The Consumer Credit Act (CCA) gives you the right to be sent a copy of your credit agreement and a statement of your account for most loans, credit cards, catalogues, store cards and Hire Purchase agreements.
CCA agreements are important! If a creditor can’t find it then:
- you can’t get a CCJ for the debt; and
- you may decide to stop paying the debt.
But the right to ask for the CCA agreement doesn’t apply to:
- debts where there already is a CCJ;
- overdrafts,
- many household bills or tax debts;
- pre 2008 loans for more than £25,000;
- mortgages.
Sometimes asking for a CCA agreement is a good idea, but not always.
It shouldn’t normally be your first thought if you are having trouble paying a debt to the lender.
Asking for the CCA normally only works if your debt has been sold to a debt purchaser – unless the debt is very old.
Contents
How to ask for your CCA agreement
There is a template letter to ask for your credit agreement in this National Debtline factsheet. That factsheet also has a lot of information about CCA agreements and if you have any problems with one, talk to National Debtline.
This is not the same as templates asking for a copy of your personal information or making a Subject Access Request. If you want to find out if the debt is enforceable, use the specific CCA agreement wording.
Some points to be careful about:
- ask the current creditor for the CCA agreement, not the original creditor;
- you have to send a cheque or a postal order for £1;
- send the letter recorded delivery, keep a copy of it and the postage receipt.
Also read the rest of this article first! You need to know what you will do if the lender sends you the agreement and what if the lender doesn’t.
What happens if they don’t send the CCA agreement?
If you don’t get a copy of your CCA agreement within 12 working days of asking, the creditor can’t enforce the debt in court until they do send it to you.
If the creditor can’t easily find the CCA agreement they may send you an acknowledgement of your request. Something like the following is typical:
we acknowledge the 12 day time limit to provide this information but as we have to request the details from the original lender we anticipate that we will not be able to provide this within 12 days but hope that within 40 days we will have retrieved the information to comply with your request.
A 40 day period is often mentioned but doesn’t have any legal standing.
It’s very common for it to take more than 12 days to find the CCA. Don’t get excited because the 12 days has passed, it means nothing in practice.
I suggest waiting two or three months before you decide they can’t find the agreement and decide to stop paying them.
“Legal but not enforceable”
The letter from the creditor saying they haven’t found it yet should be clear that the debt is no longer enforceable but it still legally exists.
The creditor can ask you to pay the debt but, if you don’t, the creditor can’t do anything. They can’t hassle you to pay it. A polite letter every 6 months or a year is fine – frequent letters, texts or phone calls aren’t. This isn’t usually a problem in practice.
When a debt is unenforceable, that should be mentioned in any letters asking for payment. Here is what I suggested to a reader who was getting letters that left off this important fact: “Debt collector can’t prove it’s my debt but wants payment”
Here are some more implications of the debt being legal but not enforceable:
- if you claim a PPI refund, this may be set off against the balance you still owe.
- the debt can still be sold to another debt collector. Make sure you keep all the CCA agreement letters or emails so you can just tell the new creditor you asked for the CCA agreement on dd/mm/yy and you won’t be paying anything to the debt until it is produced.
- you may be able to leave the debt out of an application for a Debt Relief Order so it won’t count towards the maximum debt limit. Talk to your DRO adviser about this.
- See below for the effect on your credit record.
“So I can just stop paying?”
If your reason for asking for the CCA was hoping that you could stop paying the debt, then you could stop after 12 working days.
But in practice many CCA agreements are produced in the next few weeks. So, unless you can’t afford the monthly payments, I usually suggest not stopping it immediately. Leave it a couple of months.
If the debt is in a DMP you will have to tell the DMP firm to stop paying it. Dent them the letter from the creditor saying they can’t locate the agreement.
You may find the idea of not paying scary. If you do, talk to National Debtline about this debt and the rest of your financial situation. It does help, being able to talk to a friendly expert!
I would allow the debt collector two or three months before deciding that they aren’t going to be able to find it.
There is a small chance that the CCA agreement could be found later. This seems to be rare – if the debt collector hasn’t found it in the first few months the chances of it turning up later are very low.
“The creditor hasn’t said it is unenforceable”
Occasionally a creditor will tell you they cant produce it but you are still legally liable for the debt which is true, but irrelevant – if they cannot produce the CCA agreement the debt is unenforceable in court.
Sometimes the creditor goes into a lot of detail about how you have been paying so the debt isn’t statute barred. Also true but again irrelevant. You weren’t suggesting the debt was statute barred.
In this sort of situation, tell the creditor that you are not disputing whether you are liable for the debt or whether it is statute barred, but you would like the creditor to confirm that the debt is currently unenforceable as they have produced the CCA.
If the creditor persists with this, make a complaint and then send the complaint to the Financial Ombudsman. Here is the story of a case involving an old HSBC debt, where HSBC had to pay compensation for not admitting the debt was unenforceable.
“What about my credit record?”
Is this debt still showing on your credit record? Check all three credit reference agencies to make sure.
If it isn’t on there, then it will never reappear, whether you pay it in full, in part or just stop paying.
A debt marked as defaulted will drop off 6 years after the default date:
- it will not drop off sooner because the CCA cannot be found;
- the balance will not normally be set to zero because the CCA cannot be found.
When the debt does not have a default date, if you stop paying now, a default will be added and it will then drop off in 6 years. Not good news! Read What should the default date be? and ask the original creditor to add a default date back years ago.
A default will NOT be deleted if the CCA can’t be found. And you shouldn’t want that to happen – it would mean the record would stay on your file for even if you stop paying.
The whole debt will NOT be deleted if the CCA can’t be found. The debt still legally exists, even though it is unenforceable in court, and the creditor is entitled to report your credit history accurately for it.
“Should I offer a low settlement amount?”
Some people decide to offer a low settlement amount. I don’t think this is a good idea. You don’t need to do this! Not paying them anything is a perfectly good response in most cases! It is VERY VERY rare for a debt to turn up later.
A lot of creditors simply reject the low offer, even though you think it is sensible. They know that if they refuse you may decide to give them more. You cannot make a debt collector accept this low offer or complain they are being unfair if they don’t.
If you really want to make a settlement offer, stop paying them for a few months and then make the offer. That shows they can choose between your low offer and nothing.
The only time when you should try to get the debt settled is if it will still be showing on your credit record in a year or two when you want to apply for a mortgage. Then getting the debt marked as satisfied will help your mortgage chance a lot. But if the debt is no longer on your credit record or is dropping off soon, there is no need to do this.
What if they do send the CCA agreement?
How can you tell if it is right?
You have to be sent a “true copy” of the agreement – this doesn’t have to be a photocopy of the original agreement. It must be legible and it must include:
- your name and address when the account was opened;
- the creditor’s name and address when the account was opened;
- the terms and conditions of the account at that time, including the cost of credit (the Annual Percentage Rate), when you have to make payments and your cancellation rights; and
- any other documents that were mentioned in the Terms and Conditions.
It doesn’t have to have your signature on it. Indeed if you opened the account online you may well have signed it “digitally” and there is no document with your physical signature – this is perfectly legal.
If you aren’t sure what you have been sent is correct, you can ask National Debtline about it or you could post about it on the Legal Beagles forum.
This may sound complicated but usually either the creditor admits they can’t find it or what they send you is fine.
What should you do when the CCA agreement is found?
This depends on why you were asking for the CCA agreement.
If the creditor has started a court case (you have been sent a Claim Form) then you may have hoped that the CCA agreement could not be found. But now you have it, that is not a possible defence so you need to think if you have another defence. Talk to National Debtline about your options.
If you were planning on making settlement offers to some debts and were hoping the lack of a CCA agreement could get this one settled very cheaply, that has been ruled out and you need to proceed with a more substantial offer.
If you are fed up with having to pay this old debt for many more years, look at your alternatives. If you just stop paying, you may get taken to court – especially as the creditor now has the CCA agreement ready to hand! If you have more luck with some other debts turning out to be unenforceable, can you now pay more to this one? Or is it time to look at insolvency or other options?
When should you ask for the CCA agreement – and when shouldn’t you?
A lot depends on your exact debts, who the original creditor was, who the debt collector is, and what your other options are for tackling them. So there isn’t a simple checklist here.
How old is the account and has it been sold?
The older an account is, the less likely it is that a CCA agreement will be found. It’s the age of the account that matters, not how old the debt problem is. You may have only defaulted on a catalogue account a couple of years old, but if it was opened in 2010 that’s well worth a try!
For a debt that is still with the original creditor, I wouldn’t bother asking for the CCA agreement unless the debt was VERY old or you are getting letters from solicitors about court action.
If a debt has been sold once it is less likely the current creditor can produce the CCA agreement. And this gets harder the more times the debt is sold on.
Court action and CCJs
If the creditor is seriously threatening court action, always ask for the CCA agreement. It is worth a try!
But when you already have a CCJ for a debt, it is too late to ask for the CCA agreement as the creditor doesn’t have to send it. If you have just found out about the CCJ you need to look at your options for “setting it aside“, not send a request for the CCA agreement.
Contacts about a very old debt you have heard nothing about for years?
If you haven’t been paying a debt for years and you aren’t being hassled by a creditor, you need a good reason to ask for the CCA agreement. It may be better to wait and see if you are contacted and then ask for the CCA.
But when you are contacted about a very old debt, asking for the CCA agreement is a very good idea. you should think first if the debt is statute barred, Talk to National Debtline on 0808 808 4000. They have a template you can send the creditor saying the debt is statute barred. This is simpler than asking for the CCA agreement.
But if the creditor comes back with a reason why it isn’t statute barred, then your next step should be to ask for the CCA agreement.
Hoping to settle debts with a windfall
If you have a windfall – an inheritance say – and you have a lot of debt in a DMP for several years so most of it is with debt collectors, asking for CCA agreements before you make offers is sensible. You don’t need to pay them anything if they cant produce the CCA.
Thinking about bankruptcy, a DRO or an IVA
Where insolvency (DRO, IVA or bankruptcy) looks necessary, it can be a waste of time asking for CCA agreements, unless not paying those debts would make the rest manageable.
Contacted about a debt which not yours
If a debt collector says you owe money but you don’t recognise the debt, you should send them a Prove It! letter saying you dispute the debt. Here the CCA is only part of the picture. You may get sent a copy of the CCA in answer to this – if the name and address on the agreement are yours and you did live at that property at that point, it is good evidence.
But keep focussed on the fact that what matters is proving who the borrower is.
Here is a case “Debt collector can’t prove it’s my debt but wants payment” where a debt collector admitted the debt was unenforceable as the CCA couldn’t be found but wrongly still asked for payment.
Summary
In summary, asking for the CCA agreement is an uncertain process that can take months. If you have a lot of debts, make sure you are looking at the bigger picture, as well as thinking about the individual debts.
Can you really offer just £1 to a debt?
Could a Debt Relief order help you?
When to ask for a debt write off
warwick65 says
Hi Sara
Love the article but can I just add something I think people misunderstand.
If no agreement (CCA) can be found a creditor can not gain a CCJ- well this is true but it doesn’t stop them trying in the hope you do not defend the claim. The cardinal rule is, unless you are going to pay up ( and often even then as it may get you better terms) start the process of defending the claim. The vast majority of judgements are won on a default basis – where the defendant i.e you or me , either fail to acknowledge the service of the claim or fail to enter a defence within the prescribed time.
If in doubt visit one of the many forums on the internet such as all about debt or visit your CAB or contact National Debt line
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It seems very rare these days that a creditor starts a claim when they have previously been asked for a CCA and said they cannot find it. Send in a written complaint immediately and send to the Ombudsman after 8 weeks if they do.
But as you say, if a claim is started it needs to be defended!
Adrian says
Ok, so I have a debt, from 2005, car finance, that over time has gone far and above the original debt, due to the ineptitude of the original lender and bare faced lies.
It’s been sold on twice, iirc, so would it be worth me contacting them and asking for the cca in the hope of finally saying goodbye to this annoying debt? It’s only £30 a month, but the original debt was £1500 and by the time this final company got the debt, it was at £3k, and I had already been paying.
Ade
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Then it sounds worth asking the current debt collector for the CCA agreement Use the template lined to in the article above. I assume the debt is no longer showing on your credit record.
Adrian says
No, there has never been anything on my credit report, even when I took it out, as far as I’m aware
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok, well doing this should NOT cause the debt to appear there.
Come back and say how you get on!
Dawn says
Hi Sara,
We have several loans and credit card debts which due to defaulting on in 2010 are now no longer on our credit report. Since then we have only been paying token payments of £1. Due to a change in circumstances we are selling the house. Would it be worth asking for the CCA Agreement so we can establish who we need to pay off with the proceeds of the sale. It would be good to have some money left from the sale, but as it stands we are likely to break even, but being debt free after all these years will be amazing in itself. Thank you
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Asking for the CCAs sounds like a very good move for you!
Andy S says
“if you apply for a Debt Relief Order, the £20,000 limit of your total debts will have to include this debt.”
Are you sure about this Sara? The DRO intermediary guidance notes (v16) state that “Debts barred by limitation or otherwise unenforceable should not be included in the application.” This would correspond with my reading of the Insolvency Rules, as if a debt is unenforceable due to no agreement, it is not “payable at some certain future time” (i.e. whether or not it is payable is contingent on the creditor being able to locate the agreement).
As a matter of good practice I would schedule a debt like this in a DRO just to be on the safe side, in case the agreement is subsequently found, but where it is the difference between a client getting a DRO and not (because the unenforceable debt takes them over the £20,000 limit), I believe it would be okay to exclude it – though there is a risk that the DRO could be revoked if the debt is later found to be enforceable, which the client of course needs to be aware of.
(Caveat: I haven’t seen the full version of the new Insolvency Service guidance for intermediaries, which is due to be published soon, so there could be some change to the guidance on this issue that I’m not aware of).
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Thanks Andy – I have changed the above article and linked to another article on when you can leave a debt out of a DRO, where I already had a section on statute barred debt,
Laura says
Hi Sara
I have been chased for a gym membership with David lloyd and it has been sold on to arc who I believe are not the best operators , can I request a cca against a gym membership .
Thanks
Laura
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It is possible that a gym membership involves a CCA loan but it isn’t normal. Do you have your membership papers? If not, you can ask David Lloyd for a copy of all your personal information see https://www.davidlloyd.co.uk/policy/privacy-policy.
Jane says
I received a “remediation of account” letter from Arrow Global for an old debt that I have been paying only token amounts on for about 9 years. The letter states that they failed to comply with the Consumer Credit Act by not sending me updates on my account since 2011. They then enclose the belated account updates backdated in an attempt to belatedly comply.
If they have not complied with the CCA for an extended period , does this mean that the debt becomes unenforceable? (I have effectively been acknowledging the debt by paying token amounts and occasionally corresponding with them).
They claim “this remediation exercise in no way effects your obligation to repay the balance”.
Also it worth asking for the CCA agreement (as the debt is old and has been sold on multiple times) ?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It sounds as though the updates Arrow failed to send are Notices of Sums In Arrears (NOSIA). During the time a creditor fails to send these, they cannot enforce the debt in court, but Arrow have now corrected (“remediated”) this error and the debt is again enforceable.
The creditor can also not charge interest while NOSIA ststaments are not being sent. This cannot be backdated by sending the missing statements, but Arrow probably aren’t changing interest on this debt, so that won’t help you.
Yes it is worth asking for a CCA agreement. The only risk is that if they do produce it they may then start court action, but if token payments are all you can afford that’s unlikely.
Hjl says
Do you have any detailed info on the situation when a creditor hasn’t provided NOISA in line with the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (updated 2006). Natwest wrote to me last year stating they hadn’t complied between 06/06/2009 and 28/11/2014, as a result they refunded overpaid interest of just over 4k. This relates to a debt that they obtained a CCJ (mentioned in my earlier comments today about requesting CCA’s) and finally a charging order for with action commencing on 06/04/2010 with the final charging order being made on 18/01/2013. As far as I can ascertain, not meeting the NOISA requirements means they were actually unable to enforce the debt during the time that were actually taking the CCJ action against me. I’m really looking to see if there is anything I can do about this, perhaps even make the charging order invalid and entitle me to a refund of all the legal costs they added to my debt during this time so any links/ info you might have would be really helpful? P.S they haven’t provided me with any Statements of account or NOISA since the 28/11/2014 either and even when I requested these, I wasn’t sent them so have no idea what my ongoing balance of this debt is.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you talk to National Debtline about this – 0808 808 4000.
Louisa says
Hi Just wondering if there is any point of asking for a CCA agreement from 2015, from what i read most have had credit contracts from over six years ago and debt collectors have not had the paperwork. i had 3 credit card and 2 loans that all defualted with a number of creditors after losing my job. All have been sold of to debt collection agencies and i have been making token payments to all now and again . However i am stressed out a the though of a ccj being applied , which a couple of the DCA have said if i dont start paying more .
Any help will be greatful recived
Thanks
Louisa
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Were your accounts opened in 2015? or was that when they defaulted?
Can you afford to make larger payments to these debts now? If you can’t, have you sent the debt collector Income &expenditure sheets and proof of your benefits to show this? It is rare for a debt collector to go for a CCJ if you are making regular payments, however small, unless they think you could pay more or you have a house with equity?
Louisa says
Hi Sara
Thanks for getting back to me , yeah all the accounts were open in 2015 and defaulted at the start of 2016 . I can just afford a few pounds , I have not got around to sending in income, I will do that this week . I have seen a form to use . So do you think there will be a chance of the paperwork not being issued correctly.
Thanks
Louisa
Sara (Debt Camel) says
There is a chance but it’s not as good because the problems are so recent. If you try this, can you come back and say how many worked and which debts? That would really help other people reading this.
BUT with 5 problem debts and almost no spare income, it’s not going to be a big enough improvement if a couple of them turn out to be unenforceable, is it? I think it might be better to talk to a debt adviser about your options now – that could include a DRO (see https://debtcamel.co.uk/debt-options/dro/) rather than spend a few months making these requests and having the worry about CCJs.
Louisa says
Hi Sara
I am going to still send the letters next week and yeah I will update you when I hear back . I will also contact stepchange and talk them about my options . I have also just completed and incoming and outgoing to send a revised plan to offer all the same.
Thanks again for your help
Louisa
Georgea says
Hi Sara
I have got 3 shop direct accounts from aroubd 6 years ago one was ccj after being passed onto Lowell which is now paid in full. The other was also with Lowell and is paid off in full and the 3rd is with Lowell but I still have a balance of £300. In addition to this I’ve got dollar financial and morses club ( I don’t actually know who they are) all of which I’m paying. I have read your thread and asked Lowell for the consumer credit act agreement for each of these. With my catalogues being 6 years old but still being paid off now would that give me a better chance of getting them refunded? Also if Lowell cannot provide the consumer credit agreement does that mean I can legally stop paying them? Would they have to refund me the money I’ve paid on the accounts that they don’t have the consumer credit agreement for? Would that mean that they had been charging me for a debt that couldn’t legally prove I owed? Thanks for any advice.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Lowell don’t have to produce the CCA agreement for any debt where there has been a CCJ or any debt which has been repaid.
If Lowell can’t produce it for the other catalogue account, yes you can stop paying.
Georgea says
Hi Sara
I asked Lowell for a copy of the cca for my accounts which I am still paying. They emailed me back and said they will get then but can’t give me a time frame. They also told me not to contact the lender directly about the irresponsible/unaffordable lending because they own the debt. They said they will look into any complaint but I don’t see how when it wasn’t them that lent to me in the first place? They also asked me to tell then the details of why the lending was unaffordable/irresponsible.
What do I do? Do i give Lowell this information? Surely they can’t investigate or be held accountable for the debts they buy?
Any advice appreciates thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No , that doesn’t make much sense. Especially if you had previous loans from the same lender, that means you are more likely to win an affordability complaint and refund, but lowell would know nothing about them.
I suggest you ignore this and put in a ffordability complaints to the original lendes.
Sorry I have just seen this bit in your previous post: “In addition to this I’ve got dollar financial and morses club ( I don’t actually know who they are) all of which I’m paying.”
Dollar Financial would have been loans from one of Payday UK, Payday Express, the Money Shop or Ladder loans – do any of those ring a bell?
Morses is a doorstep lender – they took over a brand called Shopacheck?
Georgea says
Hi Sara
Thanks for the reply. I thought it strange too they also said if I did contact the lenders then I had to inform them.
I think I did have loans from the money shop and payday UK back then. But I never had shopacheck. I did have naughton who were a doorstep lender and they went bust so I had no way to pay them I wonder if that’s what the morses club thing is. Would i be complaining to dollar financial then or one of the other 2? The main reason I’ve asked for the cca is to get them off my credit file if Lowell don’t have them and then complain to the lender and ask for my repayments back from Lowell and the interest from the lender plus compo for the aggro of it all. Shall I keep quiet to Lowell and just wait for the cca’s?
Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Yes the naughtons is probably morses.
If a lender can’t produce the CCA agreement you can stop paying them but it will not remove the loans from your credit record. The only ways to get loans removed from your credit record is EITHER to win an affordability complaint OR to get the lender to add a default date that is more than 6 years old. How old are these money shop, payday UK and naughtons loans?
If the CCA can’t be produced, the debt still legally exists but you can’t be taken to court for it. So if there is then a refund for unaffordable lending, it will still be used to repay the remaining balance.
There is no reason to delay asking for refunds from the original lender. The CCA issue is irrelevant to this.
Georgea says
Hi Sara
Thanks for this. These loans are old aswell as the shop direct accounts. They are all from 2008 literally when I was 18 I lived alone and had done since 15. I earned about 8k a year working full time and I got into all of that debt because I genuinley just couldn’t afford to live the catalogue was the only way I could get clothes and bedding and the loans were the only way I could pay my travel to work and pay for food I know I was stupid knowing id never be able to pay it back but at the time of anticipated getting a better job as you always do. I started paying these accounts about 4 years ago through Lowell. I know that loans more than 6 years old aren’t usually claimable but with me still paying them to this day will that help me out at all with the claims against the lenders? The fact it’s taken 11 years and I’m still paying them should surely show how unaffordable they were/Are? I mean the loans were only ever small. £200 or £300 but obviously over time some of them got up to £600/700 which is what I’m now paying?
Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So you have 1 shop direct account and three old loan accounts (money shop, payday UK and naughtons) that you are currently paying with Lowells – is that right?
All opened c 2008?
For all of them there was a long period (? betwen 2008 and 2014?) when you didn’t make any payments?
Are they all showing on your credit record?
Mmoney shop, payday UK and naughtons – did you only have the one loans from each lender that you defaulted on? Or were there earlier loans that you had repaid?
Georgea says
Hi Sara
Yes correct 1 shop direct account left but at the time i had 3 accounts with them. I will have had payday UK and money shop both at the same time and possibly did pay off and then get another loan from them. I also had wage day advance at the same time but they havnt chased me for the money. I also have the morses formerly naughton at the same time as the above other ones. I did make payments to my catalogues at the time but they kept upping my limit and it snowballed and I had 3 shop direct accounts with £600 balances on running concurrently I had to stop paying them when the gas and electric got a warrant to fit pre payment meters in my house as I was so behind on my bills with them. And yea there was a long period I only started paying them when Lowell tracked me down and I diddnt want them to ccj me so I made small repayments aroubd £50 per month in total and they split it between the accounts
Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
OK, let’s sort through your options for all of these debts.
1) there is nothing you can do about the SD accounts where there was a CCJ or which have been repaid. The CCA will not make a difference to these.
2) the SD account you are still paying. There is a good chance the CCA cannot be found and you can stop paying that.
3) you are not going to win an affordability complaint against SD for any of these accounts – they are too old. Sorry, it isn’t a question of how bad a mess you were in, no-one has won a case as old as this and I don’t think there is any chance you will be the first.
4) Naughtons – this is so old that there must be a reasonable chance the CCA cannot be found and you can stop paying.
5) it is possible that the CCA cannot be found for the money shop and payday UK accounts, I can’t guess how likely this is. Can you come back and say? I will be very interested!
6) For Naughtons, money shop and payday UK you don’t sound as though you borrowed a lot from them so the best you could get from an affordability complaint is to get the balance reduced to what you owe. (Thats assuming the CCA agreements are found – if they aren’t then just stop paying and I suggest not bothering with old affordability complaints.) Here, given the situation, it is worth writing to Lowell and saying why the loans were unaffordable and asking them to write off the balance if you have already paid more than you borrowed.
7) which debts are currently showing on your credit record?
Georgea says
Thanks for the advice Sara
I will let you know what happens. I have only asked for the CCA for the accounts that are still active. And if they can’t produce them then I will stop paying. I definitely have repaid the balance I borrowed and the rest I’m paying off now is just all the interest and charges. I’ll let you know what they come back with. As they have said they can’t give me a lead time on obtaining the CCA what do you think a reasonable length of time is to wait? If these can’t be found but they don’t tell me and just string me along what can I do?
Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I normally suggest people wait about 6 weeks.
Georgea says
Hi Sara
I only just saw you asked about my credit file. All of the Lowell accounts show on my credit file and they all show as default even though payment plans are in place. I took you advice and emailed Lowell saying I want the interest to be written off as the balance has now been paid. I’m awaiting their response. I have asked for an initial dead line of 30 days for them to get the CCA to me for the accounts. I will let you know if any of them have been found or not found
I’ve still got my complaints ongoing with 118 money and also provident. I’ve let the loans more than 6 years go from provident so I’ve got 12 in total for them to look into. I worked out I’ve paid over 2k in interest on the provident loans. Provident have been responsive so far. 118 have not and have still been hounding me to borrow more money at a reduced Apr despite that being part of my complaint.
John Bartley says
I have 8 debts with a non secured loans adding up to just over £60,000. Some credit facilities are a bit old others only set up in 2016. Most defaulted about 18 months ago and I have not paid them or contacted them from early 2017 till this week. Most are offering F and F between 50-70% of the debt – most in the higher range. I have just sent them all a CCA letter as per your recommendation. If they are not enforcable (most are with debt collection agencies now) is 5% likely to be accepted. I can probably get a lump sum off my folks to settle all the rest. Assuming creditors can produce the CCA details how low should I go?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
CAn you say how old the accounts are and who the lenders are? Do you have any high cost credit in there, as if you do going for affordability complaints may be a better approach than asking for CCAs.
When you say “with debt collectors” do you mean they have been sold to a debt collector or the original creditor is just using a debt collector?
Do you have a house with equity? Do you have other debts that you are paying? Are you in work? All these factors matter when deciding what to offer in F&F settlement.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
To be clear, these are VERY recent debts. the chance of the CCA not being produced is small. And a F&F offer may need to be quite large to be accepted – that’s why I asked all those questions.
John Bartley says
Sara I appreciate the chances are small – but for £2 or so per letter for the CCA letters worth a try surely? There is about £60k in former credit card and loan debt. One (Sainsburys bank) is back with the original creditor after being with Wescott for a while. Three credit card debts for HSBC, Halifax and Lloyds are with CSL but I think under management. The PRA group appear to have bought a former MBNA debt, there is one with Intrum (a former Virgin CC) but under management, I think. Hoist trading as Robinson Way have bought a Barclaycard Debt and Allied international are managing a Nat West. All bar two (who are open to a F and F) have offered me a partial settlement sum. Most are 70% of the debt but another two have gone for 50% and 60%. I have done an Iand E sheet but not shared yet which shows low disposable income as my new partner is not working and we have four resident children with us and another paying maintenance for. I am in work and there are no other debts and we are servicing our day to day living. There is no house anymore, I had one in my previous relationship but that is now sold with no real equity resulting. I appreciate you looking at this – it’s a mess I am trying to pull myself out of.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I will be very surprised if the CCA can’t be produced for a recent debt which hasn’t been sold. Being with a debt collector doesn’t make this harder, it is only being sold that does.
The obvious solution to your situation is to go bankrupt and save your nice relative 30-40k in settling the debt. That money would be better used with some supporting you over the next few years and the rest forming the basis for a house deposit.
A single payment IVA would be an alternative – you may be able to get one set up for 15k. (You need to refuse an option of a 15k upfront payment and then low contributions for the next 5 years.) But that will have the same bad effect on your credit record for 6 years as bankruptcy will and will have the same effect on trying to get a mortgage in future as having gone bankrupt. It’s not clear that it has any advantages for you over bankruptcy at all.
Or you could set up low payment amounts sit back and wait a couple of years until all the debts have been sold and then try to get low settlement offers accepted.
I think you should talk your full situation through with a debt adviser, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/more-information/where-to-get-help/.
John Bartley says
HIya just to update you, one month on – one organisation (Nat West) represented by Allied Credit has sent a CCA. Another (PRA group) who have bought debt from MBNA (big credit card debt) have written to me saying they have yet to find evidence of an enforceable agreement and that it is unenforceable – for the moment. Obviously, the rest haven’t sent me anything back. Should I offer PRA a token F&F offer and NatWest a credible offer? What do you do with the rest? Just wait?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Yes you can offer PRA a low amount – if they refuse, just ignore the debt.
You can offer NatWest a good F&F or wait until the overall picture is cleared in a few weeks. What your options are and how much you can afford may depend on how many other lenders produce the CCAs.
Rugby widow says
Me and my husband have had a DMP with Payplan since 2007. Our Credit record is now clear and good. We’re in the process of moving house and have arranged a mortgage. We may be in the position to pay some of our debts off but I’d like to request CCA’s as they are such old debts and many won’t be enforceable. Is it best to wait until we’ve actually moved to do this?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You have been offered a mortgage whilst you have an active DMP with Payplan?
Rugby widow says
Yes, I have a mortgage offer, it’s all going through at the moment.
Georgea says
Hi Sara you may remember I had an email from Lowell saying they were taking my email about shop direct morses and dollar financial as a complaint and were putting my account on hold despite me telling them I only wanted the CCA and I was happy to continue paying. They have still taken all my payments 2 days ago despite saying they wouldn’t. I have emailed them again several times asking if they will put on my credit file that I had stopped paying and asked why they took payments if the account is on hold. What do I do about this? They have not replied to me for well over 2 weeks and have still not provided the CCA for any of the accounts that I requested over 3 weeks ago. Any advice? Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You complained that they put your accounts on hold and said you wanted to pay, but now you are complaining that they have taken payments?
As i said before, you need to wait at least 6 weeks before you have any idea if the CCA agreements can be found.
Tony says
Hi Sara,
I would be grateful of your advice, I have sent CCA requests off to 9 of my creditors, all are fairly aged debts, circa 2009, most of which I am still awaiting a response from. (Nearly 3 weeks from the date I sent them)
However, I have received a reconstituted agreement from PRA on behalf of Barclaycard which on the covering letter it states “one of our specialist agents will be in touch within 10 days to discuss a mutually agreeable way of settling the agreement”. Do you (or anyone on this forum) have any idea what I can expect?
I have had responses from capital one simply stating that the debt is enforceable and attached is a copy of the agreement, I do plan on making a partial settlement offer, would you agree that say 50% is worth a shot?
My total debt stands around 8k, I have been in a DMP for nearly 5 years, with another 4 to go.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
First I suggest you go over to the Legal Beagles site and post the CCAs to see if the experts there think they look reasonable.
If they do, then you can either make a payment arrangement or a settlement offer. What is acceptable as a settlement offer depends on your finances. I would be inclined to wait until you have a few more responses before committing yourself to anything.
Anthony Nanson says
Thank you Sara
Hjl says
I can’t decide if I should make the CCA requests. My debts are over 10 years old and went into default in 2008 with £1pm token payment being made to each of them since. I was hoping to settle these debts with income from a new business but then last year I was diagnosed with cancer and underwent major surgery in November 18. I have been unable to work since, have been in and out of hospital and unfortunately it was during this time that Tesco sold my credit card debt to Intrum who then embarked on a regime of daily calls and monthly letters. This has now increased to fortnightly letters with threats of court action. It’s this activity and my financial concerns with being ill that have me trying to find the best way to finally deal with and get rid of these debts.
My other debts are: A Barclays overdraft – sold several times over the years, first Credit Solutions then BCW and since 2017 Arvato – just annual review letters received from them. A Natwest CC – now with both Cabot and Wescot (I have tried to deal with this issue in the past). A very old Yorkshire Bank loan debt from 2003 which is also now with Cabot. I do have a Natwest Loan and 2 overdrafts which were part of a CCJ now off my report but a whole other issue and not relevant to request the CCA for these.
Is it worth me writing to ask for CCA’s or should I just go straight to making low settlement offers. I have tried to settle in the past but my offers haven’t been accepted.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So ignoring the overdrafts and the debts that went to a CCJ, your debts are a Tesco credit card, NatWest credit card and a Yorkshire bank loan? I think it is definitely worth asking for the CCA agreements for all those.
Thor overdrafts and possibly the CCJ debt – you could consider asking for a write off of the debts as they are so old given your health situation. You will need to supply details of your health problems, eg letters from hospital with diagnosis, appointments for surgery, chemo/radio etc. See https://debtcamel.co.uk/debt-options/less-common/write-off/ and as that says you may want to ask your local Citizens Advice for help with these letters.
If the creditors produce the CCA agreements, move on to ask them for w write off because of your health.
jay says
Hi, im looking for suggestions on my Lowell debts.
One is a former Lloyds credit card, the other a former Halifax credit card. (started pre 2007)
Both debts not on my credit file as defaults were over 6 years ago.
Approx 2 years to run on current payment amounts.
I requested copies of the CCA agreements on 7 February.
Lowell responded on 18 February to say, acknowledged the request, would try to provide in 12 days if not would update me in 40 days. Accounts put on hold in the meantime.
Lowell wrote again on 27 March to say, still not received them from original lenders but they are still waiting responses. Accounts remain on hold.
I called them today 8 April, and asked for update. They still not received, no timeline to accept they cant provide them, but the account remains on hold. Would not accept any form of discounted settlement on the accounts.
What should i do? tell CCS to stop paying? or how long should i give them?
TIA
Sara (Debt Camel) says
2 months is long enough.
“tell CCS to stop paying?” is this StepChange? If it is, then yes, i suggest you tell StepCahnge that after 2 months Lowell have been unable to produce the CCA agreement so you would like the debts removed from your DMP.
Also write to Lowell and say you have done this. You could offer a very low amount now to settle the debts or just say you ain’t paying until they produce the correct paperwork.
Jay says
Sorry yes I mean stepchange.
“You could offer a very low amount now to settle the debts or just say you ain’t paying until they produce the correct paperwork”
Is it sensible to do both in a letter? i.e As you have not produced the debt is enforceable, as a gesture of goodwill i offer a settlement payment of 5% of the balance in order to bring the accounts to a close. If you do not accept this offer, I will cease further payments until you are able to provide me with the requested documentation?
Hjl says
Yes thats right, Tesco CC, Natwest CC and Yorkshire Bank loan, i’ll make requesting the CCA for those the priority then! Am I right in thinking, if they can’t provide these agreements then the debt becomes unenforcable which leaves me in good standing to offer a very low full and final settlement payment or to just stop paying and wait for the debt to become statute barred?
Re the CCJ debts (combined Natwest Loan and overdraft), thanks for the link and I can easily provide the evidence of my health issues but not sure a write off will be possible in my circumstances. Details are: creditor has charging order for the debt to be secured on my property (good news is the judge made the order to protect me from the creditor subsequently applying for an order for sale, order made states that as long as I make the monthly payment, no further collection action can be taken). I no longer live in the property, my daughter and grandchildren live there (paying much lower than market value rent to simply cover mortgage and basic costs) I currently rent an apartment and the creditors have conducted traces on my credit report and tracked me to my new address. My surgery was curative and whilst still suffering the effects of treatment, I am fighting hard to get well enough to return to my business or I stand to lose everything. Knowing this additional detail now, do you think asking for a write off is still a viable option?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
“Am I right in thinking, if they can’t provide these agreements then the debt becomes unenforcable which leaves me in good standing to offer a very low full and final settlement payment or to just stop paying and wait for the debt to become statute barred?” Yes.
It is highly unlikely that you can get debts written off if there is already a charging order.
Alisha says
I have several accounts currently in a DMP with StepChange that I have been paying since 2014, with an outstanding balance of just over £11,000. I got the loans and such between 2010-2013 (possibly 2014). I have looked on my credit report and several of the accounts I am paying are no longer there so does this mean they defaulted in or before 2013? I would like to get as much debt reduced as possible and would like to know if asking for the CCAs would be a good idea at this time?
Here is a breakdown of the accounts and who currently owns them: X2 Barclaycard Credit Cards owned by Link Financial, Barclays Loan & Overdraft with Barclays Collections team, NatWest Overdraft owned by PRA UK (was previously with a different collections agency), Shop Direct owned by NCO (previously owned by Lowell), Oakham (payday loan) owned by Lantern
My current DMP will mean this will not be paid off until 2040! I do believe this happened as a result of irresponsible lending (19 and with a £4000 bank loan, 2 credit cards with £3000 limit and various other loans and such) however now I just want to tackle it head on!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Which credit report have you looked at?
Alisha says
I have looked at my credit report through MoneySavingExpert.com Credit Club, I believe they use Experian
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you also look at your Noddle report as Experian may not show them all.
Asking for a CCA record isn’t going to help with the overdraft debts. But it may help with some of the others.
What are you going to do if many of the CCAs can be produced? If that leaves you with an impossibly long DMP, then you should look at a Debt Relief Order or bankruptcy to clear them and get a fresh start – it is a pity you didn’t do this in 2014, but don’t let that stop you taking the right decision now.
Alisha says
I do have a Noodle report actually! I will look at this now. If the older accounts are no longer on there should I just offer them a lower settlement offer? And would bankruptcy be beneficial if they aren’t showing on the credit report anymore
If the CCAs are produced I will continue with the DMP I am currently trying to find full time employment as previously my mental health has not allowed this but now I am in a really good place so would hope my payments would be able to be increased. I just want to get rid of as much debt as possible and have a family member willing to help so would like to get as many of these debts reduced as possible. From my research I understand it to be that even if I offer a partial settlement now the actual account will fall off my credit report from the date it defaulted rather than the date that I paid it, is that correct?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
As you are making payments to the debts they will never go away or become too old to collect, so you could still get CCJs if you stopped paying (not if the CCA can’t be produced though) and they would prevent you getting a mortgage.
“now I am in a really good place so would hope my payments would be able to be increased.” that is very good news. I do like people to have a plan B if asking for CCA doesn’t produce a great result. It sounds as though your DMP definitely isn’t going to last until 2040 and there should be no need for bankruptcy.
Alisha says
That’s great I never intend to just stop paying them.
So I should ask for the CCAs of all the accounts except the overdrafts and the ones still held by Barclays? If they cannot provide it I should offer them a settlement of 5% of the outstanding balance of just stop paying? Sorry just want to clarify.
Also can I ask for the CCAs via email or phone or does it have to be by post as doing it by post may be a very long process?
Thank you for all your advice.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You MUST ask for the CCAs by letter, send them recorded delivery and enclose a cheque or postal order for £1. If you don’t, you don’t get the benefit of the debt being unenforceable until the CCA can be found. Don’t try to short cut this. And use the exact words in the template linked to in the article above, don’t tinker.
I am sorry but this is a long process. Most debt collectors will replay saying they are trying to get hold of it, many saying it may take 40 days. If you haven’t had a reply in 2 months, you can ask what is happening but there is no point in chasing much sooner.
Settle back for a wait!. Keep copies of all your letters and the postage receipts, be methodical so you keep the replies together and can see who hasn’t yet replied.
If they can’t produce it you can offer a very low F&F or just tell your DMP firm to stop paying them. Up to you.
Alisha says
Thank you so much for your help! I will get onto this ASAP. Feels like I actually might make some noticeable progress! So glad I found this page :)
Tony says
I have received confirmation from Cabot financial, for an old M&S card, statingvthat the CCA cannot be found, and although unenforceable, the balance remains payable and due.
This was defaulted in Aug 2014 when I entered a DMP with stepchange.
I have offered £156 as a f&f (partial) settlement which equates to six months of my current DMP payment to them and they have been “unable to accept” and said they will accept £999, which is not something I can do.
What approach do you think I should take?
Stop paying altogether?
Pay £1 per month?
Counter offer?
Any other thoughts?
Thanks in advance
Sam says
BACKGROUND
Mother helped me set up a business, 13years ago, unfortunately accident/illness & hospital for several months left me disabled.
Hence debt….& my added eagerness to clear it now, as she’s 81, & especially since a hit & run 5years ago left
dad 84 wheelchair bound/brain injured (yes horrific…) 24hr care, which we/family & Carers provide in their home now. They own their home.
So obviously I just want make their lives clear of this, (like all on this site!) & mine of course, as it’s my debt, I’ve always paid it, but it’s in her name of course. I’ve always just wanted to pay what I owed & a bit of interest, have done that of 2years ago. So now want it gone!
£17k left in total. Prior to 2007. DMP Payplan since 2008 £18/mnth divided, never missed a Payment. All C.Card Debts, 4 Creditors (Cabot, NatWest, Barclays, Barclays – old Egg) 2 not with original creditor. Just received offer from Cabot for 70% off.
CCAs request – should I send off £1 to all of them?
Would that affect my DMP? How long does the process take…? If they do/don’t have them….what do I do??
Oh & importantly would/could their home ever be affected with debt of this kind? Happy to try & negotiatiate low F&Fs because as paid off all ACTUAL debt. having to sell my car, not allowed to drive anymore – £3500 – 4K, is this enough to offer F&Fs between them all?
Great site….thanks in advance, …tried to keep this concise…but failed?!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
They sound like good cases to ask for a CCA. I would be surprised if at least 1 out of 4 can’t produce the CCA.
If they can’t produce the CCA you can just stop paying. They won’t reappear on the credit record (I am assuming the have dropped off). Or offer them say 5% saying if they don’t accept you won’t be making any more payments.
If they do produce the CCA, carry on with the the DMP until you have answers from all of them. Then you know where you at stand for how many need to be settled. And can decide how much to offer. In a settlement offer enclose details of your mums age and that you have been helping her pay the debts until now but you are disabled (enclose details) and can’t work. I would expect most would accept 20%
You can just carry on with the DMP while you ask for them. It can take 1 or 2 months to get replies. Don’t be impatient. You have paid a lot for a long while, it’s important with your health problems to keep as much money as possible as without a car you need it for taxis etc.
PS have you looked into reclaiming any PPI on these accounts? It was very common on Egg cards?
Joyce says
Hi Sarah, i had a credit card and when i moved to Spain for domestic reasons i agreed with them to pay £1 a month which i did for 4 years. My main account isobviously in Spain but i kept an English account open purely to psy this with £45 per year going into it. However this has been sold to Cabot who now want a better payment. I am 68 years old living on very little, mortgage and bills etc. I have communicated with them and offered £700 in full and final settlement of tge £4250 debt. Tbey have replied stating tbey want £3800 which impossible for me. I could only pay £3 per month. I have given them my expenditures so they know my position … think i had this card for about 8 years. Where next for me ???
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Is your mortgage on a property in England or Spain?
Joyce says
Hi Sarah, my mortgage is a Spanish mortgage, look forward to hezring from you, thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You caould ask for the CCA agreement as the article above suggests. If they can’t produce it, you can simply stop paying. If they can produce it, just repeat your offer of £3 a month – if it’s all you can afford , then that’s all they can have.
Joyce says
Sarah
Thanks for tbe advice, will do as you suggest and let you know how i get on.
Regards
Joyce says
Hi Sarah, sent a letter to Cabot on 13 April for CCA, which was acknowleged. I have today received an email saying i need to put in place a monthly payment asking me to fill in a budget oirm. They already have details of my budget and no mention of my CCA agreement!! Does this mean they can’t obtain a copy as been over 2 months? If they push it i will reiterate my offer if £3 a month. I have told them i can’t call from Spain but received no call from tbem. How best to handle this Sarah? Am happy to pay £3 a month.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you send them another letter asking why they haven’t replied to your letter dated dd/mm/yy asking for the CCA agreement fir the debt.
Joyce says
Hi Sarah, have replied to their email as suggested. Tbey did send me a reply stating tbey would hopefully get CCA in 12 days. Looks like they can’t get the CCA? See what their response is, i suspect they just want to get me on a repayment plan regardless. Regards Joyce
Joyce says
Hi Sarah, have heard today from Cabot stating they are awaiting the documents from Mint in response to my request for CCA on 12th April and confirm the debt is at presant unenforceable. I did reiterate my offer of £3 per month once papers received. As it has been 3 months will Mint find the docs???.thanks Joyce
Sara (Debt Camel) says
After 3 months it’s pretty unlikely that Cabot will ever get the CCA.
Joyce says
Hi Sarah, further to my previous messages, i have not heard from Cabot since June regarding CCA agreement, what will their next move be? Thanks Joyce
Sara (Debt Camel) says
They probably aren’t going to do anything at all. You may never hear from them again.
Pam says
Hi Sarah,
I took out a Laura Ashley Store Card (GE Capital Bank) in 1998. This is the only time I actually ‘signed’ a credit agreement. In 2007 they automatically upgraded me to a Laura Ashley MasterCard (again GE Capital) which I activated with a phone call (I’m pretty certain I didn’t sign anything). I defaulted in 2009, it was then sold to CL Finance, and is now owned by Hoist (Robinson Way). I requested, over the phone from Hoist, a copy of my CCA, which they said would arrived within 60 days.
a. Technically, should I be expecting a copy of the original 1998 Store Card agreement, or the 2007 MasterCard agreement?
b. I’m a little confused what legally they can produced as a CCA. If they don’t have to send the actual original, couldn’t they just type up anything as I wouldn’t know what was on the original CCA?
c. Does it matter that I didn’t request in writing and send them a £1?
I am currently trying to get Hoist to accept a 25% FFS but they are insisting on 35%, I was hoping if they couldn’t provide a CCA it would help my cause.
Thank you in advance (and for an amazing site!!!) And sorry for the long winded question!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
a. probably the 2007 one. But I’m not sure. Let’s see what they do produce, if anything, before worrying about this.
b. it is unusual for a firm to deliberately forge an agreement! the agreement has to contain certain things such as your address at the time. Thsi isn’t something to worry about until they send you something.
c. yes. I suggest you now send them a written request with the £1. And send it recorded delivery so you have a proof of it.
If they can’t produce the CCA I suggest you reduce your offer to 5%!
Pam says
Hi Sarah,
Big thank you for your previous advice! (I hope you don’t mind me asking a couple more questions!)
1. Robinson Way have confirmed in writing that the GE Capital CCA is unavailable due to the age of the account. I realise this now puts me in a better position to negotiate a FFS, but in theory I could ignore them for the rest of my life and they could do nothing about it? (This isn’t my intention, but I want to have all the correct facts when I contact them).
2. I have a 4.5K credit card debt with Halifax, which I haven’t made a payment towards in over 2 years, but they’re not actively chasing me (other than a yearly statement). I recently contacted them for a FFS, but they wanted 75% which I can’t afford. I took the card out in 2007 (possibly even before that) and defaulted in 2012. I was wondering how likely they would still have a copy of the original CCA considering they have never sold the debt on? I’m reluctant to ask if it will rock the boat, what do you think?
Thank you again.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
1. yes
2. it’s worth asking. It is rather odd that they haven’t sold this debt to a debt collector… I don’t know how likely it is you will succeed. If you had taken out the card in 2013 say this would be entirely pointless.
Pam says
Hi Sara,
Positive and negative results from contacting my two creditors.
1. Robinson Way accepted my reduced FFS offer, so that is now paid and closed, yay !!!
2. Unfortunately, Halifax must be fastidious record keepers as they were able to supply me with a copy of my 2004 CCA. As this is now my only remaining debt I’m caught between making it go away, or waiting it out if there’s the possibility that they’ll accept a reduced FFS in the future? I guess I have the following options:
a. If you think they’re now not likely to want to renegotiate the settlement offer it might be possible to obtain the funds (borrow the money from family) to accept their 75% FFS offer of £3.5k to make it go away.
b. Start paying them £1 a month (I’ve not paid them anything for a couple of years) and continue to stall them so they don’t now start actively chasing the debt.
c. Continue to ignore them until they threaten me with a CCJ.
Obviously I have now brought attention to the debt and confirmed they have the upper hand.
Any thoughts on this would be very much appreciated and again thank you for your help.
Alisha says
Hi I sent letters to all my creditors back on 11th April. All have replied bar one company that holds two of my accounts, it has now been 18 working days since sending and I thought they had to reply within 12? What is the next step here? Would you send another letter asking for the information? I know they received the letter as sent for it signed for so have the proof. Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The 12 days isn’t a time in which the creditor has to respond, it is just that if they haven’t responded within that time, they can’t enforce the debt in court until they have provided the CCA.
I suggest just waiting. It’s not until a couple of monthhas passed that you can reasonably decide they aren’t going to be able to find the CCA.
Simon says
Hi Sara,
Please could you help, I have been contacted by Lowell for a debt of £280 to capital one. I have not heard from capital one or any other collection companies for a very long time at least 6 years I think and have asked Lowell to supply a CCA which they have. The CCA is dated 2010 but looks to be correct.
Where do I stand with disputing this further? as Im sure the debt is time barred now but not sure how to proceed.
Thank you
Simon
Andy says
Sara
Thanks so much for taking the time to do this website I was just browsing and find many with unclear or conflicting advice, this was so clear and to the point, and perhaps most importantly updated as people give you their tips and corrections.
I have some debts which go back to no later than 2002 have been paying them off for a very long time, just a few pounds per month. so I’ve been encouraged to ask them all for a CCA, it will at least let me know if they can or cannot ever take action against me (which is my constant fear).
Again, thank you so much
Andy
Steve Cottrell says
Hi Sara,
I wrote to Link Financial for a CCA on two debts sold to them by Co-Op and MBNA credit cards (2014 and 2012 respectively) and I got a tardy reply with a poor quality photocopy for only one of the debts – the Co-Op. It is an extremely poor quality image of two small sides of A4 (each just 5 inches tall) onto one single A4 sheet. The image is of 2 pages of the original application form I made (dated Feb 1998) when I applied for a Co-Op Advantage Visa card. It is impossible to read the typewritten print on the form, although I can make out (my) handwritten info on the form, and see my signature. The form is headed: ‘Advantage Visa Credit Card Application Form’. My question is: does this constitute a fulfilment of my CCA request? Is the signed application form ‘an agreement’? Or do I need to have further documentation from Link that constitutes ‘a true copy’ of my credit card agreement? I note that it does contain my name and address (at the time), and that it does have the creditor’s name and address on (but clearly no account number as this was an application), it does not have the full terms and conditions, does not have the cost of the credit, does not have the APR, does not have the cancellation rights and does not have a payment schedule (although the size of the typewritten text on the form is too small to see – but the short nature of the form prevents inclusion as this was an application form). Many thanks, Steve
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you post a copy of what you have been sent in the Legal beagles forum as it says in the How can you tell if it is right? section of the article above.
Jon says
Hi Sara, I had a Wonga loan which was passed to BPO Collections. As the debt collectors couldn’t retrieve a valid copy of the credit agreement they passed the account back to Wonga. What is the best way forwards? Ask them to settle for £1 (account balance is £300)? Or ask again for the credit agreement? They did send me some documents but not of which were a valid credit agreement. Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Did you have any loans from Wonga before this one? Have you had an email from the administrators saying you may want to submit a Claim?
Jon says
I had several loans and I’ve already submitted the claim a month or so ago.
Danny says
Hi Sara
I had 2 accounts with O2 in 2014 &2015, both had CCA agreements and both defaulted in 2016. They were sold to Arc who are chasing me for payment. I sent CCA request to both Arc and O2 in march. Arc hasn’t replied yet, but O2 replied with a data dump, writing the following:
“Unfortunately, we do not hold copies of the credit agreements for these accounts, but we have provided details of the orders and credit agreement details as recorded on our systems.”
They are also unable to clarify if the Defaults in my credit file were added by them or later by Arc.
Does this mean that:
a) the debts are not enforceable by Arc (or anyone else they sell it forward to), since no CCA copies are physically available ?
b) Can I ask Arc to remove Default from my credit file, since it appears O2 did not add the Defaults?
Thanks!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
a) the debts are not enforceable by Arc (or anyone else they sell it forward to), since no CCA copies are physically available ?
Well wait and see what Arc say. It is theoretically possible that they have a copy of the CCA and the original creditor has not.
b) you can’t ask for the default to be deleted for that reason. It isn’t unusual for a creditor to not add a default.
NB for anyone else reading this, it is usually a bad idea to ask the original creditor for the CCA. They can often find it but the debt purchaser can’t. You don’t want the CCA found! Just ask the debt purchaser.
Danny says
Surely when the DCA is queried, they go straight to the original creditor for the CCA ? I can see from recent data dumps that the OC have sent to me in response to my SAR’s, that there’s a comment in there revealing that the DCA too has queried for the CCA recently (and been declined just like me, in the above case).
Is the debtor staying quiet going to prevent the DCA – OC transaction of sharing an (available) CCA?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Sometimes a debt collector cannot go back to the original creditor. Here are extracts from two recent debt collector letters I have seen:
“Please be advised we hold no post-sales support for this account and are unable to revert to the originator for your document request”
“We regret to inform you we are currently unable to revert to the original creditor to obtain the documents your requested.”
Often a debt collector doesn’t explain why, they just say they can’t get the document at the moment and doesn’t explain why.
This may happen where the DC paid a very low amount for the debt. If you, the original creditor, sold the debt for 1p in the £, you don’t want to be hassled in future to have to get documents out of your archive, so you just put it in as a condition that the DC shouldn’t ask you to do this.
What I am saying is there is no gain at all to you from making the OC dig out the CCA. You don’t care if they have it. You don’t want them to put any effort into finding it. Give the problem to the DCA.
Danny says
Ok that makes sense.
Another question- although the O2 accounts were credit agreements under the CCA1974 (confirmed), O2 do not provide hard copies at all, just several pages of T&C’s to sign online as part of the purchase process. Does this mean that since no physical / separate CCA copy ever existed, therefore the DCA need not provide this to the debtor? And the debt can become enforceable?
In the data dump I received, O2 responded to the DCA’s request for CCA agreements with following: “These contracts have placed online. For your information, if customer take any contract online then we don’t provide a hard copy of agreement as customer agreed the terms and conditions online but we do send Welcome letter to inform customer about the tariff and other account details.”
Thanks
Debbie says
Hi Sara pls may I ask for your advise I have a debt with mmf “lantern” it’s from quick quid I believe this debt to be from about 2010 2011 I contacted quick quid and put in an affordability complaint and they say they have no records of me on file, also this debt is not showing on my credit record.shall I ask lantern for details they hold on the debt as I’m not sure what to do.?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Yes, I suggest you ask Lantern to send you CCA agreement and a statement of account for this debt.
Did you have other loans from QQ before this one? Can you get your bank statements from this period showing the loans?
Debbie says
Hi Sara thanks for reply having looked at bank statements going back to 2010 it’s not showing quickquid on so I think it is before this date also on lantern it shows north finance I believe this was pounds to pocket that I had around the same time and also no payment as been made on these debts since before 2010. I shall send for my cca agreement see what that says, once again thank you for all your help
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Ok, also ask for a statement of the account.
If that shows no payments in the last 6 years (which it sounds as though it should!) then the debt should probably be statute barred, but let’s see what it says first.
Chris says
Hi,
I’ve recently started having a new collection agent contact me about an old bank loan debt that must be over 10 years old easily from Natwest. AIC are now taking over this. It’s already over the years been through about 3 different collection agents.
Most recently in 2017 I made a formal request to Natwest to provide a copy of the CCA Agreement and after some time I got a letter back from them saying that they are unable to locate it and under section 77(4) of the CCA they are unable to take steps to enforce payment. This debt fell off my credit file a long time ago and it appears that periodically the debt gets passed back to Natwest and they pass it on again to a different collection agent.
I’ve just sent over a copy of the letter to AIC but they are claiming that letter only states Natwest can’t pursue the debt through the courts but it can still be pursued via collection agents.
If AIC contact Natwest and again they are unable to locate the CCA Agreement then where do I stand. I’ve not currently paid anything on this debt for a number of years and haven’t recognised the debt either via letter. What can I do if anything?
Thanks
Chris
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Did the first letter or email from AIC about this old debt state that the debt was unenforceable?
Chris says
No it was just stating that they’d be taking up this debt from Natwest and seeking repayment
Chris says
So there is an update to my case. I challenged the debt to AIC who said they would speak to Natwest and they came back to me yesterday. They’ve said Natwest have told them “they are unable to enforce the debt through the courts but they are able to recover the balance through debt recovery agencies, this is a valid debt and is liable to be repaid. This will have an impact on your credit file and will show as a default until the balance is resolved.”
I’ve already mentioned that this debt is over 6 years old and will no longer show on my credit file, but again they are threatening impact to my credit file which is wrong I believe.
I believe if the legal evidence to the validity of the debt can’t be proved then even paying a collection agent shouldn’t be appropriate. If I agree to do that then surely I am admitting the validity of the debt?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
“again they are threatening impact to my credit file which is wrong I believe.” you have been sent a standard template letter. If the debt had not dropped off your credit record, what they are saying is correct. As it has dropped off, it will not re-appear. You can just ignore this.
“I believe if the legal evidence to the validity of the debt can’t be proved then even paying a collection agent shouldn’t be appropriate. ” That is your opinion. But the courts and the FCA take the view that failure to produce the CCA agreement does not mean the debt is invalid – they say it remains valid and you can be asked to pay it, but if you don’t, the debt cannot be enforced by taking you to court for a CCJ.
“If I agree to do that then surely I am admitting the validity of the debt?” the debt is valid. You paying it or not paying it will not make any difference to this.
Your options are to:
1) pay the debt in full or make a monthly payment arrangement (but there is no reason why you should)
2) offer them a very low amount to settle the debt (no reason why you should, but you may feel more comfortable to have this all sorted permanently if it costs you £50. Of course this may be refused.)
3) ignore the letters from AIC (but I suggest you keep a file of them).
4) continue the correspondence (but really this isn’t going anywhere).
5) sue Natwest and attempt to make legal history (I suggest you take legal advice if you want to do this).
Chris says
Thanks for replying Sara. Sorry if my update this morning came across as abrupt or arrogant. That tone wasn’t intended.
Thanks for your advice as well. It’s much appreciated. If I just ignore the letters is there a risk that this will escalate to debt collectors knocking on my door?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No it wasn’t abrupt or arrogant, This is quite a confusing situation and a lot of what you read on the internet can be unclear or wrong… so I was attempting to be very clear.
AIC would have to be nuts to pay someone to come and knock on your door. in this situation. A debt collector has no right of entry. If you do let them in you can tell them to go away and refuse to complete an income or expenditure sheet.
You could send them one more letter saying you do not intend to make any more payments until the CCA can be found (if you feel you haven’t already said that clearly.)
Kameil says
Hello, how do you respond to Lowell after receiving documents after a CCA request? They have sent me a statement which isn’t true. It states I made payments toward the debt but I never made any payments. Is there a correct way to reply? How do I challenge this? The alleged debt is not statute barred and it has never appears on my credit file. Thanks.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Are you saying the debt is not yours? Have they sent you the CCA agreement as well as the statement? Do you know anything about this debt?
Jane says
My husband and I have been on a DMP with Stepchange since 2008. We had 21 debts – all credit card and a lot of the debts have been sold on and fallen off our credit records; our credit scores are pretty good now. I asked for credit agreements about a month ago and only 4 creditors have the agreements. Cabot who manage several have asked us to continue paying but acknowledge the debts are currently unenforceable. Link who have several others didn’t reply at all. I recently reduced our payments via Stepchange and I think I’m going to self manage the dmp myself but I’m not sure what I should do next. Is there a particular route which you would advise? We have paid religiously since the beginning but have reduced payments over the years due to changing circumstances. I have had conflicting advice but one of the team at National Debtline suggested I make a ‘loose change’ offer to those creditors who can’t produce the credit agreements. I’m assuming if I haven’t heard anything from some, they probably don’t have the paperwork. I sent postal orders with my requests for credit agreements so can’t tell if they’ve been cashed. Many thanks in advance for any advice you can offer, Jane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you stop paying Cabot and anyone else who has said the debts are unenforceable. You can offer a really low about in full and final settlement if you want but you don’t have to.
You have to carry on paying the creditors who have produced the CCAs.
For anyone who has acknowledged your CCA request but not yet either sent it or said they can’t find it, I would wait another few weeks before telling them you assume they cannot find it so you will be stopping paying.
For anyone (Link?) that hasn’t acknowledged the letter, I suggest you email gem and ask them to confirm whether they have the CCA.
Jane Norris says
Thanks Sara for your message. Cabot have said they are going to try and get hold of the original agreements – out of interest, what would you consider a really low full and final offer against a debt of £8000? I have no idea. Out of interest, they have made several settlement offers over the past year of approximately 40% reduction off the balance. Would you say that this might reflect the fact that they realise the debt is unenforceable?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Really low would be £100. I don’t see why you would pay more than 5%.
But offering 40% off doesn’t mean much – it’s the age of the debt that really suggests Cabot will find this hard
Jane says
Hello again Sara – we are working hard to rebuild our credit records and are about to self manage enforceable debts, stopping our DMP with Stepchange as virtually all our debts appear to be unenforceable from the letters received having requested CCAs. I’m going to offer very low FF to the unenforceables to see what happens but I notice on my credit record that there is a default on there from Cabot (one of the unenforceables), originally MINT. MINT is also on my credit record for the same debt – I called them to say they shouldn’t have an entry on there for the same debt and they are in the process of removing it. I also asked them to amend the recorded default date of 2014 as the DMP started in 2008 which they acknowledged was an error on their part. As a result, the Cabot entry shouldn’t be on my record either so my question is should I contact Cabot about removing the entry on the credit record BEFORE I send the FF offer – I’m worried that if I contact them and tell them MINT have amended the default date so it’s over 6 years old, I might give them a prompt somehow to have contact with MINT and find the CCA! That probably sounds very paranoid but at this stage of the game, I don’t want to take any chances.
Paul Jones says
Really interesting article. Thanks.
I had an unsecured loan (£15,000) with Alliance and Leicester taken out in 2000. I defaulted in 2001. Santander took over A and L. Over a few years they would employ debt collectors and solicitors and I would ask each for a copy of my cca. Each time they would reply that I should go back to Santander. I have never actually asked Santander for a cca. Every 6 months I receive a statement (£12,400 owing) and debt advice leaflets from them but I think they have given up asking for payment directly or indirectly as there is no demand. It dropped of my credit file around 2008. I have never admitted the debt or communicated with them other than asking their agents for cca. Last time I asked was probably around 8 years ago. Nothing since other than 6 monthly statements. Is this statute barred?
Thanks
Paul.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You are being sent the standard Notice of Sums In Arrears (NOSIA) letters. their system will churn these out automatically.
I can’t guess whether your request for a CCA agreement acknowledged the debt, but after 18 years with no payment and 8 years since the last CCA request, it is a pretty good bet it is going to be statute barred.
I suggest you carry on ignoring the NOSIA letters. Only respond to a direct demand, and then send off another CCA request using the link in the article above.
The only problem with ignoring them is if you move house, you have to decide whether to wake the sleeping lion and give them your new address or risk the lion waking up itself and sending court papers to the old one.
sivam says
hi
Sara
I paid cabot finance with out asking CCA, I paid 6 cards 30 % then they write of all , can I ask CCA now? If not produce the CCA
can I get my money back. please advice me. please reply . CCA if not get 40 days , what next step we can do ??
thanks
Sivam
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No sorry, now the debt is settled you can’t do anything about this.
sivam says
Hi
Sara
My wife got loan Barclays 25000 pounds when she worked, when she lose job loan amount is 14000 pounds, 3 to 4 months not pay anithing
mis payment then 16000 pounds , I arranged DMP at 2010 still little amound paying, can I ask CCA for this, my wife sick she not able
to work in future , now this loan PRA GROGP dealing ,she got leg problems , right hand frozen shoulder, DMP company not advice her, why I want to pay her loan ??? ( this loan 25000 + 10000 interest ]
she is depending on me. please advice me.
thanks
Sivam
Sara (Debt Camel) says
yes she can ask for the CCA. Does she have other debts as well? Are you buying or renting?
sivam says
hi, Sara thank for reply
she had only one debts, house mortage with my name only, not my wife name, we are request to write off the debt, PRA GROUP ask her bank statement and NHS medical reposts.
thanks
Sivam
Temmy says
Hi Sara
I will appreciate your advice to my current situation. I had quite a few credit cards and personal loans around 2000 and 2005, i had a DMP through stepchange in place from 2006 and made payments up until around 2014, during this time literally all my debts had been passed on some more than once to Cabot financial, Wescott, link financial. in 2015, I contacted each Debt collector directly to make a token payment which i did up until August last year when i could no longer afford it, (7 different debts). I am not working and i have explained this to them, they are still chasing me. I went to the CAB and they suggested a DRO as the debts in total is less than £20,000 but i need to find £90 to start that and it will badly affect my credit rating. My Credit record is clear at present, i dont own anything in my name. A couple of months ago i got a letter from a solicitor saying i should contact them or they would start recovery proceedings if i dont contact them regarding one of the creditors, i think it was Wescott but i have ignored this. Just last week I had a doorstepper from Resolvecall drop a card saying this was a first visit and i should contact them. I am very sorry for this long post but i am not sure what i should do now going forward, i will appreciate your advice on my predicament. Thanking you in advance.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
CAB’s suggestion of a DRO is one way forward. But you could first try asking the creditor to supply the CCA agreement as the article above suggests. If they can’t produce it – and that is quite likely for such old debts – then you can just tell them to go away and you will not be paying them anything.
Temmy says
Hi Sara, thank you for getting back to me so quickly. i will do that and I will let you know how i get on. Thank you once again
Temi says
Hi Sara, i have received 3 replies from the 6 CCA requests made, the one sent to the solicitor of a Debt collector stating that they have requested a copy of the original credit agreement and statement of account and will forward in due course once received, the 2nd response stated they have been unable to to get the information requested and if this information ever becomes available they will complete the request but for now the account is unenforceable. The 3rd response stated that they do not have the information on file and will be requesting a copy from the original lender but this may take some time but they will write within the next 12 days with an update. 5 of the requests are with the same debt collector so i am hoping that i get the remaining responses in the next few days and can update you accordingly. Thank you loads.
Sunny says
Hi Sara
In 2008 I got into debt with 10 creditors Unfortunately due to not handling matters well with the stress it caused me, everything snowballed, I had a nervous breakdown as a result two creditors obtained ccjs then next were charging orders on my home for around 35k which they ramped up to this figure with multiple charges amounting to 7k on the original debts until they filed their claims. A friend helped me to organize a dmp in 2009 which included small payments to all of the unsecured debts and two secured debts.
I am still paying the dmp. I sold my house this year due to these debts, as financially not much had improved significantly to reduce the dmp debts.I am now in my mid 50’s. All secured debts were paid which left me with very little, I can’t buy another home with what I’m left with.
I have no assets not even a car, I will ask the dca’s to produce CCA’s. I previously haven’t made any ppi claims or any other claims in the past such as unreasonable bank charges which were as much as 38£ for each bounced direct debit etc with Lloyd’s, MBNA or RBS for fear of retaliation as I had a small amount of equity left in my property. Can I claim these types of charges still if two creditors had charging orders?
My dmp is in place but coming up for review next month
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Yes, you can claim PPI – get the complaints in as soon as possible, deadline end August. Lloyds and MBNA were two of the biggest PPi culprits – I hope you have success with some of these.
realistically you are not likely to win any claims about unreasonable bank charges from before 2009.
But definitely ask all the debt collectors you still owe money to, to produce the CCA agreement for any debts except for overdrafts. With such old debts this is absolutely worth doing.
Clare says
Hi,
I have 2 debts with capquest – sold on from arrow & originally Virgin CC & Bank of Scotland – they went into default 4 years ago, totalling about £17k
In March 19 requested my credit agreement – I do not have any info relating to the cards at all.
2 weeks ago i received a letter from Arrow stating that my BOS agreement was enclosed – it wasnt, they sent me someone else’s catalogue agreement.
I immediately contacted capquest – main concern being where my paperwork has ended up! They have given a poor response stating all details have been destroyed – although the other persons details were still in my original email.
I was also given a one line regarding my information ‘ We would like to re-assure you that your information has not breached and we have taken the necessary steps to remediate this incident‘ What does this mean? I have responded but no reply yet obviously I am concerned about this.
Also, there has been nothing coming from Virgin either – is that normal 5 months after the request?
Any advice appreciated – finding this rather stressful now!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Are you making any payments to these debts?
clare says
Was, I’m not at the moment. What do you advise please?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Well no need to start making payments until they produce the CCA agreements. You could try asking for compensation for the data security breach £75 seems to be a common amount paid for this sort of thing.
Danielle says
Hi Sara
To cut a long story short, I purposefully failed an iva last year (originally started July 2017) and I currently have payment plans with all of my creditors.I can offer full and finals with the majority of the creditors. There is only one which I think is worth asking for the CCA to get a low f&f. Barclay card opened in 2007, went into a payment plan in 2012 and it was passed to link financial in 2017. On my creditkarma report, this one is still showing, opened 2007 with link but no comment of a default. Is it correct, if it had a default back in 2012 then it should no longer be showing the debt at all?I can only assume that there has never been a default which means if I get an f & f with this one then satisfied status will show 6 years after I get the f&f. I am asking as other debts have defaults from 2017 and I want these off in 4 years so that I can look at a mortgage in 4-5 years time. Which means going down the CCA route and a low f&f with this one could cause it to stay another 6 years. So, I’m trying to decide whether to try and clear this one in full and get f&fs with the ones that have defaulted. This also may be an issue with some of the others as I have a further 3 debts that have been passed to link so if i pay one off in full they may not agree to a lower amount on the others as they will think i have more money than i do. I’m not 100% that my understanding on all of this is correct so I would appreciate your advice
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Let’s start with what is definite.
Any debt in your IVA should have had a default added no later than the start date on the IVA. So if you ask Link to add that default now, then the loan will disappear in 4 years time whatever else happens.
There is also a good case for Barclaycard to have added a default back in 2012 or 2013. I suggest you also ask them to do that, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/debt-default-date/. If they do Link will then have to use that date.
I suggest you ask for the CCA agreement for all credit card and loan debts that were in your IVA. If they can’t be found, you can ignore them or offere a very low settlement amount. If they can be found you just carry on with the settlement offer you were planning.
Jane says
Hi Sara, I am going to request the CCAs initially for my oldest debts (pre 1995). I’m on a DMP and my concern is that if the creditor can produce the CCA they may decide to start court proceedings even if I continue to pay through my DMP? My plan is to find out which of the debts are unenforceable to help me negotiate f&f when I get the tax free cash from my pension next year. I fully intend to continue making payments through step change. I’m just concerned that DCA’s may get nasty if I make this request.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
They aren’t likely to get nasty, but why not start with the oldest ones and see how they go.
Jane says
Today I’ve sent two of my creditors CCA requests. Both debts are pre2007 and one is from around 1992. In total I have 9 creditors and pay £345 per month towards my debts which currently stand just over 47k. (started of at £83k! yikes). DMP due to finish in 2030! my intention is to find out which debts would be unenforceable before I offer settlement amounts from my pension next year (When I’m 55). I’m doing them a couple at a time so I can keep track properly and know where I’m going with them. first ones are Cabot – debt formerly mint credit card with 4k outstanding and Link formerly MBNA balance £11k. I’ll update with details of how I get on. Many thanks for the advice I’ve received on this site, Sara xx
Jane says
Quick question. I have three accounts now owned by PRA all formerly Barclaycard (one barclaycard, one formerly Egg card, one formerly goldfish card) do I need to send three individual CCA requests by recorded delivery or can they all go on the one letter?
Thank you
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I would send them all separately, there seems less chance of one being lost.
Glyn says
Hi Sara – can you help me please as I don’t know what to do next.
I have 4 debts totalling 18k with Idem, Wescot, Moorcroft and Cabot. The debts are all pre 2009. Not sure if they all defaulted, but there’s nothing on my credit file at the moment. I’m on a DMP and paying £400 a month – due to finish 2023
After a CCA request, Cabot and Idem admit to not having it and are in contact with original lender. (Only idem admit that debt can’t be enforced).
Moorcroft say my request has been passed on to their client.
Wescot state my account has been placed on hold whilst they investigate and have passed the matter on to their clients.
What do I do now, please? Should I continue paying token payments to them all and then offer F&F to them all in future, or now? Do I need to tell my DMP service about these? What if they tell me to continue paying? I’m struggling as I’ve lost a small contract with work leading to a reduction in wages of £280.
Thanks in advance.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
how long ago did you ask for the CCAs? Are these the only debts in your DMP?
Glyn says
I asked about two weeks ago last Friday. They are the only debts.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
This is too soon to conclude that the CCAs can’t be found. Even though legally they can’t be enforced at the moment, if a CCA is found then that one can be.
It’s up to you what you want to do, but I suggest you:
– talk to your DMP firm (who is it?) about reducing your DMP payment now as your income has fallen.
– wait until it has been a couple of months before deciding that they can’t find the CCAas and telling your DMP firm to stop making payments
– at that point think about whether to offer F&Fs. Or just not pay.
Glyn says
Thanks a lot Sara.
The DMP is with Stepchange
Jane says
Hello Sara – we are working hard to rebuild our credit records and are about to self manage enforceable debts, stopping our DMP with Stepchange as virtually all our debts appear to be unenforceable from the letters received having requested CCAs. I’m going to offer very low FF to the unenforceables to see what happens but I notice on my credit record that there is a default on there from Cabot (one of the unenforceables), originally MINT. MINT is also on my credit record for the same debt – I called them to say they shouldn’t have an entry on there for the same debt and they are in the process of removing it. I also asked them to amend the recorded default date of 2014 as the DMP started in 2008 which they acknowledged was an error on their part. As a result, the Cabot entry shouldn’t be on my record either so my question is should I contact Cabot about removing the entry on the credit record BEFORE I send the FF offer – I’m worried that if I contact them and tell them MINT have amended the default date so it’s over 6 years old, I might give them a prompt somehow to have contact with MINT and find the CCA! That probably sounds very paranoid but at this stage of the game, I don’t want to take any chances.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
yes it’s a bit paranoid :)
But there is no hurry about this. I suggest you wait until Mint have updated your credit record. And offer the F&F to Cabot now. Then later get Cabot to update your credit record.
Andy says
Hello All., I sent a CCAs to debt collectors who acknowledged the receipt of same. its been in excess of 22 days since I sent the request but to date, I haven’t heard from them nor received a copy of the agreement. What should I do now??? Thanks in advance for your kind replies.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Wait! After a couple of months you can assume that they are having trouble finding the CCA agreement, but this is too soon.
Paul B says
Hi, Firstly to say, thank you for the time and effort in managing this site and column!
The question I have is;
After sending the template requesting CCA’s I have had reply’s from Cabot and IDEM Servicing stating my Credit Card Agreements cannot be found, so considered unenforceable, but they will still contact me to ‘discuss’ repayment proposals and they could register to credit reference agencies..!?
Both credit cards were pre 2007 when I was at university and went into default around 2007/8, around £1600 currently due split across both. No interest was added at default time and I’ve been paying £30pm for years without missing a payment. Nothing now shows on my credit report with reference to these.
So, do I offer a few hundred to settle or what? Can they be put back on my credit file? I am wanting to get a mortgage soon and don’t want to rock the boat by settling and them coming up as settled, or not paying and they come back on as defaulted? Or will they now just go away as I reckon they paid pence for these debts originally.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
“So, do I offer a few hundred to settle or what?” well you could, or you could simply stop paying them. For accounts that old you may think the chance of them ever finding the old paperwork is about zero. So there is nothing they can do except send you the odd letter asking if you fancy paying them anything.
“Can they be put back on my credit file?” No.
Paul B says
Hi Sara,
Thanks for the quick reply.
It is just the worry of them putting a default back on my credit report. They state “The balance of the account is still outstanding and we will continue to pursue this debt which will include registering any arrears and defaults with credit reference agencies”.
I thought that if over 6 years , (these are over 10 years) then they cant go back on my record?
I hope that is the case.
Thanks again.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
These debts have been removed from your credit record as they had a default date more than 6 years ago. they cannot now be added with a more recent default date.
NB if you are going for a mortgage, do make sure you check all three of your credit records now to make sure there is nothing unexpected on them, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/best-way-to-check-credit-score/ for how to do this.
Jane says
Hi Sara,
Checking my old debts for CCA’s and had these different replies from CABOT on two separate defaulted accounts (both pre 2006) which arrived in the post today (ie roughly 12 days after I asked for the CCA)
First debt response: ‘we have been unable to get the information requested from the original lender. If this information ever becomes available to us we will complete your request, but until we are able to supply this your credit agreement is unenforceable’
Second debt response: ‘Unfortunately we currently do not have the relevant information on file, so we will be requesting a copy of the credit agreement. This may take some time but we will write to you within the next 12 days with an update’ The letter goes on to suggest I check the National Debtline website factsheet on CCA requests. The letter doesn’t mention that as the initial 12 days has passed it is (presumably) unenforceable at this time and until they might obtain it.
It it right that they can refer me somewhere else ie to another website to read that information?
Is it too early to make a FFO on the first debt ie where they give the first response? if so how much – the debt is circa 6k?
ps thanks for your time in maintaining this site – I learned a lot and it encouraged me to pluck up courage to look again at these old debts, particularly as I’ve finally got some funds to make a FFO
Sara (Debt Camel) says
“It it right that they can refer me somewhere else ie to another website to read that information?” Sure, why not, it is a good source of information.
You can make a F&F offer to the first debt now if you want. Or you could just stop paying it, you don’t have to make an offer. It’s ancient. The chance of them ever finding the CCA now they have said they can’t is very low.
sivakumaran says
hi
Sara
I send CCA request , 3 creditors they not sent the copy CCA now 10 weeks finished. if I stop payment to DMP, what will happen.
I had house , my problem Start 2010 one creditor defolt enter 2014, but I paid DMP no mis payment , I paid mortage interest 4.99 ,
my friends pay mortgage interest rate is 1.75 % Santander not allow me to move anather bank, they make money, how can I complain affobility
please advice me.
thanks you help
Siva
Sara (Debt Camel) says
hi Siva,
if you asked for a CCA 10 weeks ago AND the debt collector has acknowledged it (did they?), then it is now likely that they won’t be able to find the CCA and therefore that they can’t take you to court. In that case you can tell your DMP firm that the debt is unenforceable and you want them to stop paying it.
Your mortgage problem. – who is your mortgage with?
Crystal maze guy says
I have a number of debts credit cards an unsecured loan the original accounts were taken out about 6/7 years ago and I was in a DMP plan with stepchange for about 3 years just ended that now as it wasn’t working for me. The debts have all been sold on passing through differently companies and seem to be settled with PRA GROUP, WESTCOT, CABOT AND INTRUM. is it worth sending off a CCA request to these or are my debts not old enough yet?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
“and seem to be settled with” do you mean those are the current creditors?
There isn’t any particular age that a debt has to be, it’s just for very old debts it’s VERY likely that the CCA agreement cant be found. It seems worth trying for these debts.
Out of curiosity, why wasn’t the StepChange DMP working for you?
Mike Fox says
I have a slightly different situation and would be interested in your opinion on what I should do.
I had a Barclaycard account, Opened 15 Jan 2011 with a Defaulted Date of 16 Sep 2015 (according to my Experian credit report)
I have not been in resident in the UK for over 10 years now, I have no property or any belongings of any type in the country. I still hold a current account with Natwest, however, this is rarely used and only kept incase of my return.
Today I had a call from my elderly mother explaining that she had inadvertently opened a letter address to me and it was from Howard Cohen & Co Solicitors with a LETTER OF CLAIM, on behalf of Robinson way ltd.
This is the first time I have heard from the solicitors or Robinson way, as any mail received at the address has been returned to sender, stating: The named person is no longer at this address. I believe that in itself, is an offence to keep sending mail to the address once that information has been related.
Would you advise me to ask for the CCA agreement in this case, as I am no longer living at this address or continue to NOT acknowledge receipt of this letter? My month is nearly 90 and is now very worried about court bailiffs arriving at her door demanding payments
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The solicitors would have sent a Letter Before Action – it is not their fault that you haven’t given them your current address and aren’t having your mail forwarded. That LBA stage would have been the easy point to ask for a copy of the CCA agreement and they could not have started a Claim if they could not produce it.
if you have other debts you have been trying to ignore you may want to consider if this is fair on your mum.
“I believe that in itself, is an offence to keep sending mail to the address once that information has been related.” That doesn’t sound likely – what law would that be?
“I have not been in resident in the UK for over 10 years now” how did you open the account if you were not in the UK?
Your choice now is to ignore the claim, get a CCJ, and tell your mum to ignore bailiffs if they turn up. They have no right of entry.
Or to try to defend the CCJ. If you want to defend hoping they cannot produce the CCA you will need help with this. You can talk to National Debtline 0044 121 410 6200 from outside the UK. or post on the Legal Beagles forum: https://legalbeagles.info/forums/forum/legal-forums/court-claims-and-issues
Mike Fox says
Hi Sara, Thank you so much for the speedy reply, I have no other debts in the UK and I was unaware of this one until now, this is the first letter they have sent and is the pre-action protocol for debt claims. They state that I have 30 days to respond to this letter with full payment or to enter a suitable payment instalment.
does this mean it is too late to ask for a copy of the CCA agreement?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Ok so you don’t yet have a Claim, but a letter before claim. You can ask for the CCA, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/letter-before-claim-ccj/
Jane says
Hello Sara, we’re currently on a DMP with Stepchange which we’ve been on since 2008 but about to self manage. I requested CCAs back in May from all creditors – half replied with no credit agreements so acknowledging that the debts were unenforceable until they found them, and half didn’t reply at all, including Link who have bought about 6 of our debts. I followed up to Link via email asking for a response but still nothing back. About 10 days ago, I wrote to all unenforceable creditors including Link, offering a 5% FF settlement. Cabot (who own about 6 accounts now), came back with quite a high counter offer and still nothing at all from most creditors including Link. In my last letters offering the settlements, I stated that if I didn’t hear anything more from them within 14 days, I’d be stopping all payments with Stepchange. Now I’m ready to do that but I’m slightly unnerved by the lack of ANY correspondence from creditors such as Link. What would you advise I do? Follow through as I said? Also with the offers from Cabot, shall I just stop paying them and maybe offer another FF settlement in a couple of months? I’d like to draw a line under all this rather than stop paying altogether. With the few enforceables we have (about £5K out of the remaining £70K debt on the DMP) I will just keep paying. Thank you Sara for all your advice; it’s been invaluable to me for getting my head straight :)
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you just stop paying. What can they do? Nothing except send the odd cross letter. I would wait at least 6 months before making another offer, after only 2 months they may barely have noticed you aren’t paying.
Lisa says
Hi..I have a number of debts. Around £45k. All on credit cards. The credit accounts are old. Around 15-20 years. I was managing everything well until 2018 when life changed unexpectedly. I had never missed a payment. Most of it has now defaulted and PRA has been sold the MBNA debt. Another company has been sold another. I am paying back £5 a month for Tesco Credit card. Should I ask for a CCA for all these accounts which the debt has been sold? I have had balance transfers over the years and don’t know when having these transfers done online whether you then digitally sign a new CCA. The plan was, before I read about this, to offer around £9k to clear the debt in a couple of years time when I will have more money. I can’t go bankrupt. Thank you.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
A balance transfer typically opens up a new credit card account. Unless you are sure you have BTd into an existing account, some of your accounts may be a lot more recent than you think…
And you have only recently defaulted. I suggest you sit back and make low monthly payments for a couple of years and then reconsider your situation.
Lisa says
Thank you. The BT were all on existing accounts. I hadn’t opened a new account in years. Just transferred between cards. The plan is to save some money and they offer final settlement. It seems pointless doing an IVA as most of the fees go to the company or holds the plan (if I understood correctly) I am hoping to settle in a couple of years for around £9k or do you think I am being too optimistic?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Can I ask where the 9k would come from? Are you saving it up from now or would it come from a family member or an inheritance?
Also are you buying or renting?
lisa says
Its a mixture of family being able to help and hopefully saving. I am currently renting. I don’t want to go bankrupt. After reading this page was hoping to ask for CCA but upon your advice will make a small payment each month and then ask for a CCA. I have not actually opened a new credit card for many years. I just transferred balances between the different cards I had.
Jane says
Thank you for your response. I’m about to call Stepchange to come off the DMP and self manage. I will stop paying all unenforceables including those who haven’t responded at all and in about 6 months, may try another FF offer. Incidentally having been on a DMP for over 10 years and having rented for all that time because of our circumstances, we would love to try and get a mortgage again next year. I will also try and settle with the enforceables if they will. If I go down this route and still nothing has been resolved with the unenforceables, do we still declare those debts at the time of getting mortgage advice or are these unenforceable debts considered null and void. We won’t be on a DMP anymore so won’t need to mention that either I assume. Also if someone miraculously produces a credit agreement further down the line prior to settling, would we just start paying again or would they chase missed payments too? Assuming if we started paying again, they wouldn’t come after us with a CCJ? Many thanks again in advance for your advice.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If a debt collector has said a debt is unenforceable and it has been more than a year, I would see it as very safe the debt won’t resurface and it doesn’t matter for mortgage applications. BUT don’t apply to an mortgage lenders who you have previous had problem debts with. So MBNA problems will rule out the Halifax as they are all part of the Lloyds group. Going through a mortgage broker and telling them about your previous problems is a good idea.
If you are still repaying some enforceable debts outside your DMP, then these need to be settled before you apply for a mortgage. It’ may not be on your credit record but a mortgage lender will see the monthly payments from your bank account.
If a CCA miraculously turns up, you need to make a good monthly offer to it. Or a settlement offer. With other debts out of the way, you would hopefully be able to pay more than they were recently getting. In that case you shouldn’t have a problem with a CCJ.
Jane says
Thank you very much – I’m just checking my credit file to check it’s water tight before I stop paying and I have a Link entry on my file – all paid up so positive reporting on the entire record. They bought this debt from Barclaycard whose default has fallen off my credit record now as it’s been over 6 years. I think I know the answer but I’m taking no chances so checking with you; there’s no way Link can add a default to this account in their own right now can they as the original debt has already defaulted?
Jane says
Hi Jane,
If Barclaycard defaulted this account over 6 years ago, link should not be reporting anything on your credit file now. I had similar issue, contacted barclaycard who contacted DCA and told them to stop reporting.
Jack says
Can you help please? I wrote to Amex for my CCA and their reply says:
“We are no longer able to provide the original Application or T and C applicable at the point of application, which also prevents us from issuing an Notices of Variations. This is up until 22/2/2011 when it is noted what product code and applicable T and C the account was changed to.
Please find enclosed T and C known from the point of account cancellation, and Notice of variation from Feb 2011. We enclose a signed statement of account. These documents form the executed agreement between you and Amex.
Whilst we no longer hold the original this doesn’t prevent us from seeking funds outstanding. There can be no argument that such a contract ever existed as you have used your card since the account was opened in ’08.
When the original card was sent to you it would have included the T and C. It would have stated that you should only sign and use the card if you agreed to be bound by the T and C. You would have been sent updated T and C with each renewal and if any amendment had been made a Notice of Variation would have bee sent.
Any payment plan agreed with the agency must be adhered to.”
They have not provided anything with the address I was at when I took out the agreement.
Is this letter a lot of smoke and mirrors? Or is it that, for some reason I can’t see, they can enforce the debt?
Your advice much appreciated. Thanks.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I note that they have said they can ask you to repay the debt but they have not said that it is enforceable.
But I think you need to talk to people who are experts in this area. See the “How can I tell if it’s right?” Section in the article above.
Jack says
Thanks, Sara
I did look there first so must have missed something! *puts specs on*
Jane James says
Hi Sara
From your advice above ‘For a debt that is still with the original creditor, I wouldn’t bother asking for the CCA agreement unless the debt was VERY old’ how old is VERY old?
I have a debt which dates from 2005 but which is still with the original creditor.
I’m looking to make a FFO, so if they don’t have the agreement it will be lower than if they do.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
That’s very old!
Has this debt defaulted?
jane james says
Yes it has defaulted
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Then it’s definitely worth asking for a CCA before making a settlement offer.
Adam says
Hi Sara,
I had lantern contact me about a lending stream default. I requested a CCA and they sent back an agreement -there was no e-signuatre, no personal details (account number, address or my name) on it, just a breakdown of costs. That’s not enforceable right? Do i reply that or leave it? They are still chasing me telling me they’ve given me the agreement. i don’t think they have at all.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Hi Adam,
there the section How can you tell if it is right? above which looks at who you should talk to about this.
in addition, was this the only loan you had from Lending Stream?
Adam says
No there was a few. They’ve since sent me a letter lumping them all together under one account (but listing the 4) looking at your list what i said above (no name/address) must be unenforceable?