The Consumer Credit Act (CCA) gives you the right to be sent a copy of your credit agreement and a statement of your account for most loans, credit cards, catalogues, store cards and Hire Purchase agreements.
CCA agreements are important! If a creditor can’t find it then:
- you can’t get a CCJ for the debt; and
- you may decide to stop paying the debt.
But the right to ask for the CCA agreement doesn’t apply to:
- debts where there already is a CCJ;
- overdrafts,
- many household bills or tax debts;
- pre 2008 loans for more than £25,000;
- mortgages.
Sometimes asking for a CCA agreement is a good idea, but not always.
It shouldn’t normally be your first thought if you are having trouble paying a debt to the lender.
Asking for the CCA normally only works if your debt has been sold to a debt purchaser – unless the debt is very old.
Contents
How to ask for your CCA agreement
There is a template letter to ask for your credit agreement in this National Debtline factsheet. That factsheet also has a lot of information about CCA agreements and if you have any problems with one, talk to National Debtline.
This is not the same as templates asking for a copy of your personal information or making a Subject Access Request. If you want to find out if the debt is enforceable, use the specific CCA agreement wording.
Some points to be careful about:
- ask the current creditor for the CCA agreement, not the original creditor;
- you have to send a cheque or a postal order for £1;
- send the letter recorded delivery, keep a copy of it and the postage receipt.
Also read the rest of this article first! You need to know what you will do if the lender sends you the agreement and what if the lender doesn’t.
What happens if they don’t send the CCA agreement?
If you don’t get a copy of your CCA agreement within 12 working days of asking, the creditor can’t enforce the debt in court until they do send it to you.
If the creditor can’t easily find the CCA agreement they may send you an acknowledgement of your request. Something like the following is typical:
we acknowledge the 12 day time limit to provide this information but as we have to request the details from the original lender we anticipate that we will not be able to provide this within 12 days but hope that within 40 days we will have retrieved the information to comply with your request.
A 40 day period is often mentioned but doesn’t have any legal standing.
It’s very common for it to take more than 12 days to find the CCA. Don’t get excited because the 12 days has passed, it means nothing in practice.
I suggest waiting two or three months before you decide they can’t find the agreement and decide to stop paying them.
“Legal but not enforceable”
The letter from the creditor saying they haven’t found it yet should be clear that the debt is no longer enforceable but it still legally exists.
The creditor can ask you to pay the debt but, if you don’t, the creditor can’t do anything. They can’t hassle you to pay it. A polite letter every 6 months or a year is fine – frequent letters, texts or phone calls aren’t. This isn’t usually a problem in practice.
When a debt is unenforceable, that should be mentioned in any letters asking for payment. Here is what I suggested to a reader who was getting letters that left off this important fact: “Debt collector can’t prove it’s my debt but wants payment”
Here are some more implications of the debt being legal but not enforceable:
- if you claim a PPI refund, this may be set off against the balance you still owe.
- the debt can still be sold to another debt collector. Make sure you keep all the CCA agreement letters or emails so you can just tell the new creditor you asked for the CCA agreement on dd/mm/yy and you won’t be paying anything to the debt until it is produced.
- you may be able to leave the debt out of an application for a Debt Relief Order so it won’t count towards the maximum debt limit. Talk to your DRO adviser about this.
- See below for the effect on your credit record.
“So I can just stop paying?”
If your reason for asking for the CCA was hoping that you could stop paying the debt, then you could stop after 12 working days.
But in practice many CCA agreements are produced in the next few weeks. So, unless you can’t afford the monthly payments, I usually suggest not stopping it immediately. Leave it a couple of months.
If the debt is in a DMP you will have to tell the DMP firm to stop paying it. Dent them the letter from the creditor saying they can’t locate the agreement.
You may find the idea of not paying scary. If you do, talk to National Debtline about this debt and the rest of your financial situation. It does help, being able to talk to a friendly expert!
I would allow the debt collector two or three months before deciding that they aren’t going to be able to find it.
There is a small chance that the CCA agreement could be found later. This seems to be rare – if the debt collector hasn’t found it in the first few months the chances of it turning up later are very low.
“The creditor hasn’t said it is unenforceable”
Occasionally a creditor will tell you they cant produce it but you are still legally liable for the debt which is true, but irrelevant – if they cannot produce the CCA agreement the debt is unenforceable in court.
Sometimes the creditor goes into a lot of detail about how you have been paying so the debt isn’t statute barred. Also true but again irrelevant. You weren’t suggesting the debt was statute barred.
In this sort of situation, tell the creditor that you are not disputing whether you are liable for the debt or whether it is statute barred, but you would like the creditor to confirm that the debt is currently unenforceable as they have produced the CCA.
If the creditor persists with this, make a complaint and then send the complaint to the Financial Ombudsman. Here is the story of a case involving an old HSBC debt, where HSBC had to pay compensation for not admitting the debt was unenforceable.
“What about my credit record?”
Is this debt still showing on your credit record? Check all three credit reference agencies to make sure.
If it isn’t on there, then it will never reappear, whether you pay it in full, in part or just stop paying.
A debt marked as defaulted will drop off 6 years after the default date:
- it will not drop off sooner because the CCA cannot be found;
- the balance will not normally be set to zero because the CCA cannot be found.
When the debt does not have a default date, if you stop paying now, a default will be added and it will then drop off in 6 years. Not good news! Read What should the default date be? and ask the original creditor to add a default date back years ago.
A default will NOT be deleted if the CCA can’t be found. And you shouldn’t want that to happen – it would mean the record would stay on your file for even if you stop paying.
The whole debt will NOT be deleted if the CCA can’t be found. The debt still legally exists, even though it is unenforceable in court, and the creditor is entitled to report your credit history accurately for it.
“Should I offer a low settlement amount?”
Some people decide to offer a low settlement amount. I don’t think this is a good idea. You don’t need to do this! Not paying them anything is a perfectly good response in most cases! It is VERY VERY rare for a debt to turn up later.
A lot of creditors simply reject the low offer, even though you think it is sensible. They know that if they refuse you may decide to give them more. You cannot make a debt collector accept this low offer or complain they are being unfair if they don’t.
If you really want to make a settlement offer, stop paying them for a few months and then make the offer. That shows they can choose between your low offer and nothing.
The only time when you should try to get the debt settled is if it will still be showing on your credit record in a year or two when you want to apply for a mortgage. Then getting the debt marked as satisfied will help your mortgage chance a lot. But if the debt is no longer on your credit record or is dropping off soon, there is no need to do this.
What if they do send the CCA agreement?
How can you tell if it is right?
You have to be sent a “true copy” of the agreement – this doesn’t have to be a photocopy of the original agreement. It must be legible and it must include:
- your name and address when the account was opened;
- the creditor’s name and address when the account was opened;
- the terms and conditions of the account at that time, including the cost of credit (the Annual Percentage Rate), when you have to make payments and your cancellation rights; and
- any other documents that were mentioned in the Terms and Conditions.
It doesn’t have to have your signature on it. Indeed if you opened the account online you may well have signed it “digitally” and there is no document with your physical signature – this is perfectly legal.
If you aren’t sure what you have been sent is correct, you can ask National Debtline about it or you could post about it on the Legal Beagles forum.
This may sound complicated but usually either the creditor admits they can’t find it or what they send you is fine.
What should you do when the CCA agreement is found?
This depends on why you were asking for the CCA agreement.
If the creditor has started a court case (you have been sent a Claim Form) then you may have hoped that the CCA agreement could not be found. But now you have it, that is not a possible defence so you need to think if you have another defence. Talk to National Debtline about your options.
If you were planning on making settlement offers to some debts and were hoping the lack of a CCA agreement could get this one settled very cheaply, that has been ruled out and you need to proceed with a more substantial offer.
If you are fed up with having to pay this old debt for many more years, look at your alternatives. If you just stop paying, you may get taken to court – especially as the creditor now has the CCA agreement ready to hand! If you have more luck with some other debts turning out to be unenforceable, can you now pay more to this one? Or is it time to look at insolvency or other options?
When should you ask for the CCA agreement – and when shouldn’t you?
A lot depends on your exact debts, who the original creditor was, who the debt collector is, and what your other options are for tackling them. So there isn’t a simple checklist here.
How old is the account and has it been sold?
The older an account is, the less likely it is that a CCA agreement will be found. It’s the age of the account that matters, not how old the debt problem is. You may have only defaulted on a catalogue account a couple of years old, but if it was opened in 2010 that’s well worth a try!
For a debt that is still with the original creditor, I wouldn’t bother asking for the CCA agreement unless the debt was VERY old or you are getting letters from solicitors about court action.
If a debt has been sold once it is less likely the current creditor can produce the CCA agreement. And this gets harder the more times the debt is sold on.
Court action and CCJs
If the creditor is seriously threatening court action, always ask for the CCA agreement. It is worth a try!
But when you already have a CCJ for a debt, it is too late to ask for the CCA agreement as the creditor doesn’t have to send it. If you have just found out about the CCJ you need to look at your options for “setting it aside“, not send a request for the CCA agreement.
Contacts about a very old debt you have heard nothing about for years?
If you haven’t been paying a debt for years and you aren’t being hassled by a creditor, you need a good reason to ask for the CCA agreement. It may be better to wait and see if you are contacted and then ask for the CCA.
But when you are contacted about a very old debt, asking for the CCA agreement is a very good idea. you should think first if the debt is statute barred, Talk to National Debtline on 0808 808 4000. They have a template you can send the creditor saying the debt is statute barred. This is simpler than asking for the CCA agreement.
But if the creditor comes back with a reason why it isn’t statute barred, then your next step should be to ask for the CCA agreement.
Hoping to settle debts with a windfall
If you have a windfall – an inheritance say – and you have a lot of debt in a DMP for several years so most of it is with debt collectors, asking for CCA agreements before you make offers is sensible. You don’t need to pay them anything if they cant produce the CCA.
Thinking about bankruptcy, a DRO or an IVA
Where insolvency (DRO, IVA or bankruptcy) looks necessary, it can be a waste of time asking for CCA agreements, unless not paying those debts would make the rest manageable.
Contacted about a debt which not yours
If a debt collector says you owe money but you don’t recognise the debt, you should send them a Prove It! letter saying you dispute the debt. Here the CCA is only part of the picture. You may get sent a copy of the CCA in answer to this – if the name and address on the agreement are yours and you did live at that property at that point, it is good evidence.
But keep focussed on the fact that what matters is proving who the borrower is.
Here is a case “Debt collector can’t prove it’s my debt but wants payment” where a debt collector admitted the debt was unenforceable as the CCA couldn’t be found but wrongly still asked for payment.
Summary
In summary, asking for the CCA agreement is an uncertain process that can take months. If you have a lot of debts, make sure you are looking at the bigger picture, as well as thinking about the individual debts.
Can you really offer just £1 to a debt?
Could a Debt Relief order help you?
When to ask for a debt write off
Matt says
Hi
With reference to the previous comment and advice, if I can make the credit card debt I have with collectors unenforcable by asking for CCA, and then they drop off my file im the next 12 months, can anyone see them? What about the original lender who sold the debt on? My partner is very frustrated that we cannot move home, as the debt I have is from a previous relationship. Thanks as always
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The original lender may be able to see that you defaulted to them from their own records but that always applies, even if you repaid the debt in full to the debt collector. Because of this, you should always try to avoid apply to the original lender for credit in future.
The original lender is very very very unlikely to to see what happened to the debt with the debt collector – that would require them to be able to ask the debt collector specifically, that would be a hassle (ie waste time and money) for both the lender and the debt collector, no one wants to do this. I have never heard of this happening.
See https://debtcamel.co.uk/mortgage-debts-not-on-credit-record/which looks at what mortgage lenders can see.
Matt says
And I am guessing their own records then last longer than the 6 years on my credit file?
Thanks!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
A lender can retain records for as long as it wants. It is sensible to assume that a lender has done this.
James says
Sara reference to your reply yesterday at 6:12 – I was under the impression that on CRA’s such as Clear Score and Credit Karma that missed payments of defaulted accounts would still be noted and included as part of your overall score, from what you’re saying I guess that isn’t true for defaulted accounts (even if they’re “open” but technically not) and missed payments are from accounts which haven’t defaulted?
Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The problem here if you are reading different things elsewhere on the internet is that “defaulted debts” can mean different things to different people.
Some people think they have defaulted on a debt if they miss a payment. Some people use it for when a lender has issued a formal Default Notice under the Consumer Credit Act. Some people use it to mean when a debt shows as default on your credit record. And this is made more complicated by the language some credit reports use.
What I am saying is that if there is a default date showing on a debt record with a credit reference agency (Experian, Equifax or TransUnion) then for every month after that the debt is treated as defaulted until it is satisfied or drops off 6 years after the default date.
If you have agreed a payments arrangement on a debt where there is a default date showing, this will not improve your credit score, it is still assessed as defaulted. And if you then miss a payments to it that will not make your credit score worse, it is still assessed as defaulted.
Is that clear?
James says
Yes that’s clear, really appreciate your help and patience.
Thanks
David says
Thanks Sara. I will certainly request the cca’s for all the old credit cards now, and hopefully I can stop paying some of them. I can then look at the situation with RBS once my income situation is clear.
Sunji Takhr says
Good afternoon,
Thank you for the informative article. It was very helpful.
I used to work for Barclaycard and Got a staff Barclaycard in 2010, I defaulted on this card in 2016/2017. The debt has been sold onto another company called PRA GROUPS? They have been friendly and helpful in accepting my reduced monthly repayments for the last year.
My question is; as this is an 11 year old card, and it was initially a staff card which I think I took out over the phone. Would it be worth requesting the cca? As it has been sold on and they seemed quite happy with my reduced payment, debt is £7000ish remaining) I just don’t want them to them start demanding more money if they are annoyed about the cca request? Apologies if I’m being overly dramatic I just don’t want to get chased by them again as this is my only debt.
Many thanks,
Sunji
Sara (Debt Camel) says
There are two reasons why a creditor may not be able to produce the CCA. First the original creditor doesn’t have it – I have no idea if that is more likely to happen with a staff card or less likely. It isn’t that common with a major lender for cards after 2007.
The second reason is that when the debt was sold, the contract did not allow the debt purchased the right to ask the original lender to produce the CCA agreement. This may be the case or it may not be – the on;t way to find out is to ask.
It doesn’t normally make much sense for a debt collector to start demanding more money if you ask for the CCA. It could happen, nothing is guaranteed with these CCA requests. I am afraid you have to weigh up the chance of not having to pay a significant amount against possibly being asked to pay more if the CCA agreement is found.
Grant says
Just for everyones help, I would like to thank Sarah and report a sucess.
I have asked all my older creditors for the CCA. Some have been found, but I have finally had one come back with a “it cannot be found at the moment”.
I suspect if they can’t find it at the moment, there is a reasonable chance it won’t be found, and the Debt Collection company have said in their letter that “although the debt remains, it is currently unenforceable – however you should still make repayments as the debt will never be paid off if you don’t” or words to that effect.
However it means that I can now move money to the other debts and not really worry about that one any more.
So do ask for the CCA where appropriate – it works!
Luke says
Hi Sarah, firstly thanks so much for posting this, it’s incredibly helpful. I just wanted to ask for your opinion on my personal situation.
I have ten accounts all defaulted from 2018/2019, all those defaults are expected to clear in the next 2-3 years. I have received many offers of partial settlement and a lot of them are offering 40% as I have been on DMP for over 2 years. 3 of the 10 accounts are with Cabot, another 2 with Moorcroft and the rest are still the original creditors (Barclaycard, Eon, Halifax overdraft and Barclays overdraft)
Firstly, does the CCA cover overdrafts? One of them has been passed on to another agency.. should I bother trying to get the CCA for those accounts?
And also, could there be any potential impact on me just simply asking for CCA for the purpose of seeing if that have it or not? I am not currently in a position to pay off my debts (however I expect that to change in the following months) but I also would rather not pay them if I don’t have to
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I have ten accounts all defaulted from 2018/2019
So there is an actual default date against all of them on your credit records? If there is, they will drop off your credit record in 2024/25
Firstly, does the CCA cover overdrafts?
No.
3 of the 10 accounts are with Cabot,
Those sound the only possible ones to ask for a CCA for. No point in asking for a debt which hasn’t be sold unless it defaulted a VERY long time ago.
all those defaults are expected to clear in the next 2-3 years
in that case a 40% settlement offer is pretty good, isn’t it?
If you ask for a CCA and it cant be produced and you stop paying, then the debt will be showing as not satisfied until it drops off.
Luke says
Thanks so much for your reply.
Yes I have 10 accounts all with default dates according to my credit report – the earliest default date is from January 2018.
You mentioned that there’s no point in asking about a debt which hasn’t been sold unless defaulted a long time ago. Could you please clarify? I’m not sure if I understand what it means when the debt is sold. For example, I have two accounts with Intrum/ Moorcroft – originally they were a Halifax debit account and Halifax credit card and passed over to Intrum/ Moorcroft. The default dates on those accounts are from January 2019. Do you think it would be worth asking them for CCA?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Moorcroft normally collects debts on behalf of a creditor – if that was the original lender it isn’t worth asking for a CCA for, but those debts have been sold to Intrum.
originally they were a Halifax debit account
so an overdraft? No CCA is applicable.
For the card and loan debts that have been sold, I do not know how likely it is that the current creditor can produce the CCA.
Jade says
Hi Sara,
I have a link financial account (old barclaycard) which is about to drop off my credit file (barclaycard agreed to backdate the default and waiting for Experian to update). We recently made a full and final offer of 30% which they refused. They wanted 80% which we don’t have. I have been making £1 payments for the last 2 years via payplan, however as all other creditors accepted our offers link are our only debt and so payplan closed our dmp. I requested the CCA a few months ago, I’ve been told today they’ve found it and I’m waiting for it to arrive.
My question is, what do I do now? Keep paying £1 or will I have to disclose my income/outgoings to come to a more substantial payment arrangement?? I am panicking as we are looking to get a mortgage early next year so worried that this will have a negative impact. We could pay the debt at 80% but this would leave us with no mortgage deposit and we will be stuck renting which is more expensive.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Well do see what they send…
But if it is a valid CCA, then you need to settle this debt. Just making a small monthly payment isn’t good enough as a mortgage lender will see the repayments on your credit record and know there is a defaulted debt. So any debts needs to be settled 6 months before any mortgage application.
Debi says
Hi Sara
Thankyou for all of your advice PRA have just accepted a full and final settlement offer which I am very pleased with if I could just tell you what the email reads “we’re delighted to let you know we can accept the following offer to settle your account. When paid if your account is reporting on your credit file we’ll send an update that shows partially satisfied. Is there anything else I need to ask for is this OK as a full and final settlement
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No that’s fine. How long ago is the the default date on the credit record?
Debi says
Hi Sara everything has dropped off.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
In that case it will not reappear and you can ignore the bit about marked as partially satisfied.
Chris says
Hi Sara My house was repossessed in 2011 – mortgage was with Northern Rock. I was left with a balance of about £45000 still to pay. It currently stands at about £19000 and is now with Landmark mortgages. I have had no contact with Landmark for at least 3 years – no statements of account or any reminders about defaults etc. The debt is in my DMP. It makes up about 50% of the DMP.
The sale of the house together with the payments I had already made have easily paid off the original loan and, together with the payments I have made under the remaining debt, probably means I have paid well over £40000 on top of the original loan. A friend keeps telling me to stop paying the loan and take it out of the DMP. I just wondered whether there was any advice you could offer about continuing to repay it or even if this might fall under this post. Sorry – a bit of an odd one! Thanks.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
so you still owe about 38k in your DMP? How much do you pay to it each month?
I assume you are renting not buying?
Chris says
I am renting now – yes. I pay about £300 a month into the DMP now.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Have you looked at bankruptcy? This would have been a very good idea in 2011 but it may well be a good idea now. I suggest you talk to National Debtline on 0808 808 4000
Leigh says
Hi Sara :)
I had a CCA request with PRA Group (Barclaycard Debt) come back as they can’t find it – so now the debt is unenforceable.
As per advice on this thread, I instructed StepChange to stop paying in March 21.
All has been quiet, but since about a week ago – I’m now getting 2 calls/voicemails a day and an email asking me to get in touch to discuss options. I’ve checked – and the email does have the unenforceable line in it:
“This account is currently unenforceable, which means that we cannot take court action against you at this time, however, please note the balance remains payable. If your account changes status and becomes enforceable we will notify you. If you wish to find out more about your rights, please refer to our FAQ section.”
What is my best course of action here? Ignore? Or speak to them and advise that I won’t be making payments as the debt is unenforceable?
I had planned on making a low F&F in August (5%), just to get them off my back for good.
Best,
Leigh
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you tell them you won’t be paying. And don’t make an offer for another couple of months. They may well refuse a 5% offer – I don’t know why people are so keen to make these offers.
Leigh says
Hi Sara. Thanks. After some time, will they just go away – even if I don’t make any offers etc?
I’m planning on trying to get a mortgage around this time next year – so I just figured it would be good to know that they are gone for good and can’t come back to bite me. Say they do miraculously find it down the line (which I believe is a low chance) – I’m guessing that they will have to inform me of this and give me some option to restart payments, as opposed to just whacking me with a CCJ?
Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
at some point, yes. Tell them clearly you won’t be paying now and ask for all future communications to be by letter. And again in another month. If they carry on pestering, send them a formal complaint a month after that.
I can’t remember one of these miraculous events happening.
Debi says
Hi Sara.
PRA have been paid and they have sent an email to say the account with them is closed and they will be marking my credit report as partially satisfied, which I’m OK with but they have also put on the email. “closing balance £6,375” which is what is left after they have accepted my offer and payment is this correct or should it show as zero.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The balance on a partially satisfied account should be zero. I suspect that is what they mean and the email to you was badly worded.
Debi says
Should I email them and point it out.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You could say you want to check that.
Doug says
I had a 14 year old overdraft thar I offered 40% on but they would only accept 60%. No one so far has accepted less than 40%.
Incidentally they have supplied me with a “CCCA” agreement for another account that is simply a typed document. The account was opened well before online account applications were a thing. It has no date on it either and claims to be between me and the parent company of the lender. Not the actual lender I had the account with.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
This is a very old DMP. What is the total debt balance in it? How much are you paying a month? Are you buying or renting?
How many creditors have been unable to produce the CCA agreement? Have you stopped paying them?
Have you asked whether the CCA agreement you were sent was compliant, eg on Legal Beagles forum?
Doug says
DMP originally had a balance of £150k. Now down to about 90. I had about 25 creditors. I asked for CCA agreements in Feb but continued paying via the DMP up to last month. Of the 25 so far only 3 proper CCA’s have been provided plus this one PRA generic document. House is in my wife’s name and my mortgage contributions are part of the DMP expenditure.
I intend to stop paying this month and am expecting grief from creditors. Capq** have already sent me letter saying CCA can’t be found therefore I must contact them to make payments. No mention of unenforceable. I sent a complaint and got an answer that they had simply sent the wrong letter. A week later they sent the same letter again so it wasn’t wrong, just a ploy to bully. I complained again saying I wouldn’t accept that as an excuse and am waiting for their 8 week response.
One creditor has totally ignored my CCA request and subsequent complaint.
I posted on legal beagles yesterday.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
well fingers crossed your enforceable debt drops a LOT from 90k.
Tell the creditors that have not produced a CCA that you are stopping paying and will only resume if they produce the CCA. Ask for all further communications to be in writing, say you do not want to receive phone calls or text messages.
Mark says
Hi Sara,
I’ve had a couple of different debt collection agencies chasing me for a credit card that I apparently defaulted on in 2016. I’ve ignored all of them, mainly Arrow Global, up until earlier this year, when ‘Drydensfairfax’ took it. Research leads me to believe they are the same people but the latter painted as a solicitor. They started chasing me fairly hard, eventually sending me an LBA in March. As I was fairly concerned I sent a ‘prove it’ letter to them. They responded in April and said they’d get back to me.
Skip to 5 months later, and this morning they sent a letter saying the following:
‘Unfortunately our client has been unable to provide a copy of the Credit Agreement at present however have confirmed this was applied for via the online service.
Despite the above the balance remains due and owing and it is important the matter is addressed.
If the above clarifies matters, we would ask that you now contact to arrange payment.’
All language about legal action has disappeared, as have the deadlines they previously imposed in most correspondence. However, there’s no mention of it now being unenforceable as per your advice above.
Am I in the clear? What should I do from here? Thanks!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So that wording does not actually say the debt is unenforceable. I suggest you reply saying “can you please confirm that this debt is currently unenforceable until you have supplied a copy of the CCA agreement.”
Is the debt still showing on yiur credit record? If it is, what is the default date?
Mark says
It is. Default showing on my credit file as November 2016.
Thanks Sara. I’ll respond and ask.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
if you get something vague back, I suggest you follow the “correct” procedure to ask for a CCA agreement in the article above, including sending them a cheque for £1. Rather than just ask them to prove the debt.
Mark says
Hi Sara,
I responded asking them the above, and they will have received that early last week. So far they haven’t come back to me properly, they’ve just reverted to sending me what they were sending me in April, which is basically a robotic automatic letter every 5 days asking me to contact them or further action will be taken.
This morning the letter says I need to contact them before the 14th or they’ll issue a letter of claim. This is exactly what happened in April, they can’t or don’t respond in time before they send the next letter.
Should I just send the official one you mentioned, or wait for another response? Frustrating.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
yes, send the correct format letter and enclose a £1 cheque.
Have they sent you a Letter Before Claim/Action? See https://debtcamel.co.uk/letter-before-claim-ccj/ for what one of these looks like.
Mark says
They haven’t yet this time. In April they sent one but told me to disregard it in a later letter as they had then received my ‘prove it’ letter. Now after 5 months and ‘we can’t find your CCA’ they’ve reverted to the same thing from the beginning again. So I’m sure there’ll be one coming.
They don’t give enough time to get your response before they forge ahead with the next letter. I’m a bit confused as to how a court case would go if they’ve already said there’s no CCA?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The aim is not to go to court…
Yiou can send them a formal written complaint detailing everything that has happened.
I always prefer people to have used the correct letter to request the CCA and send the £1 cheque. Then you are fully protected by legislation.
Mark says
So little update.. I sent them that letter plus a £1 postal order. They sent the postal order back in a hand-written envelope with the letter I sent them, a photocopy of the envelope, and a hand-written note saying the postal order is no longer required. First time I’ve ever had anything off them done by hand.
They didn’t include anything else; no response to the letter, so I’m not really sure what their next move will be, but I’ll just wait and see I suppose!
Mark says
Right.. More info Sara. On Friday I got a letter from drydensfairfax in response to the request that says ‘Thanks for your recent communication. This account is now closed with ourselves. Any further communication should be directed to Arrow Global.’ So still nothing about it not being enforceable, but it sounds like they might know that.
This morning, I’ve received a letter from Arrow (dated 20th, one day before the date on the aforementioned letter from DF) that again lists the details of the debt and that I should arrange payment, but nothing else no CCA agreement or anything. It also says I should direct any correspondence to drydensfairfax, the same people who have just told me they’re done with it.
What should I do from here?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Have you sent Arrow a written complaint?
Mark says
I haven’t, no, but if you think I should, then I will. I was expecting a letter from Arrow at some point after the other lot decided not to pursue me further, but not quite like this one. Thanks for your help, as ever.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I would give them a month from when you sent off the CCA request.
Maggie says
Hi Sara,
How can I tell if a debt has been sold or is being collected on behalf of my original lender?
I’m currently making payments to the following on old defaults via my DMP and am not quite sure what’s worth requesting the CCA for:
AIC – RBS debt, went from Wescot to Moorcroft to AIC
Asset Collections & Investigations – Peachy debt
Hoist – Newday debt, went from Robinson Way to Hoist
Link – Barclaycard debt
Lowell – 118 Money debt
Lowell – Vanquis debt, went from Moorcroft to Lowell
NCO – Littlewoods/Very debt
Thanks in advance for any advice.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
1) If you look at your credit reports, only creditors report debts. So if the debt shows under the debt collectors name, they have bought it.
If the debt shows under the original lenders name as being open and being paid, and there is no sign of the debt collector, then the debt collector is probably collecting on behalf of the original lender.
This won’t work if the debts are so old they have dropped off your credit record.
2) read the letters / emails from the debt collector. Do they say they are collecting on behalf of the original lender?
3) ask the debt collector – they will tell you.
Of the ones you list, Lowell, Hoist and Link are VERY likely to have bought the debt.
Mike_p says
What would you class as very old? I have a Barclaycard that I originally took out as an Egg card in 2002, a Nationwide card taken out in 2004 and a Virgin card taken out in 2010 that was originally administered by MBNA but has now moved to Clydesdale Bank. Do you think it’s worth asking for the CCAs or shoud I keep quiet? I’m worried that if they do find them then they might be more likely to get sent to someone that buys the debt, reducing the chance of them being unenforcible later. On the other hand if I can stop paying them now it will save me a lot of money.
They are all in a DMP so will end up with defaults.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
not easy to judge when the best time to do this is…
when did your DMP start? what is the total of debts in it and how much are you paying a month? are these debts a large proportion of your DMP?
Mike_p says
It started in June this year. The total is now around £40k and I’m paying £940 a month. These three are around £10k each and there are a number of smaller more recent ones making up the rest. I made affordability complaints to them all asking for details of credit limit histories. Barclaycards response only went back to when they acquired it from Egg, Virgin/Clydesdales response only went back to when they acquired it from MBNA, and Nationwide’s went right back to the day I opened it.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok so the DMP is very new. Anecdotally many banks are selling a lot fewer debts at the moment, it’s unclear why.
Is the £940 affordable for you? If it is, then your debts are going to be cleared in less than 4 years assuming they have all frozen interest.
If a debt hasn’t been defaulted yet and the creditor can’t produce the CCA agrement, then it will be defaulted when you stop paying and you then have them as unpaid defaults on your credit record for 6 years. Are you sure you wouldn’t rather just pay off these debts through the DMP?
How good do you think the affordablity complaints are? that could bring forward your debt free date a lot!
Mike_p says
Yes the £940 is affordable and we’ve been managing fine so far., they have all frozen interest.
Barclaycard have sent me a default notice, Nationwide have said they intend to in a letter to Stepchange, and Virgin have made no mention of it yet. My thinking was if that if once one had been defaulted then I’d unnecessarily be repaying it if they couldn’t produce the CCA agreement.
I think the recent loan affordability compaints are good as I had multiple credit limit increases while I had payday loans, however the interest wouldn’t be that significant compared to the DMP level. I don’t think the complaints against the three I mentioned are as good as they were 5+ years ago and I’d been making more substantial repayments. I’ve sent them all to the FOS though.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
My thinking was if that if once one had been defaulted then I’d unnecessarily be repaying it if they couldn’t produce the CCA agreement.
Well yes. But if you win some affordability complaints and get the DMP down to 3 years – that looks possible? Then In 4 years your credit record will be looking a lot better if you have repaid all the defaulted debts than if you have some which are sitting as defaulted and not being paid.
If you want to pay as little as possible, you could just look at bankruptcy!
I have no idea if they will be able to produce the CCA agreements. I think it’s unlikely the debts will be sold anytime soon though as you are making significant payments to them… so holding off and hoping to ask a debt collector for the CCA agreement and hoping it is then unenforceable isn’t that likely to work.
Mike_p says
Thanks for your advice. I was thinking of total outlay but I think I’ll just stick with it so I can get my credit record looking better soon and have a clear end to things.
I’ve been surprised at how pleasant the lenders have been to deal with. Paypal credit has been a bit of a pain as they still haven’t acknowledged I’m on a DMP nor credit any of the payments to my account. Stepchange say they always take ages as they have to write to them in Ireland and only accept payment by cheque, which seems rather bizarre for an online payments company.
Helen Leisi says
I need some advice please. I have a debt with Link Financial. I think they purchased it from AA Finance so won’t have a copy of the CCA. In October 2019 I stopped paying and requested a copy of the CCA in the appropriate way. I never received a response at all so I just left it. Recently I have been receiving letters from a solicitor about it. They even sent one to my husband! On September 16th Link Financial received another letter from me explaining this and again requesting the CCA with a £1 cheque. It’s now 18 working days later and I haven’t received a response. Basically my question is…. What do I do if they never respond and I continue to get the solicitor and court letters?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I think they purchased it from AA Finance so won’t have a copy of the CCA.
let’s be clear – you are hoping they can’t produce a copy of the CCA.
Did you send them a cheque the first time round? was it cashed?
Have the solicitors sent you a letter Before Action/Claim – see https://debtcamel.co.uk/letter-before-claim-ccj/ for what one of these letters looks like.
Helen Leisi says
Hi Sara,
I did send a cheque in 2019 but I never checked if it was cashed. I can check if the one I sent about a month ago has been casged though. Not online unfortunately so a job for tomorrow. .
I know they received the letter in 2019 because I had sent a cheque for £2 and 2 separate letters requesting CCA’s for 2 debts. They wrote to me and asked for a separate £1 payment and now I come to think of it I actually sent a £1 postal order.
It was only after they didn’t respond in 2019 that I started thinking they don’t have the CCA because if they did, they would have sent it to get me to pay the debt.
Thanks for your help.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Well you can send them a formal complaint that they never responded to your previous request.
Have you been sent a letter Before Action/Claim? by the solicitors? this is very important.
Helen Leisi says
In all honesty Sara, I couldn’t bring myself to read the solicitor letter properly as it put my anxiety through the roof. I decided to concentrate on finding out if they have the CCA because I need to know that before I can decide the best course of action. I do still have itje letter but I’ll have to pick a good moment to look at it again. Today has not been a good day.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok, this sort of thing is tough as so much seems uncertain. If you haven’t had an LBA, they are just bluffing about going to court…
Helen Leisi says
Thanks Sara. Do you mean if they have sent an LBA there is a good chance they have the CCA?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No! I mean you need to know if they have sent an LBA or not.
Kevin says
Good Afternoon Sara
Please could you help I have followed the information you have given about the CCA agreement with the £1 postal order with Moorcroft and had a few replies over the last couple of months then today I had this letter.
“Further to your recent communication in respect of the above account, we are writing to confirm we have been in contact with HSBC and upon investigation of your account our client have advised us that a copy of the agreement is not available on this account. We must stress that we are not seeking to enforce an agreement and have only asked that payment is made towards a debt that is outstanding by way of affordable repayment plan. However, if you believe we are unable to ask that your account is repaid in this manner please provide us with specific details so that our client can address any specific concerns you may have. This request is made so that we can understand any concerns you may have and to help minimise potential costs and delays. The account will be put on hold for 30 days”.
I stopped paying £1 a month in January this year and the debt does not show on my credit report with Credit Karma or Experian, I have exchanged letters with Moorcroft since January and in June they sent me a letter asking to contact them to discuss a partial settlement figure, which I did not follow up on. Prior to paying the £1 a month to Moorcroft, it was paid to Metropolitan. So please could you advise on the best reply I can send Moorcroft.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You could just say that as the debt is unenforceable you do not intend to make any further payments to it.
How large is the balance? How old is the debt?
Kevin says
Hi Sara
Thank you, the debt is £7000 and it is more than 12 years old it. So I just reply that it is unenforceable and don’t supply any specific details is that correct.
Thanks Again.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Why not? You could phrase this as a question “You have said the CCA agreement cannot be produced, so by my understanding the debt is not enforceable, is that correct? If it is, I will not be making any further repayments to it.” That may get a clearer responses from them.
Kevin says
Thank You, will try that and let you know…
Steph says
Hi Sara,
I have been in a DMP for over 7 years and have only 2 debts remaining, one with Hoist the other with Link Financial both for approx £3500.
Requested the CCA on both accounts back in May 2021, Link responded within 12 days stating debt was unenforceable etc and to date I have still not received the CCA or any further correspondence from them.
Hoist is another matter which I’m confused about. Original CCA request in May, sent the £1 postal order to them using the correct template, however postal order was returned within 3 days with a letter stating the £1 was no longer needed for this type of request. I took advice on this from a debt advice company who confirmed that the payment was still needed. I resent the same request and postal order to Hoist in June and again the postal order was returned with the same response as before. I then received a letter from them on 7th July stating my request was being dealt with and the CCA had been requested from the original creditor (Halifax) and would be received within 90 days. No mention of the debt being unenforceable at all.
Last week I received 2 auto-generated letters from them requesting I set up a payment plan with them, even though I have made monthly payments through the DMP and have never missed a payment in 7 years.
How do you suggest I proceed?
Many Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Are you still paying both debts?
Steph says
Hi Sara, thanks for responding.
Yes, still paying the monthly agreed amount via the DMP for both debts. Have actually just been looking over the correspondence from Hoist, no mention of the CCA request at all, just that they are handling my ‘Query’ and will respond within 90 days. Pointless me re-sending the same CCA request and postal order as they’ll just return it.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So the Link one you can simply stop paying. It’s been a long while! Tell them you will restart if they produce the CCA.
Hoist you made things complicate sending it again with a postal order. I suggest you reply to them that you are waiting for them to supply the CCA agreement.
Steph says
Hi Sara,
Thanks for the response.
I was advised to resend as the £1 fee is required for the CCA request.
As Hoist are not even acknowledging that my request was relating to the CCA and that my account is currently unenforceable would you suggest that I mention this in my response, and should I wait until the 90 days has passed as mentioned in their letter to me?
Many thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If a lender has told you in writing they don’t want the £1, then that’s fine.
Anyway, it’s up to you if you want to ignore Hoist, tell them you are waiting for the CCA agreement, stop the cure payment or what. There isn’t a clear “right thing” to do here, just don’t let them badger you and ignore the CCA request.
Jack says
Quick question that wasn’t clarified in the article above.
If they cannot present the CCA, does this mean the default can be deleted from your credit file?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No. The debt still legally exists, they just can’t enforce it in the court.
TD says
Do banks have to find your CCA for a PPI refund? I tried to get PPI refunds on debts but all failed would they of had to of found my CCA when I did this? If so would it be a waste of my time to ask for them now?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No, a CCA agreement is not at all relevant for PPI refunds.
Are these debts still with the original lender? or have they been sold to a debt collector? Are they still showing on your credit record?
TD says
Sold on and from many years ago. We were in a debt management plan but we mange it ourselves now.
No they are not still showing on my credit record.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
then asking for CCA agreement s may be a good idea.
Even if the banks have them, that doesn’t mean the debt collector will be be able to get them
TD says
Hi Sara idem have sent me info back but I’m unsure if it’s a True copy. It has my name and address on it but no date to establish when the agreement took place and no signature or box saying the tick represents a signature.
Not sure what I need to do now.
Many Thanks
PS It also has no mention of who the original leader was?!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
See the article above for what to do if what you have been sent doesn’t look right.
TD says
Do I have to do anything if they do find them? I am not currently in a position to offer a full and final settlement.
Thank you for your support.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No, you just carry on making monthly payments.
Karen says
Hi Sara,
Can you help? I’m suffering from bad mental health and trying to sort out debts. Most companies have written off, but one company which is currently on hold, has sent the cca agreement, but it’s not real as I have an original letter from the lender, which says . …. If you want a copy of the cca let us know and we will send you one! So they never sent me one in the first place. This was for Safestyle purchase, Barclay finance and now gone to intrum. Cabot are also being terrible and keep making things worse by contacting me. I’ve sent docs letters to them to say I’m critical and also asked for the cca . I can’t deal with them as my health cannot take it and I’m now only on benefits. Is there anything you can suggest to stop them
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Very sorry to hear about your health problems. Next time you have to talk to Intrum or Cabot, ask to see to someone in their vulnerable customer team.
You may never have been sent the CCA in the first place but I don’t think that means it doesn’t exist.
How large are the remaining debts that haven’t been written off? How old are these debts? How long has it been since you have only been making token payments?
Sorry for all the questions!
TD says
Ok Thank you so much for your help. I’m going to give it a go. Some of ours have been sold on 2 or 3 times so hopefully that will work out in our favour.
Bobby says
Hi Sara,
11 Accounts in total, 7 have come back with the CCA’s. Cabot sent a reconstituted one which seems fine & lowell sent via email as my address has changed recently. To be fair it seems ok what they sent.
My question is I have a current debt with Lantern (originally Wage Day Advance) & have received the CCA. The only thing is they haven’t included my post code on the terms? This seems a bit strange as all the other returned CCA’s have it.
Am I paranoid, it’s such a small thing?
Btw will be setting this account in the next couple of months.
KR
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suspect that means the CCA is OK, but you would have to ask an expert about that – the article above says who you should talk to about this.
KC says
Hi Sara
Thanks again for your help. I have some feedback on my case with Link Financial just in case this helps anyone.
I submitted a CCA request to Link Financial at the end of July, I have been chasing this up via their online portal to send them messages since, and I have finally received a letter from them in the post saying they haven’t been able to get this from Barclaycard yet, and although the debt isn’t enforceable they can continue to register the default.
In case this helps anyone, this was from a Barclaycard opened in 2011 and i defaulted on it in Nov 2015. The default is due to drop off next month.
I am reluctant to just stop paying, but I am looking to apply for a mortgage by the end of next year and as this is now the only problem on my credit file and due to come off next year, I was worried the only thing stopping the mortgage would be the monthly payments to Link on my bank statements every month. If i stop paying in a couple months time, then it won’t appear on them and therefore it won’t appear to exist.
I am currently paying £18 per month and the balance is £4700.
I am hoping they cannot produce the CCA in the next couple of months, I am going to wait that little longer just to make sure.
Thanks again for your help!
Bobby says
Hi Sara,
I need some advice as I’ve had a pretty horrendous two weeks. I’ve spent hours on the phone with Cabot & Wescot.
Long story short my biggest debts (Cabot loan, wescot cc & pra cc) I sent a cca request in late july (24th). Cabot are saying they haven’t been able to find it yet and its unenforceable, same situation with PRA. Wescot appear to have provided a cca so I got in touch and as they have sent me a settlement offer for the last few years (£364 on a £1206 debt) I said I could now pay.
They came back with the best they can do is £602. Really frustrating.
I’ve also got a feeling the cabot & PRA cca will turn up.
Should I just pay the £602 to Wescot?
Cabot loan they’re offering to settle for £1,156 (outstanding£4,626) & PRA £600 (outstanding £1,805). Even though they haven’t been able to find cca yet, if they do I’m really anxious.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
There is no point in spending hours on the phone, it won’t find your debt, get them to admit they can’t find it, or get you a lower offer – it’s just pain for you.
You don’t have to settle at 602 if you don’t want to or can’t afford it. Tell them you don’t have enough to settle all your debts at that percentage and other debt collectors are offering between 25% and 30% (which is completely accurate) so unless they will accept £364 you will carry on making monthly payments.
But this is up to you.
“A feeling” – lots of people worry but then the CCA can’t be found. If you have the money and are very anxious, then you can settle. They may be trying to bluff you into doing this. Or the CCA may turn up. Who knows.
Matt says
Hi I would like to update you and ask more advice. I have 6 debts (35K) all in default and now all approaching the 6 year mark, in fact one has just dropped off my file. I have been managing these myself with the help of National Debtline. I sent CCA requests to 4 of the 6 held by debt collection agencies and have had 3 replies. Two have said they are requesting the details and will suspend collection until they produce it. One that has arived today says “Unfortunately the original creditor has confirmed they are currently unable to comply with your request within the 12 day timeframe. Although the debt is currently unenforceable the remaining balance remains collectable and it is acceptable for creditors to register and continue the reporting of a default. We will contact you further upon receipt of an update from the original creditor”
So do I stop the standing order ? On a separate note, a comment earlier was asking about CCA for overdrafts in a recent case, is it still the case they are not covered? Many thanks Matt
Sara (Debt Camel) says
do I stop the standing order ?
That’s up to you. You can stop it and tell the debt collector you will restart if the CCA is produced. Or just pay for another month or two and cancel feeling more confident at that point that they won’t be able to produce it.
a comment earlier was asking about CCA for overdrafts in a recent case
It was a 2019 case. Not legally binding and I can’t find the judgment.
Matt says
Thank you! So the wording of the letter is a standard unenforcable letter? It was just that the others said they would suspend collecting
Sara (Debt Camel) says
There isn’t really a standard letter here. I don’t think you can guess that the CCA a for this debt is more or less likely t be produced that the ones where the debt collector is suspending payment. You just have to wait and see.
TD says
I have received 4 out 5 letters back after requesting CCA’s. All so far saying they need to contact original leader. Link have yet to make contact. Royal Mail tracking states it was signed for on 27th Sept so the 12 days are up today, post has been and no letter. From what I’ve read on here it seems Link tend to ignore your request, my question is what do I do now? Do I just wait? I’m reluctant to contact them as I have read that that could reset the time they have to search for the cca and confuse matters.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Oh I would wait another couple of weeks then send them an email asking why you had not had a reply.
TD says
Will do, thank you.
Beanie says
Hi Sara,
My wife died in June this year and I am sorting matters out as her executor. She had 3 old credit card debts on a DMP with Payplan – they are pre 2006. As her executor I have asked the companies two of whom are not the original lenders for the CCA – Link banked the cheque but produced nothing, Idem Servicing cannot produce the CCA and Capital did produce the CCA. I have yet to commence probate but will soon and she will have an estate as she left her share of our house to our children under a trust. I understand that as the executor I stand in her shoes so is it therefore correct to say unless the debts are enforceable against her then they should not be enforceable against her estate?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I can’t give you legal advice as an executor – you can be personally liable in some situations for mistakes you make. This is something you should take advice on, you can charge the cost of the advice to the estate.
Reginald says
Hi Sara, I hope you may be able to answer my queries. I have been in dialogue for the last 6 months or so with Cabot about a HSBC Overdraft debt they had purchased. Last week I wrote them basically saying prove I owe this money or go away. Today they have written to me showing that I was making payments as part of a DMP up until 2018 and also a copy of my passport for when I opened the account, but they have said that they cannot produce the CCA. The reason I stopped paying in 2018 is because I wrote to HSBC complaining about being mis-sold packaged bank account fees and HSBC refunded me about £2,500, but they didn’t settle the outstanding balance I had out of that money for some reason. The debt is not on my credit report, but in April this year I cleared all of my debts and I am now out of my DMP and the last thing I want is Cabot adding something bad on there. Cabot have confirmed to me that they won’t add anything in writing. I feel like HSBC are a bit at fault here as well.
Cabot have already offered me a 50% discount which suggests that they don’t have a leg to stand on without the CCA, but I’ve been reading and overdrafts are a bit different? Also as the debt has had payments to it within the last 6 years its not statute barred yet.
I just want to know is what they have provided enough to go to court and force me to pay?
Thanks in advance
Sara (Debt Camel) says
What is the balance now?
Can you say something about the history of this account with HSBC – how long ago was it opened?
did they increase your credit limit too high? at a point when your finances were already poor?
were you ever constantly in your overdraft for a long period, even when you were paid you never got back into the black?
Being offered a 50% discount doesn’t mean Cabot have a weak case, they probably paid less than 10p in the pound for the debt so if they get you to settle at 50p that’s a nice profit for them.
Reginald says
Cabot want £926.51 from me, but have offered me a 50% discount on this figure. The account was opened in February 2007. Yes I was always in my overdraft and I had a serious gambling problem and they would have seen all of the transactions going through my account. As well as multiple loans and payday loans etc.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
so how large was your credit limit? did HSBC increase it?
was the £2500 refund larger than the balance on your account at that time? did you just gamble the money away?
As the article above says, CCAs are not relevant for overdraft debts.
Reginald says
It was about £1,500 and yes HSBC did increase it at least once. The account was part of my DMP because they had to close it as the overdraft was a form of credit. Yes the £2,500 was larger than the balance and it came in the form of a cheque which I paid into another account. No because I was in a DMP and stopped gambling at this point.
It sounds like I am going to have to pay Cabot, but I can complain about HSBC as the last activity on the account was 2018 in the form of payments from my DMP?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So you probably do need to either make an arrangement with Cabot to pay or settle it if you can afford to.
You may have an affordability complaint to HSBC. Any refund would be reduced by the £2500 you have already had. But you may have paid a lot more than that in overdraft charges over the years? how long a period was this? Was there ever a prolonged times (years not months) when you were constantly in yoru overdraft, not getting into the black when you were paid?
Kasha says
Evening
I have a TMB mtg taken out late 2008& am up to date with payments. I have a copy of the CCA agreement that was sent to me the day after the mortgage was drawn down which is obviously a breach to their T&Cs
Any advice as would like to sell the property but in negative equity?
Thanks in advance
Sara (Debt Camel) says
How much negative equity?
What is the rest of your financial situation like, do you have other problem debts or arrears on important bills?
Kasha says
Thanks for coming back to me. Good question and thankfully Everything else is ok, just this.
It’s the paperwork that has got me thinking about my position- should I try to work something out with them or report to regulators?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
and how large is the negative equity?
The paperwork – were you aware of the terms of the mortgage before you took it out? I’m not clear if you are saying you should not have been sold this and it wasnt explained to you properly or just that the copy of the CCA arrived late.
Matt says
Hi just a quick question. What is the difference between pre and post 2007 agreements please?
I have a mixture!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Not much! There is a myth around that a creditor has to produce the original signed agreement if it was pre 2007, but this isn’t right – a reconstituted “true copy” is fine.
I wouldn’t worry about this but just get on with asking for the CCA whether the account was opened in 2006 or 2008…
Ashley says
Hi Sara
You’ve helped me before in the past which i am extremely grateful for.
I am looking at applying for a mortgage in 6 or so moths time and am just re-assessing my finances. My finances are now in good shape with thanks to your help, i do however have 3 debts remaining that are ‘unenforceable’. I haven’t made payment for almost 2 years now so thought i would maybe see if they would take a low settlement offer to get the debts marked as satisfied on my credit report.
I messaged link financial offering them 10% but received no reply.
PRA group replied regarding my remaining two debts saying 10% was too low and the lowest they could accept at this time was 60% of the total for both debts. I replied to this saying this was too high for a debt that was ‘unenforceable’. They responded by saying only one was and the other wasn’t, however i have never received any paperwork through since their letter stating it was unenforceable. They said they sent it via email but im positive I’ve never received this. I have requested that they resend these document and any proof that it was ever sent in the first place.
Will this mean i have had negative markers put on my credit report other than the original default? Also in your opinion, is it worth settling these debts as satisfied before applying for a mortgage?
Thanks for your time and help,
Ashley
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So you have 3 debts showing as defaulted on your credit record? What are the default dates?
Ashley says
January 2018- Link Financial, unenforceable.
March 2018- PRA Group, unenforceable.
June 2018- PRA Group, unenforceable but currently disputing.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
do those default dates look right to you, or did you default on the debts much earlier?
Ashley says
The dates match the original creditors default dates and seem right to me yeah
The debt amounts are
Link Financial- £1458.29
PRA Group- £2301.90
PRA Group- £1268.55
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So to answer your questions:
“Will this mean I have had negative markers put on my credit report other than the original default? “
No, that isn’t possible after a default.
“Also in your opinion, is it worth settling these debts as satisfied before applying for a mortgage?”
Yes. Unless you do you will find it hard to get a mortgage at a reasonable interest rate.
And the debts need to really be settled at least a year before a mortgage application. Many lenders won’t be happy with 6 months. I suggest you talk to a mortgage broker to confirm this.
That was why I was asking if the defaults should have been earlier. If you could have got them all pushed back to 2016, then they would all be dropping off your credit record next year anyway, wothout you having to settle them.
Of course PRA may accept less than 60% – but they aren’t going to accept a low offer. they know many people want the debts marked as satisfied and whether the debt is enforceable or not really isn’t relevant. as they know some people will just pay up.
Hannah says
Hi sorry if this has been asked before but…I defaulted on a Barclay debt in 2016, which was bought out by Link. I was paying £1 contribution to the debt but then requested a copy of the CCA and after 3 months I stopped paying. They wrote to me to say they couldn’t find the agreement, but then about another month later they found it.
However, the CCA they sent me does not have the address I was living at in 2007 when I took out the original agreement, instead it had the address I didn’t move in to until 2011. I want to make a reasonable full and final settlement offer and I wondered if I can use this as leverage as it’s not a “True copy”, or whether I need to inform them it’s incorrect and await another confirmation that they can’t find it or wait for them to produce the original?
I’m just buying my first home with a specialist mortgage company that deal with Poor credit history but for peace of mind I want to ensure my asset is secure and that the debt can be officially settled. I have offered Link F&F’s over the last 2 years (30%, 40% and 50%) but they’ve declined each time.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
the true copy of your CCA should have the correct address on it. I suggest you talk to National Debtline on 0808 808 4000.
But even if Link admit the CCA is not correct and the debt is not enforceable, you cannot make them agree to settle the debt. If they think you need a mortgage they may well refuse to accept a 50% offer. They are calling your bluff.
GW says
I am no expert unlike Sara, but “faking” a CCA is likely to be a potentially serious criminal offence —- “attempting to obtain financial advantage by fraud” Or similar – I suggest you point this out to them and then try a 30% or less offer pointing out their dishonesty……!
TW says
I’m no expert either but am going through the process with various debt companies.
PRA group sent me a reconstituted agreement that I was doubtful of. After checking with the legal beagles forum I challenged them on it and they admitted that it had current terms rather than being a copy of my agreement. They took the full 8 weeks complaint procedure to confirm this.
They have now marked the debt as unenforceable until they get the original but I was angry that they had in my opinion “faked” an agreement however they didn’t uphold my complaint as “by providing a current agreement they have fulfilled their obligations. “
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The Legal Beagles forum is an excellent site for people who are unsure if what they have been sent is correct.
Mr JP says
Hi Sara,
What is the significance of April 2007 when it comes to whether a missing signed credit card agreement makes the debt unenforceable? Why is this particular date (over any other specific date) important if the reliance is simply on the signed paperwork going astray? Did some legislation come into play effective April 2007 that changed the situation on this matter?
Reason I ask is that if the main hope is that the signed agreement has gone astray, then why does it matter so much whether the agreement was from April 2009 or April 2003? Would a signed agreement from April 2009 that has gone astray also be unenforceable or would it actually be enforceable because it came after April 2007?
Thanks very much.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It is a minor technical factor if a case ever comes to court. It isn’t that important which is why I don’t mention it in the article. It should not stop you asking for a CCA whatever the date of the account if the debt has been sold to a debt collector.
Mr JP says
Got you. Thanks very much Sara.
Matt says
Hi Sara and everyone.
An update and I am open to advice.
5 credit card debts,, 4 sold on 1 managed by a DCA, i was paying very small payments as thats all a could afford.
1 bank overdraft managed by a DCA , still paying small payments.
Asked for CCA on the credit cards, all suspended collections but then 1, LINK have found a CCA. After posting the agreement on another site that has some legal types, they have advised me thats unenforceable and they advised to take them on and still stop paying, but I find that scary.
Also been advised to send a CCA for the overdraft too but I havent done that yet.
Total debt 35K
My mum has said she could fund small full and final settlements to them all if I could deal with them, one of them earlier this year offered me a 80% reduction.
Has anyone any success and or horror stories?
What advice would you give?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So 4 of the credit cards have said they can’t produce the CCA? How long has it been since you asked for it?
Matt says
Hi, yes 4 have either said there is no CCA or still trying to find it. They had the CCA at the beginning of September
I domt think I have the bottle to take on Link who say the CCA is correct even tho others say it ismt
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The 4 that can’t find it, are the debts still on your credit record and if they are, are they marked as defaulted?
Matt says
Hi Sara , all are defaulted. I have been paying small token payments for years. One has now dropped off my file , the other three within the next 6 months.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Then I don’t see any reason to offer any of them a settlement at all.
I don’t know what may be wrong with the Link CCA – which forum were you talking on?
You can ask for the CCA for the overdraft but what are you going to do when they say they don’t have to produce it?
TD says
Can I ask what they found or didn’t find in the link cca that makes them think that is not enforceable. I have also asked link and they have sent me an agreement. What site did you post it on if you don’t mind me asking.
Matt says
Hi Sara,
The reason for the settlement is my mum wants to know they have all gone forever with no chance of them finding it and coming back.
The forum was all about debt, I have asked what they consider makes it unenforceable.
Im not sure what to do about the overdraft one, opinions vary, do you think thats a waste of time then?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The reason for the settlement is my mum wants to know they have all gone forever with no chance of them finding it and coming back.
OK but (a) you can’t make them accept a low offer even if you think it is unreasonable to refuse it and (b) settle the other debts first – Link & the overdraft. Until those are gone, you don’t know how much you can offer. I suggest you stop paying them now and wait a couple of months. After that you will be surer that they won’t find it and the creditor will realise you are serious about not carrying on paying them.
I have asked what they consider makes it unenforceable.
good question.
You could also ask on the legal Beagles forum.
Im not sure what to do about the overdraft one, opinions vary,
where are they saying this is a good idea? A reference to a single court case with no link to a judgment is not helpful – that judgment may have been based on a lot of other facts in that case.
Matt says
Do you think the Link and overdraft (barclays managed by Arvato) may take a settlement?
Also I find the legalbeagles site really hard to navigate but I will give it a go
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I can’t really guess. It will depend on your current situation and how much you are paying a month.
Matt says
Hi again, I pay £7 a month on a £11k debt for the Link one
And pro rata figures for the others
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok and do you have an income & expenditure statement that shows that is all you can afford?
Matt says
Hi
Yes thats how I managed it myself over the years, once a year sent a form in to show income etc and never had a problem
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok so if you make a F&F offer, include a new I&E with it.
Matt says
Great, good advice I will do that.
Karen says
Good Morning. I had an old JD Williams account that defaulted and Cabot were chasing the debt. During the time it was showing on my Credit report, I made a full and final settlement offer, but I never heard anything from that. The day it dropped off my credit report an agent was knocking on my door. I missed him as I was dog sitting for a friend, but saw him leaving my front door as I walked up the road. I was so incensed I wrote asking for the CCA. They wrote back and said it could not be found and, as such, this debt was unenforceable. Thats great, but in the last 12 months since I am receiving a letter or email chasing this debt around every 3 weeks. At first the letters said this debt was unenforceable, but the email I received today makes no mention of this, and is just chasing me for the debt and gives me ways to contact them to pay. How can I go about emailing them telling me they are harrassing me and the fact they have stopped mentioning this is unenforceable. Help!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Go back to Cabot by email saying:
– you confirmed in 2020 [or whenever] that you could not produce a copy of the CCA agreement for this debt and that it is unenforceable.
– since then I have been receiving letters and emails saying asking me to contact you about making a repayment arrangement. At first these stated that the debt was unenforceable but the email I received today did not mention this.
– this is a breach of CONC 13. 1.6(4) which says that “The firm should, in any request for payment or communication relating to a payment (other than a statement issued in accordance with the CCA or regulations made under it which does not constitute or contain a request for payment) in such cases, make clear to the customer that although the debt remains outstanding it is unenforceable.”
– I will not be making any payments to this unenforceable debt. I understand that you have the right to ask for a repayment but I consider the volume of communications I am getting is excessive.
– I would like to request that all future communications are by letter and that they acknowledge that the debt is unenforceable.
– Say if they do not agree to this you will be sending a complaint to the Financial Ombudsman as it is unfair to continue to pester a customer who has made it clear they will not be paying an unenforceable debt.
From this point on, keep a record of the communications you receive.
Karen says
Thank you so much Sara
I have just emailed them and put it as a complaint. Will wait to see what they come back with
Richard says
Hi, thought I’d let you know about my own CCA experience. Recently I wrote to Lowell financial to ask for the CCA for an old Creation debt.
They wrote back to acknowledge the request and said they would be in touch again. So far, so standard.
A couple of weeks later, I received another letter to confirm that the CCA could not be located and as the debt was unenforceable they were closing the account and removing the details from my credit file. A few days later I noticed on Experian that Lowell had gone.
Remarkable! I wasn’t expecting that at all but very happy that what was a £3,500 debt left to pay has suddenly disappeared into thin air!!
Jules says
Amazing and congratulations! I am currently in the process of requesting CCAs for 3 historic outstanding debts that have been hanging over me for the last 14 years; one has come back unenforceable so fingers crossed I have the same result as you Richard. This website is an absolute find – huge huge thanks to Sara for all her information and non judgemental advice – you have certainly helped me to see a chink of light at the end of a very long dark tunnel – thank you X
HQ247 says
Hi Sara,
I received correspondence from Halifax re a loan I had with them. (Was making a small payment every month to Link via Wescott. Halifax advised that they were unable to service the loan on their IT platform and made a decision to close it and settle same on my behalf. I have just received correspondence from Link stating that the debt had been returned to them from Wescott and asking me to set up an affordable payment plan. As the loan is now settled on my behalf should I ignore the Link correspondence or email them with a copy of the letter from Halifax? Tia.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Are you sure the link debt is the same debt as the Halifax debt?
Have you looked at your credit record – who does it show as the creditor for this loan – Halifax or Link?
How old is this loan and when did you first miss payments to it?
Is the balance large?
HQ247 says
Yes, it’s the same debt (same loan reference no). It’s not on my credit report anymore as well past 6 years since I first defaulted. It’s at least 12 years old. Balance is around £3k.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok, I see from previous comments that you asked link for a copy of the CCA and they sent something you thought was pretty illegible.
I don’t think sending Link a copy of the Halifax letter is going to be useful. It sounds like an error on the Halifax system. You could send Halifax not a CCA request but a Subject Access request for all the information they have about this loan and see what if that throws up anything useful.
TD says
Hi Sara
Idem have written to us asking what our outstanding balances are to other creditors. Do we have to provide them with this information? They have failed to provide the cca for the account in question. But we do have another account with them that they have found the cca.
Just wondering where we stand and what our response should be in both situations?
Many Thanks
TD
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If this is in a letter referring to the account they have said they cannot produce the CCA for, then you can simply reply that as the debt is unenforceable you will not be making any further payments to it.
But generally a debt collector can ask for this sort of information – you don’t have to supply it but it’s usually best to, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/debt-collector-income-expenditure/
Max says
@TD
I’ve not paid Idem a penny for several months after reading on another excellent debt forum (AAD) they are not FCA authorised. They can stomp their feet as much as they like, but can’t take legal action, though they might lodge a claim to try and win by default.
It’s only a small debt, but I refuse to pay anything our of principle even though CCA has – unfortunately – been found. Idem recently brought in another DCA to “manage” it and first thing they did was offer a 25% discount.
I’d probably settle at an 80% discount just for peace of mind as they might sell it to someone who is FCA authorised. They’re one of eight creditors who I payed through StepChange every month for nearly 10 years, but since CCA’ing them all this time last year, have not paid a penny at all.
The ones who don’t have the CCA (all debts defaulted 13 years ago) have been offering me 50-75% off, but I’m ignoring anything below 80%. I actually quite enjoy receiving their correspondence these days as their hollow threats and red ink brighten up my mornings, whereas a few years ago such mail would have ruined my week.
Important to remember the CCA is just one of a host of documents they need to show a judge to win a CCJ, just one single missing/inaccurate default notice, letter of assignment, can derail their plan of attack and see the case thrown out and costs awarded to you.
Max
Sara (Debt Camel) says
just one single missing/inaccurate default notice, letter of assignment, can derail their plan of attack and see the case thrown out and costs awarded to you.
Things aren’t always that easy. And many people do not want to have to defend a case in court.
Beanie says
Idem have just sent me a copy of a CCA from mid 90s! I want rid of this though and have offered 25% as full and final settlement. Is this realistic? I have included an I and E and details of what else I owe to be helpful.
TD says
Thanks for that Max. I have two accounts with idem one of which (although I am paying it)is in dispute as many years ago a I wrote a promotional cheque out but it went missing between the original lender (Lloyds) and Barclays. I had to get a solicitor involved and we finally got to the bottom of it. Lloyds sent a letter saying that the account would be amended but it never was corrected on my statements. I have all the paperwork for this and I’m adamant that I will never pay the disputed amount back without a fight. Unfortunately this is the account they have found the cca for!! Idem once looked into it but eventually gave up and said it was down to me to contact the original lender!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So you think you can just fight that one in court?
TD says
I’m really not sure what I will do but I do have all the paperwork (photo copies of the cheque and letters from my solicitor and letters to and from Lloyds and Barclays) and Lloyds did admit it was an error on their part! I’m reluctant to have to pay out for another solicitor but if that’s what it takes then I will as the amount in question is £5,500.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Why didn’t Lloyds put it right, did you complain?
TD says
I don’t know why it was never amended and at the time there was a lot going on and that was just another problem. Also it’s a mind field as to who you contact and it is exhausting having to explain the whole thing over and over again 😔
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I do understand that, nevertheless, it is going to be less exhausting to raise a complaint now ith Lloyds and send it to the Ombudsman if it is rejected rather than try to defend a case in court.
TD says
I don’t know where to start and who to write to.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Idem told you to talk to the orignal lender? And that was Lloyds? Then send a complaint to lloyds
Leah says
Hi Sara,
I wonder if you can help. I have two debts. One a loan of about £10,000 which I took from Lloyds which I defaulted on in 2013 (this has now been sold one to Link Financial with Wescot managing). The other debt is a credit card (£2,500) from Virgin/MBNA -which I don’t think has been sold on and is managed by Idem. At the time Stepchange arranged for me to make voluntary payments of £2 and £1 respectively to each company and I’m been paying that ever since. I am back in work now and the debts/defaults are old and no longer on my credit file. However I still feel like it would be a good item to try and settle both as I do want a mortgage at some point in the future. A relative has offered around £3000 to settle the debts, should I try and do this or continue to pay the £2 and £!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The Virgin debt – does i5 show on your credit record as under Idem or who.
Leah says
Thanks for getting back to me Sara,
So I use Clear Score or Totally Money to view my credit file/score and cannot see Idem or Wescot on either one. I’m sure Clearscore used to display these accounts, but no longer do. However, I don’t recall the MBNA debt listing as i5, it was definitely Idem.
Should I be viewing my credit report elsewhere for a more detailed view?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Credit records show who owns the debt. If you have ever seen it listed with Idem’s name, they own it.
If both debts had default dates added more than 6 years ago, this is why they no longer show on your credit records.
You do need to get these debts settled if you want a mortgage as the mortgage lender will see the tell-tale payments to debt collectors on your bank statements, even though they aren’t on your credit record.
You could make F&F offers to them – explain the money is being offered by a relative if it will let you clear the debts.
Or you could first ask the current debt collectors (not the original lenders) for the CCA agreement for the debts as the article above explains. If it cannot be found, then the debt is unenforceable and you can simply stop paying.
Leah says
Thanks for you guidance Sara.
Just to be clear – if they debts are unenforceable and I not longer pay them, there will be no evidence of them on bank statements so potential mortgage provider cannot see them and should help my chances of obtaining mortgage?
Oh also – do you recommend I contact Link Financial directly about the F&F offer or do it through Wescot who are managing the debt?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Broadly yes. See https://debtcamel.co.uk/mortgage-debts-not-on-credit-record/ which looks at the issue of what mortgage lenders can see in detail.
I would go to Link.
Debi says
Hi Sara,
A few months ago you helped me with some good advice I asked for CCA’s on two debts one came back which has now been settled but the other has not been found and I have letters stating that at the moment it is un enforceable, this is Cabot, about 3 weeks ago they sent me a letter asking to set up a payment plan as I haven’t received a CCA I ignored this now I am getting phone calls from them and they have even rang my mums phone which I picked up at the time I explained to the gentleman on the phone that I had requested a CCA and have been told it is unenforceable I also stated that I would not be talking to anyone until the CCA is found he didn’t seem to know what I was talking about, Do I need to put this in writing to them.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Did you tell Cabot you would not be paying them? They may still ask you to pay, but I suggest you should put it in writing that you do not intend to unless they manage to produce the CCA agreement.
Every letter asking you to set up a payment plan should mention that the debt is unenforceable – did it?
Debi says
Hi Sara yes it’s states that I is unenforceable but the balance is outstanding.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok, that’s fine. If it didn’t, Cabot are breaking the rules. Just reply you won’t be paying while it is unenforceable and keep a record of how many letters or emails they send you.
DW says
I found Cabot to be quite reasonable. After they had confirmed my debts were unenforceable they agreed to accept a 10% full and final settlement.
Tom says
Hi Sara,
can I dispute a credit card debt and ask for a CCA if I’m already paying an arranged payment to Mortimer Clarke? I’ve been sent letter before claim and I rang them up instead of sending it back and never had a chance to dispute it as I was straight away forced to arrange a payment plan.
Can I possibly stop the payments and ask for CCA now to see if the debt is enforceable?
Thank you for you help,
kind regards,
Tom
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Who are Mortimer Clarke collecting on behalf of?
Tom says
Hi Sara,
they are collecting on behalf of Cabot.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Then asking for the CCA may be a good idea.
There is no need to halt your payments to do this – just ask. If they haven’t found the CCA in a couple of months, then you can stop paying.
james burry says
hi please can you help me
1. borrowed in 2007 from welcome finance secured loan £6k
2, lost job in aug 2008 welcome re wrote loan and said i borrowed more??????????? i didn’t but still re-wrote loan even i wasn’t working from then till n ow paid £1 per, month cabot bought the loan from welcome in 2014 saying £16k plus. ignored this agregged £1 ,.
last year asked for SAR and cca to my horror i realized that it was £16k thought only £6k, however in a letter from welcome they say ive paid back £7k and going through paper work found manny errors from welcome from the re write falsing my income when i wasn’t working, anyway.
just found out that cabot didn’t secure it against my property not on any credit files and no ccjs .
as they cant provide cca and cabot have said unforcable where do i stand.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
didn’t we cover this yesterday? https://debtcamel.co.uk/settlements-old-debts-cca/comment-page-3/#comment-463588
Lou says
Hi Sara, in May 2021 I requested CCAs on 2 debts owned by the same DCA. I received the standard acknowledgement letter for both. In October I received another letter about one of the debts, confirming it is unenforceable and offering me a “substantial” discount. I know you said it is rare for a CCA to show up after a few months, however both accounts were opened online in 2017, defaulted 2019, sold to current creditor in 2020. I worry that because they are fairly recent the CCA will be found eventually so I should make low offers to clear them. What do you think? I can afford up to 20% and I may also want to apply for a mortgage in the next 5 years. I have 2 other problem debts (overdrafts) which I can afford to settle in full on top of the 20%. Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
In October I received another letter about one of the debts, confirming it is unenforceable
Did they say that they cannot get the CCA agreement for the debt so it is unenforceable? or did they say that they have not yet been able to get this so at the moment it is unenforceable? The wording matters…
So they produced the CCA agreement for the other debt?
Are these both marked as defaulted on your credit record?
Lou says
“[the original creditor] have confirmed that they are currently unable to provide this documentation…your account will remain on hold until it becomes available”
No, they haven’t produced the CCA for the other debt.
Both are marked as defaulted.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you ask them to confirm the other debt is also unenforceable. You don’t want to start negotiating with a creditor until you know the status of both debts.
Lou says
Okay, will do. Thanks!
Do you think the other one (the one they wrote to me about in Oct) is unlikely to become enforceable?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
My inclination here is always to stop paying them and wait for a few months. If the CCA pops up, you can start again. If it doesn’t, after 6 months is pretty unlikely to ever surface!
Lou says
Okay. Thanks very much for the advice!