 I renewed and it went up and this happened on every loan near enough so when I was renewing I was never getting the full amount as I had pay the other off. Really hoping I have a good case fingers crossed x
neil says
I have submitted a complaint to Provident and I am waiting for their reply, can I request that collections be suspended while my complaint is being considered I pay a fixed amount each week on a payment arrangement agreed with them ?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Can you afford the payment arrangement? If you can, it’s usually simpler to let it continue, but if you can’t ask for it to be reduced or suspended.
neil says
It is a struggle to pay it, I will ask for them to reduce it.
veronica moss says
I sent provident this 2 weeks ago.
I am emailing to request a statement of all loans taken out with you by myself. I am also requesting a refund of interest paid plus the statutory interest of 8%. As i believe you to have acted as an irresponsible lender.
I first became a customer when an agent turned up at the door offering vouchers, This soon spiralled out of control as i was able to take out loan after loan even at times having 3 loans in place at once. In around 2005 i got a secured loan and paid off all my loans with you. It wasnt long after when i started gettig phone calls and agent knocking on door saying manager is mithering for me to take out a loan. This lead to the same again. There was a time when i had to reduce my payments as was struggling and ended up with mortgage arrears but yet was still allowed to renew loans with you and refinancing to get by. It is hard to get out of a situation when loans are getting offered to you by texts and emails especially if having a bad week. Being a self employed taxi driver there were times when vehicle was off the road and had no income at all and when explaining i cant afford to pay to be told i have to pay something. This lead to me paying by cheque to give me a bit of extra time to get the money in the bank but by the next week i would have to find the money to cover the cheque and also the next payment. This is now causing me sleepless nights and distress and it is mainly down to irresponsible lending and inadequate affordability assessments on your side. My credit rating is also at a low and has been for a while.
Gareth says
Hello I’ve been waiting for my complaint to get to an ombudsman for ages so I rang up 2 weeks ago the lady on the phone told me no adjudicator was in charge of my case as it was now in the pool for an ombudsman rang up this week and asked was there anything that would speed up the process and I was considering dropping 2 older loans 2008 2009 from my complaint. The lady said she was disappointed and felt it was a shame because the ombudsman would consider them all I didn’t agree to do anything at that point as she said she would get in touch with the specialist team in charge and get them to contact me in regards to if there was anything to speed the process up.
Yesterday I received this from the adjudicator
your complaint about Provident Personal Credit Limited
I understand from your recent call to us a couple of days ago that you’d like the investigation of your complaint resolved. And because of the time it’ll take for us to resolve the issue over your older loans, you’re happy for us not to include them in the investigation. So I’ve reviewed your complaint regarding the loan you took out in September 2010.
Based on what I’ve seen, I think the business has dealt with your complaint fairly – so I’m not asking them to do anything.
I know this isn’t the answer you were hoping for. But I’ve explained below why I think this is the right outcome – taking into account everything that’s happened.
your complaint
You believe the business shouldn’t have given you the loan because you couldn’t afford it. You’d like the business to refund interest and charges added to the loan and to remove it from your credit file.
my findings
In September 2010, you consolidated two previous loans into a new loan. And at the same time you borrowed an additional amount. So your new loan was for £2,500 and when interest was added, you had to repay a total amount of £5,300. You agreed to repay this sum by 106 weekly instalments of £50 each – in total £200 per month.
what did the business have to do
A financial business can make commercial decisions about whom to lend to and how much. But before agreeing to lend, the business has to check that the borrower could afford to make the repayments. And the checks they do must be proportionate.
When considering a complaint, our Service looks at whether the business did the checks, which are proportionate to things like – but not limited to – the size of the loan, the repayments, what it knows about the consumer, and the things the consumer told it about their circumstances.
If the checks the business did were enough, we won’t usually say that they shouldn’t have agreed the loan.
If we don’t think the checks were enough, and we feel that more proportionate checks would have revealed you couldn’t have afforded the loan, we’ll ask the business to put things right.
what did the business do?
The business says that after the visit with you, the agent submitted your details to their internal database, they collated it against their application and accounting systems and a credit search was also done. Then the agent revisited you to make an assessment of your capacity to understand the information that came with the credit agreement and to take further personal details from you including proof of ID and documentation of your income and expenses and your suitability for the loan.
was this enough? why?
Unfortunately, the business hasn’t sent me evidence of these checks. So I can’t be certain of what information they had at the time of agreeing the loan. And in the absence of evidence to show me what checks the business did, I have to conclude at this stage that the checks weren’t enough.
So I’ve looked at your credit file to see what information was on there that would have been a trigger for the business not to give you the loan. And I’ve not seen anything negative on it from around that time. You had a Capital One credit card and a Vanquis credit card. But I can’t see that any adverse information was recorded about them at that time.
I’ve also looked at your bank statements to see how your financial circumstances stood at the time. They show that you were getting paid weekly and from around the middle of September 2010 you were getting roughly £292.78 per week – so on average that works out to be about £1268 per month. But you were also getting additional sums from your employer and many weeks you were getting much more than £292.78 a week. In fact over a four month period between July and October 2010, you took home £1600 a month on average. And I can’t ignore that.
I don’t know what expenses you gave the business at the time you applied for the loan, so I’ve taken into account the expenditure figures you gave me in your email of 4 January 2017. And I’ve also taken into account the amounts shown on your bank statements for payments to your credit commitments. I also see that you were giving Lauran Parry £30 each week, so I’ve included those payments too. That comes to about £1106 per month. So I’m minded to think this was the expenses figure you’d likely have given the business back in September 2010. When I deduct £1106 for expenses from your income of £1600, then that leaves disposable income of about £494, which was sufficient to cover your monthly payments on the loan.
my conclusions
So having reviewed your complaint about the loan taken in September 2010, I don’t feel that the business acted inappropriately in giving it to you or that it was unaffordable. So I’m not asking the business to do anything.
what happens next
If you don’t want to take your complaint further, you don’t need to reply.
But if you don’t agree with what I’ve said, please let me know why by Thursday 20 July 2017. I’ll look at any new information you give me and let you know what I think.
If we don’t hear from you by Thursday 20 July 2017, we might not be able to look at your complaint again. So if you want to reply but you think you’ll need longer, please tell me as soon as possible.
In every case, both the business and their customer can ask an ombudsman to make a final decision. But I think it’s unlikely the outcome would be different – unless there’s any important information that you haven’t already given us.
If you have any questions, please get in touch.
Regards
My complaint is about irresponsible lending why is she solely focused on affordibility she seems to contradict herself from earlier emails
Very frustrating now this process is that email totally deflated me and if I disagree again I’m back to square 1 waiting for an ombudsman again this compliant has been with them since sept/Oct 2016
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If you only had three loans, then you really do want them all looked at together. Just looking at the last loan on its own doesn’t give the full picture. The Ombudsman needs to feel that the business should have known from its own records and the credit checks it made on you that you were in trouble. It’s hard to win a one loan case!
“My complaint is about irresponsible lending why is she solely focused on affordibility” I am not sure what evidence you produced of “irresponsible lending” that didn’t relate to “affordability”?
If these loans were affordable for you, then you are not likely to win a complaint. Is there something missing from the figures the adjudicator gave? Some debts not taken into account? regular payment to gambling? What was the “spare” money going on? Was your overdraft increasing during this time?
Did Provi ask for detailed expenses from you? Or was this just done for the first loan and not later ones and your situation had changed? Or did your agent tell you what to put down on the form? I don’t know if you have made these sort of details points but they can help a lot with doorstep lending cases.
Gareth says
Unfortunately, the business hasn’t sent me evidence of these checks. So I can’t be certain of what information they had at the time of agreeing the loan. And in the absence of evidence to show me what checks the business did, I have to conclude at this stage that the checks weren’t enough. Also I didn’t complete an expenditure form just what I had coming in how can she say that the checks weren’t enough then agree that they done everything correct? Lol prior to last loan I had missed 15 payments and was 2/3 months behind on the 2 loans before the last loan and no derailed checks carried out.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I think you need to ask for all three loans to be considered together, not this one on its own. Missed payments and being in arrears should have suggested you had problems.
BUT you also need an answer to the issue of your actual expenses. Do you agree with what the adjudicator wrote? If not, what is being missed or misinterpreted?
Gareth says
They were all in one complaint the 3 loans already I merely
Rang up FO this week asking what my options for trying to get the process speeded up a little due to my current financial situation being quite bad right now.
the extra money i recieved wasn’t always a given as it was overtime and never guaranteed as an extra source of income and she based her findings over just a 3 month period I can’t provide extra information on this as in 2009/2010 I always paid for my living expenses in cash and I don’t know how I’m gonna prove otherwise
Sara (Debt Camel) says
From what you copied out, it looks as though the adjudicator only considered one loan that was under 6 years? There is no reference there to the problems you had had repaying the earlier loans, which the adjudicator should have considered.
If you only gave 3 months of bank statements it is going to be hard to win a complaint :(
Why is your current situation bad? Do you have a lot of current debt?
Gareth says
I gave her bank statements going back to 2007 cost 8 quid to send them off last year lol my current situation I have an amigo loan 2k outstanding dmp with my partner 4.5k outstanding and 4 payday loans all on agreements to pay reduced amounts just barely getting by but it’s been like this since Xmas and it’s wearing me down hence the reason for my call to see about speedING up the process I’ll link the 1st time she responded below
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Who is your DMP with? Are the payday loans included in that? Have you put in affordability complaints about the payday loans?
Gareth says
Dfh, no they aren’t dont want to keep adding to that or it will never go down
I complained to 2 of the 4 back last year and
Both refunded me or reduced balance just found it odd that they lent to me again considering I had previously complained to them all of my other payday loan companies I complained to last year won’t touch me since
Morag says
Provident no answering their calls from Friday???
Wendy says
There changing over and really busy it says on there page. Send a email might be better
Nim says
Hi Morag, so do you know how much you will be getting now?
any news? Am still waiting!
Best
Nim
Morag says
Still waiting, although I dont think the interest is as much as I thought as I paid these loans half way through then got another one☹️Still anything is better than nothing.
Fos gave until 20 th to settle. They told me it was to the 27th so I had to get the adjucticator to email them.(trying to get an extra week)
, when I called them today, they said they have paid the interest to the 5 th July, even although I haven’t got the payment yet!
Had to call FOS and it should be the settlement date of the 20th. I have to call back when I receive the cheque then they will need to change this!
It’s been over a year and they still don’t want to pay out!!
Sam says
Hi I’m needing advice I started borrowing money from mutual in 2006 but didn’t even work until Aug of 2008 had numerous loans between 2006 and 2013 the problem have is apart from a few still on my credit report I have no proof of these loans and all done in cash with payments written on a scrappy piece of card that i no longer have am I still able to put a complaint in and if so how do i do it?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You start by asking them to send you a list of your loans. See Step one in https://debtcamel.co.uk/payday-loan-refunds/.
You will need to be able to get bank statements if the complaint goes to the Finanical Ombudsman.
Mandy says
Hi all , could anyone please offer some advise I have been borrowing from provident for the last 6/7 years often refinancing after I had payed back three quarters of my loan also taking gold cards at Christmas time and having to payback between £200 and £260 per month I have always made my payments although I have sometimes had a couple of weeks arrears my loans are usually quite large £1000/£1500 .. but during this time I have never been employed nor do I receive benefits , my agent has quite simply always allowed me to state my husbands wage as my income (even though he has never been party to any of these arrangements ) I have a poor credit rating and numerous debts and defaults . Would this be a case for irresponsible lending from provident .
Many thanks mandy
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It sounds like a good case to me!
Mandy says
Hi Sara. Do I need to ask them for statements of account first as I’m not sure of the exact dates my current payment book shows from 2013 but I was borrowing a couple of years before that .
Any help with what I should write to then would be greatly appreciated
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest putting in a complaint now and saying you were borrowing from 1010/11. At the end of the complaint, ask them to send you a detailed list of your borrowing as well as a reply.
You can start with the payday loan complaint letter here https://debtcamel.co.uk/payday-loan-refunds/ and then just change it so it describes your Provi loans – how you usually refinanced them, how the agent never checked your expenditure, never checked your credit record, knew you had problems so suggested you refinanced etc. Ideas for may have happened that shouldn’t have in the article above, so see if any of those ring a bell with you.
Sonia says
Hi Sara,
Hope you can help me I’m in a mess with lots of loans today I got this after sending the template letter to Mr Lender
————————–
[I have edited out standard info and put all your comments into a single one]
…
you have taken out just one loan with Mr Lender.
Your loan (ML62584898) was taken out on the on the 24th April 2014 for £300.00; you opted to use our rollover service during your first month making an interest only payment, you did this a further two more times before calling us on the 2nd June 2014. During this conversation you explained that you did not realise your rollover payments were not reducing your balance.
….
We then set you up on a repayment plan to support you with settling your outstanding balance; this was made up of instalments advised affordable by you. However you failed to make your first payment due on the 31st July 2014, when trying to contact you via emails SMS messages and phone calls in regards to the missed payment we received very little correspondence. Eventually due to non payment and poor correspondence your account was passed on to a third party debt collection agency called Motormile Finance in November 2014.
….
However we can confirm that we have contacted MMF in regards to your outstanding loan, who have confirmed you have not made any payments to them and still have an outstanding balance of £525.00. We can confirm you have paid Mr Lender a total of £250.25 towards your loan.
As a gesture of goodwill we would like to offer to recall your account and reduce your outstanding balance down £49.27, which can paid via a repayment plan affordable to you. Upon acceptance of our offer it will mean you have not paid any interest on your loan.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Hi Sonia,
I am going to assume you agree that you only had 1 loan, rolled a couple of times and that you have paid them £252 and nothing to MMF. If any of those facts are wrong, that changes everything!
If they are correct, then you are being offered a “full refund” from Mr Lender. You haven’t yet repaid the full amount, but Mr Lender is reducing the outstanding balance so there is only £49 left to pay and calling back the loan from the debt collector.
I hope that seems fair to you as it’s very unlikely you would get any more by going to the Ombudsman.
Sonia says
Hi
Yes I think that’s fair but I don’t understand why they only want £49 from me! Not that I’m complaining!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You borrowed £300 and have repaid £251. If they remove the interest they have added, that means you still owe them the rest of what you borrowed – so £49.
Sonia says
Hi got this from 241 money shop –
You have borrowed a total of £2,250.00 from us. You have repaid a total of £2,134.94.
This means the principal amount lent to you is yet to be repaid (i.e. minus any fees or charges). If you ask a third party mediator to look into this, they are likely to ask you to at least repay what you have borrowed (the principal amount). In this case, they would ask you to repay at least £115.06.
We are happy as a gesture of goodwill to resolve by accepting £115.06 as final settlement of your balance.
We are aware that there are many forums and templated letters available on the internet to exploit any previous credit commitments under the wholly subjective banner of affordability. To compare our actions with the reported behaviour of other lenders is inappropriate.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If you agree with their figures (it’s always worth checking them – do you remember defaulting on the last loan?) then this is a good offer.
Sonia says
Yes but they should of carried out appropriate checks as it’s been a struggle paying the loans when I was working part time
Sara (Debt Camel) says
That is why the lender has agreed that you don’t have to pay any interest, just repay what you borrowed.
This is what the Ombudsman normally decides – that you borrowed the money and should repay it.
Sonia says
Hi Sara,
My son went to university and then left and now he is going back but they said he needs to clear his student loan I would prob say £3,000 they said he cannot go back until that’s cleared do you have much dealings with student loans?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
This sounds odd – I suggest he goes to his local Citizens Advice and asks them for help.
Wendy says
I emailed provident 3 weeks ago today I got a reply after a week saying there looking into it and not heard anything yet I know it’s only 3 weeks but they only replied as I messaged to see if they had got my complaint. How long have people waited before hearing from them. Thanks
Kay M says
Hi I waited around 6/7 weeks for them to contact me and say they would not uphold my complaint. I then sent to FO and have waited around 6 weeks to be assigned an adjudicator, now i’m just waiting for there response…its been 2 weeks since I sent all my statements and other evidence across. Hope this helps.
Wendy says
Thanks. Wow they really don’t like rushing do they. Hope you don’t have to wait too much longer.
Sonia says
Hi Sara, My mum took out finance on behalf of a close friend but now the friend has defaulted as she has lost her job the finance was with Barclays and there is still money owed! My mum is over 60 so she only has her pension is there any way out of this my mum and I are devastated.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
How much is still owing? What are the monthly repayments?
Sonia says
The finance was £3000 now it’s gone up to £5000 monthly payments of £150 she has only paid £800
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Is she renting? Does she have other debts as well? You said she was on a pension, does she get pension credit?
Sonia says
Yes pension credit is her only income Barclays are harassing her for payments because the finance is in her name she lives in a council property with no debts except this one
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Base on what you have said, she may have three options:
1) tell Barclays she can only afford £5 a month (or something she really can manage every month for a very long while) and start paying that
2) put in an “unaffordable lending” complaint to Barclays. £150 a month sounds like a lot too much for a pensioner to afford to me. Perhaps you could help her with this – use a version of the payday loan refund letter: https://debtcamel.co.uk/payday-loan-refunds/. The problem with this option is that the best she could hope for is to get the outstanding amount down to £3000 (what was borrowed) minus the £800 paid – and it doesn’t sound like she can afford to repay the £2,200.
3) go to her local Citizens Advice and ask them to set up a Debt Relief Order for her, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/debt-options/dro/ for more about these.
Going to Citizens Advice would have the big plus that they could look at her whole situation and see if there are any other options. I think that would be a good way forward for her.
Sonia says
Thank you Sara you have been wonderful I’ve written my letters using your template to all my lenders so hopefully I will get some kind of refund back and use that to help my mum out. I have another question I have a guarntor loan and I went off sick so instead of £279 for 60 months they froze the interest and said I should pay £150 until I return to work my guarntor and I are not so close now because of this but I can’t get out of this debt I’ve had 3 loans with them and have paid two off now stuck with this one I went to CAB and they couldn’t help as they said the lender would approach my guarntor so I couldn’t go to bankruptcy because of this loan £7000
Sonia says
Does anyone have the provident address or email address to send a complaint too?