Mr X has received a reply from QuickQuid saying why it will not consider an affordability refund on payday loans that are more than six years old.
This part of QuickQuid’s reply isn’t related to the details of Mr X’s case. It looks like a standard response QuickQuid is sending everyone whose complaints include these older loans.
I often see pretty poor replies from payday lenders to people making affordability complaints. But this issue is important for two reasons:
- it affects a large number of people; and
- QuickQuid’s reply seems to be so misleading.
What QuickQuid wrote – and my comments
Here is what QuickQuid wrote (in blue) and the reply I would make to them.
My replies are based on the two decisions by the Financial Ombudsman (FOS) this month on whether it can look at payday loan affordability complaints about loans that are more than six years old, see Ombudsman decisions on payday loans over 6 years old for more about these FOS decisions.
QQ: There has been widespread media coverage since the financial crisis in 2008 which has made it very clear that it is wrong for financial organisations to lend irresponsibly or to people who cannot afford it. Said media and press coverage includes 2013 parliamentary findings; hefty fines imposed on lenders such as Wonga; the FCA’s findings after completion of our own Section 166 review; the regulatory rule changes in 2014 which received press coverage; etc. X ought to have been reasonably aware that companies were not permitted to lend irresponsibly or in defiance of regulatory requirements.
My comment: In Mrs W’s complaint FOS considered very similar points in detail and rejected them. It concluded that:
“The fact that these publications were in the public domain and so, in theory, accessible to Mrs W doesn’t … necessarily mean that she ought reasonably to have been aware of them and read them. Nor does it automatically follow that consumers ought reasonably to have realised they have cause for complaint from that kind of generic information”
QQ: The loans were designed to be very short-term. The customer was required to pay via monthly installments, and therefore, if the lending was unaffordable at the point of sale, we would have expected X to recognise this very quickly. Even if a customer did not realise their complaint at the time of inception of the loan, they certainly should have realised it sometime before now.
My comment: FOS also rejected this point saying:
“I’m satisfied that Mrs W ought to have known from the frequency and amount of her borrowing, combined with her financial situation at the time … that these loans were unaffordable shortly after they were taken out (if not at the time of the borrowing itself). But I do not consider that having this knowledge (that the loans were unaffordable) means that Mrs W ought to have known that she had cause to complain at this time.”
QQ: We are mindful the ombudsman service may take the view that the customer should have been reasonably aware of this complaint during the term of the agreement, which is in line with the previous FOS judgements we have reviewed.
My comments:
QuickQuid is suggesting that FOS may take a view in X’s case that is the opposite of the views FOS took in the two recently published cases. QuickQuid doesn’t mention any specific reason why Mr X’s case would be different so I think it is misleading to suggest that FOS may take a different view in this case.
And the reference to “previous FOS judgements we have reviewed” – I think these were before August 2016, when 6 year loan cases were placed on hold whilst FOS looked into the jurisdiction arguments in detail. FOS answered a similar point in Mr H’s complaint where the ombudsman’s decision was: “I agree that consistency in approach is important. But I am not bound by that earlier decision”.
I think this was a misleading reply from QuickQuid
To summarise:
- QuickQuid has told a customer complaining that it will not consider refunds on loans over 6 years, citing various reasons;
- QuickQuid knows from the two recently published decisions that FOS says it can look at older loans in some cases;
- in these two cases FOS considered and rejected similar reasons to the ones QuickQuid has mentioned in its reply to X;
- FOS published these two cases in the technical section of its website which sets out FOS’s usual approach to common situations;
- the FCA’s DISP rules say that lenders have to learn from FOS decisions. This week the FCA has said specifically that payday lenders should take these two FOS decisions into account. See Dear Payday Lender CEO – should you start a redress program? for my thoughts on this FCA letter.
I think QuickQuid’s reply was so inaccurate as to be misleading. Some customers may give up on good complaints after reading a reply like this.
How should QuickQuid put this right?
First QuickQuid needs to stop using this misleading language on all existing and future complaints. It needs to incorporate the older loans in its decision-making process, not rule them out.
It should also review all previous complaints involving loans over six years which were not then taken to the FOS. For clear-cut cases, QuickQuid should now offer them redress.
For complaints where QuickQuid still does not feel redress is warranted, it should write to the customer to say that it would like to draw the customer’s attention to recent FOS decisions about loans over 6 years old and to say that, although it is not changing its decision, it will allow customers to take these cases to the Ombudsman even if QuickQuid’s original reply was more than 6 months ago.
What if you get a reply like this from QuickQuid?
If you get a reply from QuickQuid that sounds like the one Mr X got, I suggest that you should ignore it and send your case to the Financial Ombudsman.
This isn’t the only QuickQuid issue…
If you had loans after March 2015, QQ has been refusing to refund any of those either. Anyone would think they were trying to refund as little as possible! See QuickQuid’s refusal to refund loans after 2015 is wrong for a new Ombudsman decision on these recent loans.
UPDATE Summer 2019
QQ has eventually given in and accepted that in many cases it will have to pay refunds on loans over 6 years old. And on loans after 2015.
Comments have now been turned off for this old article.
GM says
so, if they reply with a rejection (highly likely) i just simply dont say anything back?
I currently have a complaint with QQ and all my loans with them are over 6 years old. As we stand, the 8 week deadline will end on the 2nd of november, so shall I not bother to wait and send straight to the FOS?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
There is no point in trying to talk to QQ – they don’t negotiate at all after sending an offer/rejection. You would just be wasting your time.
Of course if you want as well as sending your case to FOS you could send them an email saying how disappointed you are in their decision and how it appears to ignore the recent Ombudsman decisions about loans over 6 years old. And that you are sending your case to FOS, but will withdraw it if QQ come back with a reasonable offer. You could also copy your email to cmurray2@enova.com and ndrew@enova.com as well. But I doubt you will get a reply.
You have to wait for either a Final Response from QQ or the 8 week point, you can’t go to FOS before then even if you are sure you will get a rejection.
GM says
Great, will do. Thank you
Lauren says
Hi GM
I also have loans over 6 years old QQ replied pretty quick saying they would not consider them because of their age. I forwarded to the FO straight away. They are now dealing with it so i am hoping i will hear something eventually but i am aware it may be a while.
RY07 says
I put in a claim with them a couple of years ago, numerous loans with them, they agreed a settlement on the loans within 6 years but rejected all the ones outwith 6 (which was the vast majority).
I rejected that and it’s been sitting with the ombudsman ever since.
I did email quickquid on the back of these published cases to see if they will look at my case again, to date I’ve only received a bizarre email back which I assume was sent to me in error but I’ve chased again.
Unfortunately I can see them fighting this all the way as it could cost them a fortune, promising developments though.
Robin Savage says
I’m in a similar situation to GM. The 8 week period for QQ to respond to my case is up on the 18/11, most, but not all of my QQ loans are over 6 years old. I received an email from QQ this morning which reads:
‘I refer to previous communications and the purpose of this email is to assure you that the investigation of your complaint is still ongoing. I would like to thank you for your patience and confirm we will contact you as soon as possible, and at latest within eight weeks of the date we received your complaint.’
GC says
I got that reply too… I think they look at the loans and if they are over 6 year old, they process these responses just to make people wait and then, bang, the standard rejection letter.
Robin Savage says
Sounds about right
Claire says
I’m in the same situation too, Quick Quid rejected my complaint for loans older than 6 years ago and I went to the financial Ombudsman. My case has been sat with them for 18 months now. Quick Quid tried to only offer a refund for the more recent loans but I declined it and am hoping there will be an outcome soon.
RR says
I have just taken a case back to the Ombudsman stating the cases you have placed on your recent article re over 6 yr loans and cited the information above and received the following from them….(any advice?) Thanks.
Looking through your documents – I see that you have mentioned you had a complaint with Quick Quid before and it was looked at by Financial Ombudsman Service. You’ve also mentioned that the adjudicator removed the loans that were older than 6 months and now you wish for them to be looked at.
However, since the loans you are asking us to look at are more than 6 years old – unfortunately we have no authority to look at them as they are not within our membership.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
HAs your complaint been settled or is it still in progress?
RR says
I had a complained, and settled all the younger than six year loans and excluded all the older than six year ones from original complaint as were over six years and told by adjudicator that couldn’t be dealt with. The younger than six year ones were (eventually) all found in my favour and I was refunded all interest, charges and 8% for these. Thoughts?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Probably nothing you can do – you could have asked for the case to go to an Ombudsman to have the older loans considered.
Charlotte says
I had 4 loans with QQ in 2009. I wrote to them in 2017 but they obviously rejected my complaint as they were over 6 years old. I sent to the FOS but they said it would take some time as they were over 6 years etc. Well, it’s been nearly 2 years and they finally came back today saying they up held my compliant for the last 2 loans and have told QQ to repay interest, charges and 8% over the last ten years. They have until 8 April to provide any further evidence of to agree to their decision. Anyone else had this? Have the come back and rejected or agreed? If they agreed, how long did they take to pay out? The last 2 loads I had with them I rolled them over 3 times each so looking to get a decent enough payout if they agree.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Several people are reporting that they are just getting decisions about old over 6 year loan complaints. Let’s hope QQ is going to accept them!
If they do accept, QQ usually pays out very quickly, just a few days.
RR says
I had a complained, and settled all the younger than six year loans and excluded all the older than six year ones from original complaint as were over six years and told by adjudicator that couldn’t be dealt with. The younger than six year ones were (eventually) all found in my favour and I was refunded all interest, charges and 8% for these. Thoughts?
Teresa says
Coverage of short term lending on daytime TV and the internet has been relentless for so long that it swamps any cautionary tale occasionally flagged up by the broadsheets and will often be boldly advertised in other papers. Perhaps, like cigarettes and alcohol, a ban on advertising should be considered?
david d says
I can’t see how this will do any favours for QQ considering the vast majority of loans over 6 year old complaints will already be with the FOS on hold so the correspondence won’t make any difference. silly tactics if you ask me, but I think you are right that they are trying to put folk off submitting new complaints.
if anything, I actually think this will benefit those of us with complaints already on hold, as it continues to prove their incompetence in dealing with customer complaints and ultimately the continued unfair treatment of their customers.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I don’t agree that the vast majority of complaints involving over 6 year loans are already with FOS – there could be a lot more to come.
Carl Bareham says
An adjudicator from FOS called me on Monday to discuss one of my cases, I have 3 cases on hold due to the 6 year issue. They were unaware of any change in the historic cases even though I mentioned this very site and gave him the link to the article about the 2 cases.
If the FOS don’t know whats going on, claim to have no knowledge of the recent developments or of any Dear CEO letters how are the PDL companies meant to?
A month ago I asked for 2 complaints to go ahead without the historic loans as I did not want a repeat of the Wonga fiasco. My Wonga case is for £4.5K and I’ll probably only see a few pennies in the pound due to FOS taking so long to reign in these last few shylocks. I told the adjudicator that I want them included and this was when they claimed that nothing had changed!
CJ22 says
I’ve received a final response from QQ offering me nearly £2k but limited to my last few loans only. Unfortunately most of the others fall outside the 6 year period. I would expect a settlement in the region of £8-10k if the FO ruled in my favour for the majority of the 6+ year ones. I have a few questions though in deciding whether to accept the current offer or escalate to the FO,
1) Do you think I have a reasonable chance in receiving a refund of these via FO (i.e. are other 6+years complaints actually progressing now?)
2) Is there a risk QQ will go bust given all these claims, plus the 6+ years ones? In that case could I end up with nothing?
3) Can you give a rough estimate on how long you think such a claim would take?
Thanks for your help in advance,
CJ
Sara (Debt Camel) says
1. The decisions are only in the last couple of weeks, so it will b a while before it is clear what is happening.
2. there is some risk. I can’t guess how large. Unlike Wonga, QQ have a large US company as a parent.
3. Not really. FOS and the FCA want to speed things up.
CJ says
Thanks for your responses and help, Sara.
Do you think there is any merit on sitting on the final response and waiting to see if QQ and other lenders adapt to the newly published cases over 6 years? I know I have 6 months to escalate to FO from the final response.
Is it also a case of looking at new Ombudsman rulings to see if more of those 6+ years ones are settled in this way?
What I really want to avoid is escalating to FO now, waiting 1 year+ and then the payday lenders changing tack in a few months and settling those older loans directly, hence being a complete waste of time.
Your thougts appreciated,
CJ
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I can’t see any merit in just waiting. You may as well go to FOS, say you want all loans to be considered and get 6 months further forward in the queue. Even if QQ decides to look at older loans there is no guarantee they will pay out on yours, so you may as well be at FOS. And if QQ ar going to revisit decisions they have already taken, then that would include those currently at FOS. I can’t think of a situation in delaying going to FOS could produce a better result for you.
If you ke reading here you should hear of news when cases start go be settled.
Colin says
Got a QQ rejection on the 9th October (took 6 weeks), of my 30+ loans they say 22 were older than 6 years and hence they will not consider. The remainder they have said were affordable. So whole lot gone to FOS this morning.
Will update in 8-10 months when I get a likely outcome :)
CJ says
Thanks for the advice Sara, I think I will escalate to FOS then. I think I saw somewhere here about submitting separate FOS requests for those under 6 years vs those over 6 years or am I mistaken? Kindly let me know the best approach. Also I am struggling to get hold of bank statements over 6 years old. Do you think this could impede the FOS case? Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No, one complaint for all your borrowing. It is VERY rare that a lender will let you “split your case” into two.
It will be harder if you cant get the bank statements. Keep pushing for them now!
Andrew says
I’ve recently put in a complaint in with QQ over thirteen loans I took out in 2011/12. They replied on 17 October advising that eight loans where out of the six year period and three year rule. However they are offering me £2100 but are informing me that this will be withdrawn if I don’t accept it in 28 days. Are they likely to do this if I take it to the FOS or is there any chance the FOS would side with them and I would be left with nothing?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I assume the £2100 relates to loans that are under 6 years old – is it all 5 of them?
The older loans – do you know how much interest you paid on each of these 8 loans?
Were there any large gaps between the loans or were some rolled a lot?
Andrew says
Hi Sarah
The £2100 relates to four of the loans under the six years.
I would have assumed the interest was the same as it was the same loan continuously rolled over throughout the whole period.
As far as I’m aware there were no gaps at all.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So you borrowed £400 say once, then you repaid it and then reborrowed £400 on the same day for all the subsequent loans? they didn’t increase in size?
Andrew says
I’ve now actually checked the paperwork and the loans used to range from £550 to £700 per month (with the interest being aprox. £150 P/M).
The loans were normally taken out, on the same day, as repaying the previous one. Occasionally there was a slight delay of a few days but a loan was taken out monthly.
Sue says
I sent an email to QQ on 25 August 2018, requesting a full list of all loans I had with them. I am unable to access my QQ account. Since then, I have received a couple of holding replies (we are dealing with your case, etc.) and then today, 22 October 2018, I have received a response, which rejects most of my loans for being outside the 6 year limit. They did not provide a full list of my loans with them as I requested.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok then I suggest you send your complaint to the Ombudsman straight away. Also reply to QQ saying you have done this and pointing out they have not supplied you with your loan details, that you are entitled to a copy of your personal information under GDPR and if they do not send you this in the next two weeks you will be reporting them to the ICO for breaching the GDPR rules.
Christian white says
I have had about 40 loans with QQ between 2009 and 2013. Most were monthly roll overs up to £1500 towards the end. I’m now in a DMP which arose when the house was repossessed in 2011 and I was close to bankruptcy. The last loan with QQ is in the plan and now stands at about £380. Recently I signed up to a company that claims to be able to get payday loans refunded. My complaint against QQ has been with the FOS now for 16 weeks. It seems slow. I’ve asked my intermediary what to expect and they are saying to expect a 6 to 12 month wait. I wondered whether approaching QQ directly might result in some progress?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Talking to QQ directly will not speed things up. Your claims company should have informed you that cases with loans over 6 years old are very slow.
Can I ask how large the total debts currently in your DMP is?
KJ says
I had 33 loans with quick quid between 2009 and 2012. I submitted a complaint on 22nd Oct 2018 and got a rejection email on 29th October 2018. The email was very misleading re out of statutory time. If i had not researched this website i would have left it. I submitted a complaint to fos today.
Robin Savage says
I’ve just had a very similar email from QQ. I had 12 loans from QQ and one from Pounds to Pocket between 21/06/2010 and 28/02/2013. They have upheld my complaint explaining almost exactly what the sample letter in the blog post received, out of 6 year rule being their main argument and also because there was a point where there was 128 days between loans.
They have offered me £16.25 as a refund from a late payment.
Although there was a gap of 128 days, this doesn’t mean I still wasn’t struggling. I had a loan from Amigo Loans plus other payday loans to payback around this time and I was simply trying to keep my head above water.
I shall be contacting the FOS right now.
Chris says
Has anyone had any actual progress on complaints beyond this 6 year ruling? The whole thing is a farce, we know what is coming next QQ will go bump before they hand any bloody money back, I can see it coming!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
QQ’s American parent had a very good looking set of results a few weeks ago. Although it’s not impossible, it doesn’t look likely they will be going out of business soon.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Today one reader whose QQ 6 year complaint has been held up has been told that the Ombudsman has issued a decision they can consider the older loans in this case and it has been passed straight to an adjudicator to make a decision on the complaint.
They may have been many of these already – I am just passing this on as some sign of movement.
RY07 says
Thanks for the update Sara, promising
Chris says
I don’t suppose you know when that complaint above was actually lodged? would be nice to know so I can gauage whether I’m having a good christmas or a great one! :)
Scott says
My complaint was sent to the FOS in March 18 and QQ are still objecting to the consideration of older loans. Sit tight I guess.
Louise says
Hi has anybody been successful yet with Quickquid loans over 6 years old.Same email I keep getting is about the time limit objection being raised.Is there hope with these,mine are before 2015 so not sure what will happen Anybody been lucky??
Jane says
Hi Louise,
I had several loans with Quick Quid 2010-2012. Followed step one and two on the fabulous Debt Camel for reclaiming….
I had the same response.
I then sent my complaint and the response from Quick Quid to the FOS and had to supply further information including bank statements and current credit report.That was early October.The FOS has not rejected my claim based on the age (over 6 years)so I would recommend you proceed to the FOS if this is QQ’s final response.
Good luck!
Louise says
Hi Jane,yes mine have been with the fos since last year but fos just keep saying they are taking their time with the time limit objections with these loans.Suppose it’s a long waiting game.
sw says
My QQ complaint is well over 2 years old now, this is the update I had today:
Thank you for your email. Unfortunately I do not have an update for you at the moment. We’re currently waiting to see what Quick Quid’s position is following a number of final decisions that have been made. I apologise for the delay and appreciate your patience in this matter.
david says
I logged mine in Jan 2017 with 100% thanks going to this website, so i’m not far behind you.
frustrating to say the least but at least it shows it is the FOS making progress while QQ continually stall.
Chris says
Has anyone received any updates from FOS yet?
RY07 says
Got this today, mine has been with them almost 2 years –
Your complaint is still waiting to be reviewed to consider the business’ objection and for us to decide if we can consider the loans older than 6 years.
As you’re aware we have issued a few jurisdiction decisions on short term lending complaints that sets out what we think doesn’t start the 3 year part of the 6&3 time limit rule. While we have moved a step closer to resolving this issue, we still need businesses like Casheuronet to digest this approach.
I appreciate that your complaint has been with us for a long time and we’re hoping to let you know in due course whether we think we’re able to consider those loans older than 6 years. When we are able to do this someone will be in contact you.
Chris says
Does anyone have any advice – Ombudsman now wants statements from the 2008 period, I have submitted SAR to the bank they hold no account information anymore. I have provided P60s as proof of income, but now they would like to see utility bills, again something I do not have evidence of.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You just have to say when you have no evidence. If you borrowed from QQ for a prolonged period, I would hope that will be enough.
Chris says
Well I have over 30-40 loans spanning a period of 3 years, I think the longest period of time I went without one was 2 months.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
That sounds a good case to me. If you only had a few loans, without bank statements it will be very hard to win. But repeat borrowing over a long period tells its own story.
Chris says
Not QQ related, but I’ve just had a draft ruling against Instant Cash Loans – over 20 loans issued whilst I was unemployed, this is for cash for cheques not the usual PDLs back from 2008, all to be refunded + 8%.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Good – hopefully the Money Shop will pay out and not drag the decision to the Ombudsman level.
Charlotte says
I raised my complaint with FOS in June 2017. Today I finally got an email saying part of my complaint had been upheld for loans over 6 years old. QQ has until 8 April to respond. I’m looking at around £1500.
RY07 says
I had the same Charlotte, they have until 8th to reply to me too. Fingers crossed …
Dan F says
Hi,
So much fantastic information. I settled in October 2018 from Quick Quid before coming across the level of detail on this website, but as quite rightly pointed out they ignored 2 loans I had in 2011. I had 2 loans in December 2011, an initial affordable loan of £150, but 18 days later in the same month a top up loan of £500 with a staggering interest I paid of £300.
On my reading I am going to go back to tell them they mislead me on these older than 6 year old loans, and now I finally have a better understanding and based on the opinion of the FOS, they should consider refunding this top up loan as it was clearly unaffordable.
Any advice whether I have a case even though I settled on all loans within 6 years but didnt understand about older ones?
Thanks,
Dan.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
|how many loans did you have within the six years? How many of these did they refund?
Did your email from QQ use the exact words that I quoted in the above article?
Dan F. says
12 loans in the last 6 years, they refunded 6. Yes QQ used that exact wording.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
OK, well you can try… Go back to QQ and ask them to reconsider and if they refuse take the complaint to FOS.
My article was written to stop people who were getting that response from being misled at the time.
That doesn’t mean that you will find it easy to reopen your case. I will be interested to hear waht FOS say on your complaint.
Daniel F. says
Words QQ use in their previous final response to me….
You may only submit a complaint within six years of the event being complained of or three years from when you became reasonably aware of the event being complained of. In this instance, you are alleging our lending was irresponsible
With regard to the six year rule, loans…were funded more than six years before you complained, therefore, any complaint regarding these loans cannot be considered.
With regard to the three year rule in relation to being reasonably aware, it does not apply in this case because (then their long wording about financial crisis etc…)
Daniel F. says
Current situation with QQ…
Complained using a standard template in October 2018 for interest and charges. After they investigated they offered me about £300 on 18 loans I had taken out in last 6 years, 12 which had interest and charges (the other 6 I have repaid straight away or withdrew loans) and out of the 12 they upheld 5 loans for my complaint and said the other 7 were affordable so refunded nothing. My first 2 QQ loans were in 2011, and they ignored them due to 6 year rule.
As I received their response before I knew of Cameldebt and just not knowing the process, I just naively accepted their offer at risk of losing any refund if I went to the FoS and not knowing about negotiating. So I am aware can’t do anything about the 7 they claimed were affordable in the 6 year jurisdiction. Had same thing with Mr Lender, settled on an offer too quickly.
However regarding the two 2011 loans they ignored to investigate, I am yet to do anything since my acceptance letter few months ago but reading your website has questioned me whether I can go back about the 2 loans in 2011 as the top up loan interest is £300 on just a £500 top up end of month loan.
Thanks,
Dan.
Charlotte says
Hi,
I had loans in 2011-2012, first they responded saying they couldn’t find my account, then the second reply was they were rejecting my case as it was over the 6 years and why has it took me so long to contact them about it basically. Obvisiously I didn’t know that you could claim back for unaffordable loans untill 2017 but after I contacted them unfortunately I became unwell and didn’t go any further with it untill now. I decided to check if my account was still open which it is, so asked for a statement of my past loans which showed that I had 6 all together, the 1st one was for 200 which I paid off then months after I got another for 200 which I paid off but on the same day I applied for another at around 350, then did the same on 3 other loans at 500, 750 and 950. Around the same time I got a loan with wonga, leading stream and payday uk and also had another loan. I have forwarded it all to the ombudsman with the statement of past loans from QQ I also included emails between me and QQ which were about charges due to late payments and then I found one telling them about my debt management plan, I also included bank statements showing payments to debtline and also emails between me and debtline about quickquid.
As I’ve gone past the weekly time limit to when you can pass your case on to the Ombudsman I’m worried now that I won’t be eligible for anything.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If you are past the 6 month limit, you need to explain to the Ombudsman that you were unwell and they will decide if an exception can be made.