A reader asked:
I have a Debt Management Plan where I still owe 17k to 10 creditors. I have been paying for ten years at £150 a month, so it will end in about 8 years. Most of the debts have gone from my credit record but a few are marked as “on a DMP”.
I want to pay off the debts and improve my credit rating. I have been offered about 7k by a relative, so I could offer all my DMP creditors around 40%. How would settlements affect my credit rating? Is it worth me finding out if the debts are actually enforceable?
It’s a great idea to try to end a long-running Debt Management Plan (DMP).
I have already looked at offering settlements where the DMP had only been running a few years. And this Guide to F&Fs looks at the how to make a good full and final settlement offer to a creditor.
But this reader’s case is different:
- older debts have different options as it may be that the debts are unenforceable;
- there is the added complication of the different way his DMP is showing on his credit record.
Are the debts enforceable?
It’s best to do this before you offer a settlement.
For credit cards, catalogues and most loans, the debt collector has to be able to supply you with a copy of your Consumer Credit Act agreement if you ask for it. See How to ask for a CCA agreement, which looks at how to do this and when you should do it. It doesn’t apply to overdrafts, utility or mobile bills.
How likely is this to work?
This reader’s accounts are at least ten years old. It is likely that at least some of his current creditors may be unable to produce the CCA agreement:
- the older a debt is the less likely it is that it can be found;
- it is also harder to find if the debt has been sold to a debt collector, who usually has to ask the original creditor for it.
If it can’t be found
If the creditor can’t produce the CCA agreement for your debt, it is unenforceable.
I would allow the debt collector a couple of months before deciding that they aren’t going to be able to find it. Three if you are feeling nervous.
The debt is still legal, it stays on your credit record and the creditor can ask you to pay it … but they can’t make you by taking you to court. The regulator says they have to explain this to you – they aren’t allowed to pretend you do have to pay it.
In this case you can simply stop paying the debt – or tell your DMP firm to stop paying it, explaining why.
There is a small chance that the CCA agreement could be found later. This seems to be rare – if the debt collector hasn’t found in in the first few months the chances of it turning up later seem very low! To prevent that being a problem, and to stop the odd polite letter, you may decide to offer them a really low settlement amount, say 5%.
But if you want to offer this low amount to tidy up the loose end, then it is best to stop paying the debt first for a couple of months. Then the creditor will realise you are serious about not carrying on paying them. And then make your low offer. If they reject it, just say then you won’t be paying them anything.
This is why it’s worth asking for the CCA agreement before making a good settlement offer. By clearing out of the way any unenforceable debts you will have more money left to settle the others.
When the CCA agreement is produced
If you aren’t sure that what you have been sent is a proper CCA, read “How can you tell if it’s right” in the main article on CCAs.
If the creditor produces the CCA agreement, then the reader can just make the full and final settlement offer of 40% that was planned. That is a very good offer for a debt that old if only low payments are being made. He can help ensure the offer is accepted by:
- explaining that the money is coming from a relative if it will help to settle the debt; and
- enclosing an income and expenditure statement showing that he can’t afford to increase his monthly payment.
The only downside to asking for a CCA agreement is that if the creditor finds it, they may then decide to go to court for a CCJ. But that would be pretty unusual if you are making them a good settlement offer!
Effect on your credit score
Settling debts doesn’t improve your credit rating. People often don’t believe that, it sounds so odd. In practice settling the debts makes some lenders much more likely to give you more credit and it’s vital if you want a mortgage in the next few years. But that headline credit score number will not change.
Where a debt already has a default date, it is going to disappear 6 years after that date and making a full and final settlement offer won’t change that. In this readers case the debts have already gone – they will not reappear.
For debts with an arrangement to pay marker and no default date, settling the debts will mean they drop off 6 years after the settlement.
It is a pity all the debts weren’t defaulted originally – the reader should ask the original creditor (not the current debt collector that owns the debt) to add a default to the record back before it was sold.
If that is done – and some creditors do agree easily – that will remove the debt sooner and improve the credit rating. But do this after asking for the CCA agreement and sorting out the F&Fs – it’s too complicated to try to do this all at once.
Do F&Fs make it harder to get a mortgage?
How does a DMP affect your credit score?
Do I have to pay a debt not on my credit file?
ron johnson says
can i ask for cca even though i own my own property.and then not have to pay my crediortior if they cannot prouduce cca.thank you
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Yes. The CCA has nothing to do with whether you CAN afford to pay the debt at all. The law takes the view that if a creditor can’t prove you owe the debts – and that includes producing the details of the agreement which shows the terms when you opened the account – then they can’t enforce it in court.
BUT whether you should ask for the CCA depends a lot on how likely it is they can produce it. Because if you make a debt collector locate the CCA agreement and they suspect you should be paying more to them each month they could then go for a CCJ and then a charge over your house. So you need to think:
– how old is the debt? what sort of debt? who is the original creditor? Has it been sold to a debt collector? and how much are you paying them every month?
ron johnson says
many thanks,very good answer ,and very helpful,RON
Jay says
Hi Sara
Looking for some guidance.
Entered in a DMP in 2009. have 7 debts, 5 have dropped off credit file, 2 remain. All have been sold on from original debtors some numerous times. I have approached the original lender (MBNA) of one that still shows to ask for a default to be recorded. They have advised they are unable to as they sold it over 6 years ago so they no longer report the debt. The current holder (Idem) will not doing anything as MBNA hadn’t placed a default when they bought it. I haven’t tried the same approach with the other debt which is Barclaycard>link financial.
My question is should i approach all current holders of the debts (except one relating to an O/D) and ask for copies of the CCA agreements?
If they find them is that detrimental? If they don’t provide them, do i make very low settlement offers? I assume those debts that have dropped off will be unaffected either way? what about the two that remain? if they cant supply the CCA and i settle for a lower amount how is the credit file affected?
As it stands the plan would end in Aug 2022 and I’m not struggling with the current monthly payment.
TIA
Jay
Sara (Debt Camel) says
With 7 debts from 2009 which have all been sold on more than once there is a very good chance that at some of them will be unable to produce the CCA agreement.
“If they find them is that detrimental?” in theory with the CCA agreement they could go to court for a CCJ. But if you can settle some of your debts this way, then you can increase the payments to the others. A creditor who is going to be repaid in 12 or 18 months isn’t likely to bother going to court (although it is theoretically possible).
“If they don’t provide them, do i make very low settlement offers?” yes, or just stop paying.
“I assume those debts that have dropped off will be unaffected either way?” yes, they will never re-appear on your credit record
“what about the two that remain? if they cant supply the CCA and i settle for a lower amount how is the credit file affected?” your credit record would be marked with a partial settlement marker and the record would drop off after 6 years.
Jay says
Thanks for your comments very helpful.
If I ask for the CCA and they provide. Why would they go to court if I’m paying an agree amount anyway?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I didn’t say it was likely they would, I just said it was possible. Perhaps they might think you would repay them more quickly – that is less likely as you are actually paying a reasonable amount, not just a token £1 a month to each debt.
Jay says
Understood. Appears no harm in asking for CCAS if only for my records. Cheers
Sara (Debt Camel) says
if you do. come back and say what results you get! People would love to know which debt collectors/original creditors this works with.
Clive says
Hi Sara
I have two debts with Lloyd’s Bank
One for credit card the other for a loan
Credit card pre 2005 with debt of £5185
Loan with outstanding debt £5078 taken out 2009
Each debt has been placed with 5 different DMC’s
Each time they have changed DMC I have requested the original agreements but never had a response
Lloyd’s have now sold the credit card debt to Intrum
How do I stand in challenging these debts when Lloyd’s will not respond to the cca requests
Clive
Sara (Debt Camel) says
When did you last make payments to these debts?
You send the two CCA requests to Intrum – see https://debtcamel.co.uk/ask-cca-agreement-for-debt/. Send these as two separate requests, each with a £1 fee.
Let us know how you get on!
Clive says
Hi Sara
Thank you for your reply
I will send a cca request to Intrum for the credit card debt. The last payment for this account was paid on 10/12/2018 this payment was paid to Lloyd’s Bank the original owner of the debt before they sold it on to Intrum. Before Lloyd’s sold this debt to Intrum I requested a cca on five depart occasions with out a reply
As for the Lloyd’s Bank loan debt this is still owned by Lloyd’s Bank
Again I have requested the original agreements under s77of the cca without a reply
This loan was taken out in 2009
Last payment on this account was made on 09/12/2018
I don’t know if this question has come up before but if Lloyd’s can’t produce the original agreements or a reconstituted one before they sold the debt to Intrum would they have to inform Intrum I have requested the original agreements and that they could not produce them
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Did Lloyd’s ignore your requests or did they say they couldn’t find it? Did you send £1 with the requests?
Maz says
Can I ask for a CCA if stupidly already agreed to pay debt by instalment. Though debt collector as refused instalment and have applied for ccj
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Yes you can ask for a CCA if you are already paying or have made an offer to pay a debt.
Have you been sent a Claim Form? When? If a court case has started you have to DEFEND the court case, not just send off a CCA request.
Maz says
Yes received claim pack and stupidly panicked and immediately responded saying I would pay the debt in instalments, then spoke to company on phone and they said unless I pay debt in full now they will be carrying on with a CCJ. They said court date is 18th November this debt dates back to 2012 was sold on to Capquest who have now got drydens solicitors, they say I made a payment in 2014 so it’s enforceable and they don’t need to accept payment plan and as I responded to the claim pack I have accepted the CCJ
Sara (Debt Camel) says
OK, I can’t give advice on a court case in progress. Please phone National Debtline on 0808 808 4000.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You can’t ask for the CCA after you have a CCJ – talk to National Debtline.
Clive says
Hi Sara
Lloyd’s Bank have ignored any request for the credit agreements. The last time of asking for these agreement was 22/10/2018
Each request have been sent with the £1.00 cost
Several debt companies have been dealing with these debts for Lloyd’s
When asking for the agreements through them they all said the would contact Lloyd’s for the agreements only to come back with the answer they are no longer dealing with the debts and the debts have been sent back to the original owner
As I have mentioned Lloyd’s sold one of these debts to Intrum on 28/12/2018
And I have received a notice of assignment from Lloyd’s Bank and a letter from Intrum confirming this
I will send a letter requesting a copy of the agreement to Intrum but don’t know where I stand with the other debt still owned by Lloyd’s Bank as they continue to ignore my request for the agreements
I much appreciate your replies
Kindest regards
Clive
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Credit card debt with Intrum. If Lloyds had previously said they cannot locate the CCA agreement, then you could have just sent Intrum a copy of that, rather than a new request for the CCA agreement. But as they haven’t, it’s going to be simpler to send Intrum a new request than complicate it with failures to reply to old ones. I suggest you don’t set up any arrangement to pay them until you get an answer to the new request – normally I suggest leaving arrangements to pay in place, but in this case you don’t have one with Intrum.
Loan debt still with Lloyds.
If the cheque you sent on 22/10/18 was cashed:
Send them a complaint that you have not had a reply to your request for a copy of your CCA dated 22/10/18 and that the £1 cheque has been cashed. Point out the CCA act says the debt is currently unenforceable. Say you will be stopping making any payments to this debt after 30 days if they do not provide you with a copy of the agreement.
If the cheque you sent on 22/10/18 was NOT cashed:
Send them a complaint that you have not had a reply to your request for a copy of your CCA dated 22/10/18. Repeat your request and enclose a new cheque for £1. Say you will be stopping making any payments to this debt after 30 days if they do not provide you with a copy of the agreement.
Send a copy of this letter to any debt collector you are currently paying but make it clear this is a cc copy and it is addressed to Lloyds.
Clive says
Hello Sara
Thank you for the advice and I will follow this up with the letters of complaint.
On one other note I did receive a letter from Wescot Credit Services stating they had been assigned the debt from the original creditor (Lloyd’s Bank). For collection and as they had been assigned the debt the debt was enforceable.
They have not sent me a credit agreement that I requested from them
What they seem to be saying because they had been assigned the debt they don’t need the original agreement to enforce the debt
Wescot at present return the debt back to Lloyd’s Bank but would like your advice on this question in case it crops up in the near future
Clive
Clive says
Hi Sara
Just a quick up date
At present I still have had no response from Lloyd’s on the CCA Request or for the letter of complaint
Also still not heard anything from Intrum
Thank you for your continuing advice
Clive
Clive says
Hi Sara
Lloyd’s sold one of the debts to Cabot. Lloyd’s have now produced a reconstituted agreement which I complained to them about regards the signatures on the agreement. When they responded to this complaint they also informed me they did not have a copy of the default notice for this debt because they do not hold this information on there systems. Would Cabot be able to enforce the debt without a copy of the default notice
Clive
Janet says
Hi.. So, arrow global have sent me this morning replies for requests of CCA’s ..but its just statements of how much I’ve paid and total still owing, they’ve profusely apologised as they should of sent this information yearly, but they’ve sent nothing in the space of 7 years. They go on to say ‘ this remediation exercise in no way affects the balance, your repayment or obligation to pay..get in touch with Moorcroft who is managing your account’…..
They’ve just sent statements but no proof of CCA’s .. does this mean they haven’t located them yet? Thank you in advance for advice, Janet
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I think you have just received these statements as Arrow are doing a general tidy-up about accounts where they haven’t sent an annual Notice of Statement In Arrears. If that is right, it has nothing to do with your request for your CCAs. When did you ask for the CCAs?
Janet says
I Sara, Just quite recently- mid to end December 18. Guess they are still within the time frame of 12 working days to reply with the CCA’s. These go back from 2003.. I’ve been paying minimum of pounds, until a few months ago when another debt company yet again, took it over, that’s when I’ve decided to go for copies of CCA’s. 2 are credit card debts, one is an large overdraft ( joint names of my ex , which I believe they have not traced)
Not sure how I stand with overdraft either.
Thank you again for your help, Jan
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok well you have to give them at least 40 days, better a couple of months, to think it is reasonably likely that they can’t find the CCAs for the cards.
There is no CCA agreement for an overdraft. But Arrow should produce a detailed statement of account showing how the current balance has arisen. If they can’t do that, you could ask them to write it off but they may not agree.
Janet Smithies says
Hi Sara, I have now had 2 same replies of the 3 letters so far. They ( Moorcroft) have sent the one pound cheques back, one that they never cashed and returned, the other that they wrote themselves to me as had banked the original. The reason they are returning the £1 fee they say is their client no longer require the fee for this service and go on to say once they receive further contact from their client, they will be in touch.
Is this normal practice to have the fee returned?
Obviously it has been more than 12 days now, and I will still act on your 2 month time frame as noted above. Thank you again for your advice. Janet
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It’s common for creditors to return the £1.
Janet Smithies says
Hi Sara, I’ve finally received the 3 letters back from Arrow, ( 3 separate debts from HSBC from 2003, 2 xc/c’s and 1 overdraft)
Same letters, basically saying that ‘they are unable to revert back to the original creditor, Phoenix Recoveries to obtain the documents. They go on to state that it is unenforceable until they re cover the documents, etc etc..and of course the added the debt still exists. They will write again if documents can be found.'”
So, a brilliant result! Thank you so much for your help and advice! X Janet
Sara (Debt Camel) says
excellent!
Miss D says
I’ve had Paypal credit for nearly a year and aside from the initial few uses, I haven’t been able to use it as the option doesn’t show on any websites. Having contacted Paypal several times I get the same unhelpful ‘clear cache, leave it 72hrs, only use your own internet connection’ response that I’ve tried multiple times to no effect.
Essentially I want to close the account AND have it removed from my credit report as I feel it has been mis sold. Is this ever an option and if so, will you advise how I may go about it?
Thanks in advance.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Unless the account shows any problems such as late payments, it isn’t going to help your credit score to have it removed so there isn’t much point in this. Do you still owe any money?
Laura Hill says
Hi Sara
I have a quite a few debts defaulted 3 years ago, I was hoping to send a cca to all of the companies but just checking do I send it the original creditor or the company that bought the debt , and for the £ 1 fee do I send it to the debt collection agency or the original creditor . Sorry for the questions but just wanted to check , I was doing it right .
Thanks
Laura
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You ask the current creditor for the CCA agreement and send them the £1 – not the original creditor.
Laura hill says
Just wondering are debt collector agencies likely to add a ccj if they have the cca agreement, as I have only made token payments for the last year.
Thanks
Laura Hill
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It’s possible – it’s more likley if they think you could pay more than the token amount.
Dan says
Hi Sara
I’ve had Link confirm in writing after I logged a complaint that they are unable to comply with my section 77/78 request and that the debt is unenforceable. The request was made on 18th December and there responce letter dated 22nd January. I think this is good news !!
It just says please contact them as the debt is still collectable and to set up a fair repayment.
I have a default on my credit file that falls off in August this year so I would say I’m in a very strong position to settle this debt for a extremely low amount like a 5% offer ? Which is about £150
Any advice?
Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Yes, that sounds like good news! Would you like to say what the original debt is, as other people may be interested?
I think it’s good to settle this with a very low offer – make it clear that you are making an offer to resolve the debt finally and that you do not intend to make any payments to it if your offer is not accepted.
Dan says
ok thank you will do
Was a barclaycard that was opened in 2010 with the account being sold to link in 2014. The debt has been in a dmp since then. But with the CCA not being provided I have told step change to remove it from my plan.
Jay says
Further to my earlier posts, I sent off requesting CCAs to my 8 creditors. The first one (Cabot for on old Egg Loan taken out in 2006) has replied within a week to say they can’t locate it and agree the debt isn’t enforceable. The balance is 4300 and is not on my credit file as it is over six years since default. What would you recommend? ( I’ll have to wait to see what the other 7 say too)
On a side note Idem replied to say they are looking into my request but have returned my postal order as they don’t charge a fee anymore.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You can just stop paying that one.
Quite a few debt collectors may return your £1s.
Jay says
Would I not be better to off a couple of hundred quid to write it off in full?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I think the chance of an Egg CCA from 2006 reappearing is VERY VERY unlikely. Why don’t you wait and see what happens to the other debts – if the CCA is found for some of them, that £200 may be better put towards settling those debts.
SUECANWIN says
I have to buy out my ex in 2/3 months and need to remortgage.
I am in a DMP
A friend has offered me a chunk of money to do an early settlement.
The DMP started in 2011 and defaulted on all then so all off my Credit File.
The question is this.
Do I do CCA with them all and risk them defaulting again …Ive seen them do
this to others
and wreck their files .. or them getting aggressive again … I would still
pay them even if doing a CCA as I cant risk any muck ups at this stage.
Or
Do I go in with f f settlement offers.
Ive got 20% to offer and as the debt is 60k combined so thats a big chunk of
money offered to help me.
I wont get a remortgage with these debts.
Or should I get my solicitor (a friend) to do it and would
they be more prepared to listen top a solicitor regarding a low offer with an explanation of why?
Oh …Ive been ill for most of the time Ive been in the DMP so they
would mention this too.
What would you advise in my position bearing in mind I need to settle these
debts now otherwise I cant get a mortgage and will loose my house. Got a couple of months.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
“I won’t get a remortgage with these debts.” This may not seem a very helpful reply, but are you sure you will get a mortgage without them? How large is your mortgage now and how much extra equity do you need to release yo pay off the ex? What is your income? do you have any debts that are not in your DMP which you are still paying?
Suecanwin says
Hi there
Ive been to 3 independent Mortgage brokers who have all said the same thing. My income is there its the DMP thats going to prevent me from getting the mortgage.
I have no other debts outside the DMP and as they all defaulted years ago they have dropped off from my credit file which is clean a a whistle.
The equity is there to pay back my friend and to be able to pay off my ex. But I cant get to the equity at the moment. Ive looked at every way possible for the last 4 months and the DMP thwarts every solution. The bottom line is do I do CCA’s first and then very quickly go in with F &F offers – or will I get a black mark again on my clean credit file for going down the CCA route. (if I continue to pay the DMP till I succeed with FF offers would this prevent this)
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Do your mortgage brokers think you will get a mortgage if your DMP has only recently stopped? Because lenders normally ask for 3-6 months bank statements so they will be able to see the DMP for a while even after it has finished?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Also how firm is this 2/3 month date?
How many debts are there in your DMP?
Are they all consumer credit type debts eg loans, credit cards, overdrafts?
Are any of them a very large part of the 60k?
Suecanwin says
‘The only downside to asking for a CCA agreement is that if the creditor finds it, they may then decide to go to court for a CCJ.’
….would this CCJ happen if you are still paying the monthly DMP payment after the CCA request …or is this statement above made if payment is stopped completely?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It is a warning that it could happen even if DMP payments are continuing.
BUT that isn’t likely unless the lender thinks that the DMPs payments are too low so you should be paying more, eg if you have been asked to supply an income & expenditure statement and you have refused.
It is likely to happen if someone isn’t making any payments.
Chris says
I currently on a DMP since 2006. I wish I had found this page sooner.
My debts were taken out in 2003 – 2005 eventually defaulted in 2006. All debts are now off the credit file. I have sent a CCA request to Cabot Financial (waiting to hear back) it was an old Egg loan. I have 2 accounts with Westcot which was previous Lloyds. I have since made an offer (without CCA which i should of done 1st). They rejected. I based this on the amount of money paid on this plan since 2006 and minus this off the starting balance with the DMP.
Reason why Im not sure to CCA because I dont know how they made the balance up, I had a credit card, Loan and Overdraft with them. I know Overdrafts you cannot CCA request on them.
Im not denying what i owe them but want to end the DMP early somehow i have another 5 1/2 years left to pay.
What would you do in this situation?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You could just send Westcot a letter saying you would like a copy of the CCA agreements for all of your debts and see what comes back.
Also have you checked to see if there was any PPI to reclaim on any of these debts? Egg loans, Lloyds loans and lloyds credit cards from that sort of date very often had PPI. That can be a LOT of money.
Chris says
Ive already done a PPI claim on those debts but was only 1750 that was reduced off the balances.
I did go back to Westcot and asked them to provide me with balances at date of 1st missed payment how much has been added as charges. I think I may of gone wrong direction for now but see what comes back.
If they wont be forthcoming could I go down the route of Subject Access Request considering that I no longer have to pay a fee for this service?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No, go back to Westcot now and ask for the CCA agreements. This is in addition to what you have asked before for the balances.
Asking for a SAR won’t help and just wastes time. They don’t have to get the CCA agreement if you just ask for a SAR, you will get a stack of paperwork but not be any further forward.
Baz says
I have limited chance to offer Cabot settlement on 2 very old debts. One originally was unsecured but later secured on house as 2nd charge by a subsequent owner of the debt (Equidebt). Other is old CCJ (also Equidebt). About 12k, and 6k. I feel sure original agreement cannot be found. When Equidebt in admin they offered me settlement @ 10%, I can find proof of this offer, duo’s only proof of earlier 20% offer on secured debt. Cabot then took over Equidebt in 2013. My questions are: reasonably could I expected 10% offers to be accepted now, which represent my potential capability? Ref secured debt, if no settlement done, could I transfer house to disabled adult children that need accommodation either before my death or by provision afterwards without them having a forced sale by Cabot? My aim is to settle with Cabot, but I feel it’s useful to know all-round legal stance on future house position prior to starting debate with them.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
“I have limited chance to offer Cabot settlement on 2 very old debts.” do you mean someone has offered you some money? or that Cabot have made you an offer?
“I feel sure original agreement cannot be found.” that won’t help you. Once there is a CCJ, it doesn’t matter if the CCA agreement can’t be found.
“could I expected 10% offers to be accepted now, which represent my potential capability? ” it’s pretty low for a secured debt, I wouldn’t say it’s impossible but I am not sure it is likely.
“Ref secured debt, if no settlement done, could I transfer house to disabled adult children that need accommodation either before my death or by provision afterwards without them having a forced sale by Cabot?” No you can’t. Talk to National Debtline on 0808 808 4000 about this and about your options – they will explain.
Baz says
Thank you Sara. Family member has offered monetary help – they can manage to help if offer is similar to the old one. Is there a bottom-line percentage for a secured debt you might kindly suggest?
should I only approach them initially about the secured debt including pledging all that I can capably raise to that and that alone?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I’m not saying 10% is impossible. If that is all the family member can manage, then that is all you can offer. There are no rules about minimum acceptable amounts.
the CCJ that has not been secured – how old is this CCJ? Are you making any payments to it? If no, when did you last make a payment to it?
Baz says
CCJ is very old, probably at least ten, no payments made in prob 15 yrs.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
In that case the creditor may not be able to enforce the CCJ without permission of the court, which would rarely be granted. I suggest you talk to National Debtline about this on 0808 898 4000. If they think that the CCJ is very unlikely to be enforceable, then you could offer all the available money to settle the secured CCJ – talk to ND about this too.
Baz says
Thank you Sara, I feel you have given me crucially helpful advice.
The secured debt was probably time-barred when it was applied as I think was very old CCJ with 7/8 of no creditor contact and I know for certain original paperwork could not be found.
Which I hasten to say I only mention to provide background that I had chances to avoid but was advised against my instinct not to persue those routes – I of course realise it’s too late by miles now!
But you have given me hope to try and sort it, thank you so much.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Yes it is way too late. I know it must be always there like a sore that never heals, but you need to try to forget it and do your best with the current situation. Do talk to national debtline – take good advice at the moment!
Baz says
Thank you! Presume not advisable to telephone with settlement offer, or is that ok?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No, put it in writing and be clear where the money is coming from and that it is only available if it is accepted to settle the debt.
Baz says
Hi Sara,
Have had initial response, want me to fill in in/outgoing form, doesn’t seem applicable when money from family member but I suppose I can understand it, and they also want proof of health problems.
Just wondered whether I should be aware of anything. Two thoughts occur: my mortgage is past the original term and I have an extended arrangement to pay off capital which already uses all up my monthly capability (as the bank calculate); wonder whether they have firstly noted in file and now maybe have hopes the other debt ie the old smaller CCJ could be serviced.
Kind regards,
Baz
Rob says
Hi,
I received then for following response from the Moneyshop (below). Does this mean they can’t produce the CCA I requested and the debts are unenforceable?
Thank you for your email.
The Statement of Accounts that you have received are for online loan, therefore there are no ‘signed’ agreements for this. The Nexus account is also an online loan however the loan agreements for this are no longer available due to the system being historic. Please find attached Additional Information fact sheet for more information.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
These are two money shop loans? how old are they? Did you send them a request for the CCA using the wording suggested in the article above? did you send them £1 with each request?
Rob says
Thanks for the response.
It’s one loan that rolled over. I initially contacted them by phone and was instructed they no longer charge £1 for CCA requests and they could be done via email.
I just checked loan statement and it states a default date of the 12/01/2013 but on my credit file it states default 02/06/2013…. should I request to have this amended?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Did you use the specific CCA Act Section 75-77 wording? Or just write something vague and ask for a copy of your signed agreement?
Did you take out this loan online or in a branch?
Why are you asking for this – it is normally pretty pointless asking a lender to produce the CCA agreement – this only tends to work when you are asking a debt collector?
Are they trying to sue you? or is a debt collector try to sue you?
what is the reference to nexus?
Sam says
I had an account with vodafone in 2015 that defaulted. The debt was sold to lucas and they contacted me recently with a 30% discount settlement offer- I asked them for a CCA as advised above.
They replied with following:
In regards to your account, you have requested that we supply you with a copy of the agreement for the account. However, as this account is a service agreement and not a credit agreement. As such, there is no statutory requirement to complete and sign any such ‘Agreement’ in order to obtain an account of this nature.
As you are probably aware, accounts of this type can be obtained by telephone, over the internet and by mail order and therefore, if no signed contract ever existed then it cannot be provided. The terms and conditions of telecommunications contracts are considered binding upon insertion of the SIM card and the requesting of service that is implicit in doing this, evidenced by phone usage costs, which forms part of the outstanding balance that we are seeking to recover. However, we have made a request to our client for a copy of your statement of account.
Does this mean that I should take their offer in this case?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It is common for mobile debts to not be covered by the CCA – that is why the article above says “For credit cards, catalogues and most loans, the debt collector has to be able to supply you with a copy of your Consumer Credit Act agreement if you ask for it. ”
Can you afford to settle at 70%? Don’t borrow any money to do this as this debt is now frozen so don’t exchange it for one where you are paying interest.
Sam says
I cannot afford 70% but is it possible for them to go and get a CCJ even though it is frozen and is a telecom debt? In which case I should not ask for a CCA and just try and settle asap?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
There is no CCA to ask for. they aren’t lying, a CCA agreement is not relevant for most mobile debts.
If you can’t afford 70% but could afford a smaller amount, you could offer that. Otherwise ask to make a monthly payment arrangement that you can afford. Most debt collectors won’t bother to try to get a CCJ if you are making monthly payments.
john says
hi, i have had a letter from pra,
it was for a loan from natwest, 2008, we were paying for the loan, but the wife was diagnosed with cancer, money then went very tight, we arranged reduced payments and have been paying since then, natwest defaulted the loan and that has come off my credit file. They have sold the loan to pra.
i have ask pra for a cca agreement and have said they cant find it and its unenforceable, i have stopped paying, so what is there next move, keep asking and sending letters, do i sit back for a couple of months and make a offer, or just forget about it till they send me what i asked for..
tankyou
Sara (Debt Camel) says
it’s up to you. You could make a VERY low F&F offer or just ignore it. They may send you the odd letter about it but these letters should always say the debt is unenforceable and there should not be too many of them.
john says
very helpful, thankyou Sara
Doug says
Im in a similar position position with PRA. Old Barclays loan sold onto them a few years ago, and have been paying them as part of a DMP. Long story short I made a CCA request and they confirmed that the loan was unenforceable. So with advice from here I made an offer of 5% of the debt as a full and final settlement. They wrote back and said they would only accept 90%.
I have now paid off the other debts on my DMP and my last payment will be this month. Im surprised that PRA did not accept the offer – assume I will now just get pestering letters or the debt will be sold on to another debt collection agency.
Either way im now going to ignore all correspondence from them.
Walt says
Hi. I have 5 credit card debts totalling £35,000. I wrote to them all last July 2018 following advice from Citizens Advice and reduced my payments to £1.00 per month. They all agreed to do this. One of them has sold the debt to a DCA. My brother has offered me a cash sum which would allow me to pay about 15% of the total debt and I am considering making a full and final offer to them. However after reading the thread I wonder if it is worth asking for CCA’S for them first. All the credit cards have been with me for at least 30 years plus. All off them have been paid in full over the years and then allowed to build up again. I am 75 years old and only have income from the state ankh a small private pension so my circumstances are not going to improve. Any thought and input would be appreciated.
Walt
Sara (Debt Camel) says
“All the credit cards have been with me for at least 30 years plus.” In that case it is definitely worth asking the debt collector for the CCA. And if they can’t produce it, reduce the offer to 5%
But can I asking what your housing situation is? Do you own your house, private renting or social renting?
Walt says
Thanks Sara.
Social housing.
What about the credit cards and CCA?
Walter Harper says
Hi Sara.
Wrote to Moorcroft asking for CCA and got the following reply.
We can confirm that we have requested the relevant documentation from our client and will forward it to you when it is received. We must also stress that we are not seeking to enforce an agreement and have only asked that payment is made towards a debt that is outstanding by way of an affordable replayment plan. However, if you believe we are unable to ask that your account is repaid in this manner please provide us with specific details so the client can address any specific concerns that you may have.
In the meantime we believe that it may be of assistance to all parties if we also take this oppportunity to ensure that any potential areas of dispute are addressed prior to any possible further action or investigatio.n.
Please could you provide this information by return as this will ensure that all possible areas of dispute are identified as quickly as possible thereby minimising potential costs and delays.
What action should I take now.
Thanks
Walt.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you reply that you are 75 years old, have a small pension, no assets, are living in social housing and have about £35,000 in debts. You have no prospect of repaying your debts and you are finding it stressful so if the CCA can be produced you will be considering bankruptcy.
Don’t mention offering a settlement amount at the moment. Let’s see if they have the CCA agreement first!
gareth says
Sara
I followed this advice and sent out letters to 6 creditors. The first response was a beautiful letter from NCO Europe just saying the account is now closed and here is the £1 cheque for over payment on the account (that i sent with the initial letter). Wonderful but too good to be true? Maybe. A week following the letter i am now getting phone calls from NCO saying the letter was sent in human error and the account is very much active! Its a faff as I have contacted Payplan to remove NCO from my monthly repayments. NCO have yet to locate the original credit agreement. Any advice?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
oh dear. Who was the original lender for this debt and how old was the account?
gareth says
Original lender was Littlewoods back in 2011.
Then Arrow Global and later NCO
Shezza says
I have an unsecured loan with NRAM and have been making partial payments through a DMP arranged by payplan, its 8 years now. NRAM refuses to put my account in default and says there is an agreement in place, so no default should be recorded. The FOC agrees :-/
On another note, I have offered F&F to all my creditors and they were rejected. So I am in the process of asking for CCAs. the problem is, I can’t remember which of those accounts were overdrafts. Would it matter if CCAs were asked for all of them? My debt is a combination of overdrafts and credit cards, apart from the NRAM loan already mentioned. Any advice would be appreciated. thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
“Would it matter if CCAs were asked for all of them?” no – you will just be told the CCA isn’t relevant for some of them. you can still ask for a statement of account showing how the current balance has been arrived at for an overdraft.
Carl says
Hello, a relative of mine has 4 creditors from 2002 that have all defaulted and fallen off her credit file years ago. She has been maintaining reduced payments via a DMP from around 2002 until now and has reduced the amount from 48k to 16k. CCA requests have been made recently and all of the DCAs have failed to provide documentation and have stated in writing that the debts are therefore unenforceable but they are still asking her to continue making payments to clear the accounts. Should she just cancel the DMP and perhaps offer a minimal full and final settlement of around 5% which I think she could just about afford ? Many thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
There is no reason for her to carry on making payments here. She shouldn’t stretch to offer more than she can really afford as a F&F – she can literally stop paying.
Carl says
That’s great, I will let her know. In your experience, do the DCAs usually keep asking for payment, they haven’t got a phone number but do have her address, she is a widow and lives alone so I’d hate to think she will be intimidated by them making home visits and sending loads of letters. The creditors are 2 x Cabot (old Egg accounts), NCO and Robinson Way. Many thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
They certainly aren’t going to make a home visit – think what it would cost them! If she gets more than the odd letter, help her put in a letter of complaint.
Zoe says
Hi Sara,
Back in 2014 I started to fall behind on payments to my HSBC credit card until finally I was defaulted in August 2014 and started a payment scheme of £50 a month through Robinson Way.
In between Christmas and new year I received a letter from RW saying my payments had stoped and I had 7 days to respond. Because of the time of year the 7 days had already expired, however I checked with my bank who advised when RW had set up the DD they added an end date. I went back to RW who said not their problem the debt has gone back to HSBC.
They wrote shortly after to say the debt was now with Cabot. I thought I would try the option of asking Cabot to provide a CCA due to the age of the debt. Which they couldn’t and have confirmed the debt is not enforceable. However on my Noddle credit file I note they have amended the original default date with HSBC from August 2014 to April this year. I have contacted them several times about this but I’ve had no response.
Presumably they can’t do this especially if they can’t produce the CCA should they even be defaulting my account. It’s very frustrating as the default would come off next year but now it’s restarted the 6 years all over again. I don’t know where to go from here?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
They should not have done that.
Send Cabot a complaint by emailing customercare@cabotfinancial.com with COMPLAINT as the subject. Tell them to correct the default date back to what it had been. Attached a copy of an old Noddle report showing what it was. If they refuse, send the complaint to the Financial Ombudsman.
Gareth says
Any idea of what happens after 45 days? All the lenders I have sent emails to had sent an initial response (apart from Lowell who acknowledge my request over the phone but refuse to send any dated written correspondence regarding the matter). I worry if I stop paying Lowell they will just default me. Are there any other templates to send after 45 days?
Mohammed says
Hi Sara
I had a credit with mbna got into debt so made arrangement to pay them 1 pound every month which I paid to them,they sold the debt to Idem , who later sold it to Arrow. I still sent the money to mbna up to this day, now have received a letter from drysden solicitors who now taking control on there behalf of Arrow they want I&E. I don’t know what to do, do fill the form as I still have debts, which more important like council tax, water, gas, electric, mortgage please advise.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You are quite right about those other debts being more important, but you can’t ignore these letters.
When did you open the MBNA account?
When did you make an arrangement to pay with them?
When did they sell the debt to Idem?
Do you have any other credit card or loans debts that you have defaulted on or are still paying?
sivan says
hi
Sara
i am Sivan I want your help please, I send 3 creditors , 1 creditors send back my letter and £ 1 pound postal order,
what can I do ?? , other creditor send replay they will find the CCA , they send to original creditors, but time limit 12 days if not find
the CCA within 12 days what we can do ??
thanks for your support for people , your are very kind, God bless you,
thanks again.
Sivan
a
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Some creditors don’t want the £1 any more, but they still have to produce the CCA.
So none of your creditors has yet produced the CCA? But it’s only been a few weeks? You really have to wait a couple of months to feel sure they can’t find it.
John says
Hi
I have an old debt that has recently been purchased by another company, who are now saying they are going to put that debt information back on my credit file, can they do that legally?
The debt was originally on my credit file for six years and has now disappeared and i am paying this new company through a debt management plan but they have insisted they are putting it back on. I have written to the ombudsman to investigate this as i do not think they can reinstate it.
Please can you shed some light on this
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No they can’t. What sort of debt was this?
John says
It was a loan with a company that has now gone into liquidation but this new company purchased the debt from them before this happened.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok, well they can’t add a debt back that already had a default date over 6 years ago.
How long ago did your DMP start?
John says
started in 2009
Janine says
PRA won’t tell me how much they bought my debt with Barclaycard for. I understand they are not legally obliged to, but I don’t see why I should pay them thousands when they only paid Barclaycard hundreds. Can I lawfully withhold payments (putting the money aside of course) until they can prove what I owe them?
A run down of my situation:
In 2013 I applied for A Barclaycard credit card.
First attempt stated there was a system error and to try again later
2nd attempt was the same system error
3rd attempt was the same
4th attempt was the same.
I tried one final time that same evening and the application finally went through.
I essentially only agreed to the terms of one single credit card as my previous credit applications had failed.
Something had gone wrong Barclaycard end and it resulted in me receiving 4 credit cards, all with pretty high limits (plus many limit increases over the next 3 years), along with a letter rejecting my 5th application. (I know I know, I should have sent 3 of them back but I was suffering poor mental health at that time and I was weak when I saw all those cards).
Can I argue my case that I only completely signed a single credit agreement due to their system errors? Or am I stuck with this, even though the error was their end?
Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.
Janine x
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Can I ask for some more background – about what happened after you started using the 4 cards. When did you run into difficulty? Did you ever tell Barclaycard that you had mental health problems? Did they freeze interest?
And about your current situation – does PRA now own the debts for all 4 cards? What do they add up to? And do you have other problem debts as well?
Janine says
Good evening, Sara. Thanks for responding so quickly. Between 2013 & 2016 I “managed” them ok. Paying more than min payments but not much more than min. They kept increasing my limits over the 3 years and I eventually defaulted in April 2016 with a grand total of £23,417.52. I entered into an IVA (now there’s another story, I got ripped off and misled by StepChange). I continued in the IVA until October last year. I did make Barclaycard aware that I was due to have an operation on my hip before going into the IVA and that It had affected by ability to continue payments that I was making. (In my job, that is a red flag for vulnerability but this was never acknowledged).
Since closing the IVA I got in touch with the creditors myself to arrange payments and have been paying over & above what was expected of me, at great detriment to my own social life. I just wanted to clear it.
PRA own all 4 credit card debts, but my point is, I only applied once. Therefore, there can surely only be one single credit agreement. I’m probably way off the mark here, but that’s my way of thinking anyway.
All interest and charges were frozen (I have received a couple of hundred quid back from them as they overcharged apparently).
The debt now stands at £4751.
I just want to add that when my IVA was set up, PRA (passed from Barclaycard) accepted a return of only 76p in the pound. Barclaycard has still not accepted any responsibility for sending me 4 cards when I only applied for one.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Have you ever put in a complaint to Barclaycard about giving you the 4 cards?
Janine says
Indeed I have. They stated that as it was 2013, they can’t comment on what had happened with the system error at that time. I also questioned them on why something like this was not flagged as suspicious. Nobody should even be allowed to apply that many times, on the same day, for 5 credit cards. They were well aware of my wage at the time so surely something must have flagged up.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
OK, but did you complain that the number of cards they gave you were unaffordable? If not, I suggest you get an affordability complaint into Barclaycard asap, because these complaints are easier to win if they are within 6 years when they go to the Ombudsman after 8 weeks with the lender See https://debtcamel.co.uk/refunds-catalogue-credit-card/.
After setting that off, you can ask PRA to produce the CCA agreements for the debts, as the article above suggests. This is completely separate from the affordability complaint. My guess is that there is a separate CCA agreement for each card, but can PRA produce them?
Affordabilty complaint – to Barclaycard.
CCA request – to PRA.
Janine says
I appear ahead of schedule. Done both. Barclaycard is with ombudsman, who say they have all relevant info and will now send to Barclaycard for their response. (Barclaycard wrote one single sentence in their final response, zero acknowledgement of wrong doing). After seeing a post on here a couple of days ago. I got in touch with PRA (who fyi did not ask for any payment and were happy to deal with the request via email) to request CCA. Their very prompt response stated they would need to get in touch with the original creditor as they don’t keep such files.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Excellent – let me know how the FOS case goes as this is unusual!
Janine says
I just would like to add that I asked PRA (as an foi act) what I owed THEM, and made it clear I know they purchase the debt at a very low rate. Their response was that they weren’t obliged to provide that info. Hmmm x
Sara (Debt Camel) says
They aren’t obliged to tell you, you are wasting your time trying to find out. Even if you knew, it wouldn’t help you.
FOIs only apply to government, local government or quasi governmental bodies. Not private companies.
Jane says
Hello, I entered a DMP in 2012 as I was over committed on credit. It was all credit card debt and one overdraft. I checked my credit file and was surprised to find that 5 accounts had dropped off my file. Thanks to the info on here, I have managed to get barclaycard to backdate a default and the final three should be off my file within next few weeks. I am now turning my attention to the CCA’s. some of the credit cards were 25/30 years old and have been passed to different debt agencies many times. My question is, if CCA can’t be produced and debt is unenforceable, how ‘safe’ am I to stop paying? Will I be hounded? Would there be any negative consequences for me? I’ve paid my DMP religiously, these things frighten me! How long will it take for them to stop chasing the debt? Also, what is a reconstituted CA?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
“if CCA can’t be produced and debt is unenforceable, how ‘safe’ am I to stop paying?” you can’t be sued. You may get the odd letter.
“Will I be hounded?” no – if you get texts or phone calls, tell them in writing you only want to receive letters. If you get more letters than you think is reasonable (I would suggest one a year) put in a written complaint.
“Would there be any negative consequences for me?” the only possible negative consequence is if they do find the CCA agreement and then decide to go to court for a CCJ. It’s possible, but it doesn’t seem to happen. If your credit cards are ancient and have been sold several times you have to weigh up the good chance of the debt being unenforceable againt this very small risk.
“How long will it take for them to stop chasing the debt?” After you send the CCA request? If they haven’t found the CCA after 2 month, I would say you are safe to stop paying. You can always restart if they do find it!
“what is a reconstituted CCA?” See 13.1.4 here https://www.handbook.fca.org.uk/handbook/CONC/13/1.html?date=2018-01-03
Helen Scott says
Hi, I requested a CCA on a debt over two years ago, the original lender was never able to produce it and I heard nothing from anyone until last month. The debt has been sold to a new collection agency who are sending letters asking I confirm I live at my address. These are becoming more aggressive in tone. I haven’t responded since I am concerned to do so will restart the ‘clock’ on stature barring. Do I have to confirm I live at my address or can I ignore the letters since the original lender has been unable to provide a CCA so far. The original debt is over 10 years old. thank you!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Reply saying you dispute the debt is yours, the previous debt collector was unable to produce the CCA agreement and you will not be discussing it unless they can produce the CCA agreement.
Matt says
Hello Sara,
I requested the CCAs on my three credit card debts 5 weeks ago via recorded delivery and included £1 postal orders. I have heard back from only one of the collection agencies (Cabot) saying that they have requested the CCA from the original creditor (HSBC) and in the interim the debt is unenforceable. However I have heard nothing back from the other two creditors, Nationwide (dating to 2012) and Link (originally a Barclaycard dating to 2010) – however on my most recent DMP it appears that Nationwide may have deducted the £1 postal order I sent with the CCA from my balance.
i) are Nationwide ‘playing dumb’ to my request by depositing the £1 and not answering? A PPI query sent to them around the same time was responded to within a week.
ii) is Link and Nationwide’s failure to acknowledge the request and state the consequent unenforceability of the debt in the absence of the CCA something I should pursue via a complaint to the Ombudsman?
My main aim is to clear the debts with as low a settlement figure as possible.
Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
What sort of debt was the Nationwide debt?
You can either wait another month or ask them now what is happening – by phone or by putting in a complaint by email. You can’t go to the ombudsman unless you have put in a complaint.
But 5 weeks really isn’t very long. The CCAs may yet turn up.
Matt says
All the debts were credit cards.
I will certainly wait another month or two before proceeding as if CCAs are not available. The situation with Nationwide applying the £1 to my account just caused me a slight worry that they were ignoring the request and wonder if you have come across a similar situation?
I’m about to re-enter university to do a further 4 to 5 years of postgrad, and as such will be in no position to pay any more than token payments; once I graduate (into a notoriously low-paid graduate profession) I will have both undergrad and postgrad loan repayments to make amounting to over 20% on all income over c. 20K. I’m hoping it’s likely to help my case in making offers if I present this information.
Claire says
Hi Sara
My husband and I entered into a debt management plan ( with stepchange/cccs) in 2004 with debts of £70000 to 10 creditors. We have been diligently paying a significant chunk of our salaries ever since and now have an outstanding balance of £22000. In the past 14 yrs I have had breast cancer, 3 x surgical procedures, chemotherapy, radiotherapy and 7 yrs of monthly implants to keep the cancer at bay. Apart from one year when I was off sick i have worked throughout but I’m tired now and want to reduce my working week. This reduction in salary would mean our debt wouldn’t be paid off until past retirement. My brother has agreed to give me £7000 to pay off with a f and f agreement the outstanding balance (approx 30%). We wrote to all 10 debt collection agencies and all rejected our offer and only two making a counter offer of 80%. Having read your previous messages we have sent off requests for cca’s and pra group are the first to respond saying they’re looking for the cca and even if it can’t be found and is unenforceable we have to still pay. I’ve checked out credit record and there hasn’t been any debt registered in it for over 8 yrs. If they can’t find a cca and they reject a repeat f and f offer should we just stop paying and what offer do you think would be appropriate offer if no cca produced? Thank you (apologies for long message)
Sara (Debt Camel) says
“even if it can’t be found and is unenforceable we have to still pay” let me rephrase that. If the CCA can’t be found, the debt is unenforceable and although it legally exists so you can pay it if you want, there is nothing they can do except send the odd letter asking you to pay if you refuse. You don;t “still have to pay” and if you don’t they can’t make you.
If they can’t produce the CCA agreement with a couple of months of you asking, I suggest you stop paying. If you want to make a F&F, then I suggest it should be a low one eg £50.
kim hunter says
Hi I have received a letter from Link with regard to a debt with MBNA which they have said they cannot trace the CCA which I requested.
It says
“We wish to apologise for our delay in supplying the requested documents in regardsto your previous section 77/78 request, as part of the consumer Credit Act 1974. We write further to your request for account documentation under section 77/78 of the Xonsumer Credit Act 1974, Unfortunately the original creditor MBNA Limited have confirmed that they are unable to comply with your request.
although the account is currently unenforceable, the outstanding balance remains collectable and is acceptable for creditors to register and continue the reporting of a defailt. this completes our obligstions under Section 78 of the Act.”
This was originally defaulted in Sept 2012. do I just continue to stop paying it as I have since they said it was unenforcable back in May 2019?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It is unenforceable so there is no need for you to pay it.
It should no longer appear on your credit record and not paying will not cause it to reappear.
gareth says
Quick update – Am having some joy with this. Lowell have written off one agreement worth 3k and Arrow have written off 2k. I still have not received responses off a couple of lenders so will be pursuing them further. Brilliant information Sara – you should be up there with Martin Lewis!
Gary Edwards says
I have two debts with Link Financial of £3308.20 and £6430.24 currently in a DMP. The two debts have been on my credit file since March 2015.
A few days ago Link Financial confirmed that the original creditor Barclaycard PLC are unable to comply with my requests for account documentation under section 77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Link Financial further advise that the account is unenforceable, the outstanding balance remains collectable and it is acceptable for creditors to register and continue the reporting of a default.
Any advice on the way forward? Do I have the right to remove these debts from my credit file? Would you go for a full and final settlement, what would be an acceptable offer?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So the default date with Barclaycard was in March 2015?
Gary Edwards says
Good question, the March 2015 date is when Link Financial took over the debts. However the credit file start dates for these debts are 15/03/2000 and 16/04/1985. I believe Link Financial incorrectly recorded the default date from when they took over the debt and did not record the original default dates from Barclaycard or Mercers. I do not have copies of my credit files going back before Link Financial took over. I have a default notice letter from Mercers for one of the debts preceding Link Financial. Is there a way to get copies of default notices prior to March 2015?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
what date was the default notice letter from Mercer’s? roughly wehn did you stop making the normal payments to these debts?
The aim here is to get Link to backdate the default date to a date which is more than 6 years ago, so the debts promptly drop off your credit record.
Gary Edwards says
The Mercers letter is dated 14 September 2011 for the debt of £3308.20. Unfortunately I cannot find a similar letter for the other Link Financial debt.
However before these debts were taken over by Link Financial, Barclaycard were dealing directly with Payplan as part of a Debt Management Plan. I have emailed Payplan to see if they have any records of default notices issued before Link Financial took over however my Payplan account only shows me details of these debts against Link Financial.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So I suggest you tell Link that Barclaycard had defaulted both debts more than 6 years ago – the fact the Barclaycard debts are not showing on your credit record proves this. And send them the Mercer’s letter as additional evidence.
Gary Edwards says
The oldest letter I can find for the debt of £6430.24 is 23 September 2013 from Barclaycard to Payplan entitled “Reduced Payment Plan Is Expiring”.
gareth says
When did you enter a DMP? As technically the defaults should have started around 3 months after entering a DMP (as per ICO guidelines). I managed to get 3 of my defaults backdated to 2012 with this argument. But getting creditors to accept this fact takes FOREVER. I had to go down the financial ombudsman route (a painful slow process) and it took 14 months. But anyhow my credit rating has gone from very poor to ‘good’ on experian because of this. A MASSIVE THANK YOU to Sara and this website!
Gary Edwards says
The Payplan app shows the first payment as 11-2011 for the DMP
Gary Edwards says
I’ll contact Payplan for the start dates of the debts now with Link Financial as they were originally with Barclaycard/Mercers but this history I cannot see online.
GARETH JONES says
Then your good to go…
The Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) says : “As a general guide, [a default may be recorded] when you are 3 months in arrears, and normally by the time you are 6 months in arrears.
What should the default date for a debt be? · Debt Camel
https://debtcamel.co.uk › debt-default-date
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You could just ask Barclaycard when they defaulted the debts. because PRA has to use that default date. it’s simpler than arging what the default date should have been,
Gary Edwards says
Payplan have confirmed the Barclaycard debts entered the DMP in August 2011.
Gary Edwards says
I will contact Barclaycard regarding the default dates but I wonder as they haven’t provided the consumer credit agreement whether the records still exist.
Jane says
Hi Gary,
I was in the same situation in that Barclaycard did not default my accounts and instead reported them as payment arrangements. Accounts were sold onto PRA who carried on reporting my DMP payments. I actually found default notices that were issued by Mercers in 2012 (by a stroke of luck) but these were never reported on my credit file. Anyway, Long story short, I called Barclaycard who agreed without any persuasion to apply a backdated default and the accounts disappeared from my credit file. I do however, now have an issue with PRA who did remove the information, only to set up three new credit agreements on my file (in replacement of the three defaulted barclaycards) and start reporting on them! I’m in communication with them to try and resolve it. Don’t throw away any documents etc. as you may need them again.
mangus says
Hello, I have requested a CCA copy using the terms that you indicated, Lowell solicitors has provided half of a photocopy of the original CCA but there is only one page and no signature. They also added a letter asking for an offer or they will send a claim form within 30 daysto bring me to court. Can they enforce the debt if there is no signature, and can I complain about sending only an incomplete copy? Can they bring me to court with that kind of document, or without providing a full copy to me? Thank you
Sara (Debt Camel) says
See the section headed “How can you tell if it is right?” in https://debtcamel.co.uk/ask-cca-agreement-for-debt/
Matt says
Hi Sara
I have an outstanding credit debit originally with aqua that has been sold to Lowell finance , it is currently three and half years since it defaulted and almost five years since my last payment . I have not paid anything for almost five years . I am wondering if I ask for a cca will it start the clock again .
Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Yes it probably will. But realistically very few debts get to be statute barred these days.
Matt says
Hi Sara
Thanks for getting back to me, do you have any advice to what I should do .
Thanks
Matt
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Your options are to
1) do nothing and hope the debt becomes statute barred. Then if you get a Letter Before Claim/Action ask for the CCA at that point. Do not ignore letters from solicitors. This option is NOT likely to go well if the debt collector doesn’t have your current address – you may find they have got a CCJ without you seeing the papers.
2) ask for the CCA now and accept you will have to set up a payment arrangement if it is found.
Marc says
Hi
I’ve been on a DMP since 2010; I’ve been reading these threads over the past few months and have just sent off for CCA requests on all my debts. Whilst investigating I have noticed that I was never defaulted by Barclaycard, this debt was passed on to Link financial who started to appear on my credit file from 2015. I called Barclay card, and they stated that they didn’t apply one. I thought an account needed to be defaulted before it can be sold on. However I have seen on the internet that this is not always the case?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Go back to Barclaycard and complain that they should have added one and ask them to correct this. See https://debtcamel.co.uk/debt-default-date/
Gary Edwards says
I have the same issue. Spoke to Barclaycard Payment Solutions Team (Sounds like there in an indian call centre) but getting mixed messages.
On the 6th September their initial response was to just to tell me what their computer screens were telling them. I queried why an earlier Mercers default notice had not been recorded as a default on my credit file. Then my records were looked at in my detail (Lots of being put on hold and internal calls being made within Barclaycard). Barclaycard agreed to alter the default dates to when the debts entered my Debt Management Plan. I was given approximate revised default dates and told it would take 7-8 working days to update their records and to get an exact revised default date.
On the 17th September I spoke again with the Payment Solutions Team but got a completely different story. They cannot confirm the new default date and say the debt is not with them. I explained they need to action the change as the debt was originally with them. They completely ignored our conversation of the 6th September. I was advised that the issue would be discussed with the advisors supervisor and that they would call me back the next day. (They never called back)
Now before I go back to Barclaycard or try complaining directly to Link Financial I will see what that the next update to my credit file shows.
Gary Edwards says
Experian credit file updated today but Link Financial debts remain. I will raise complaints to Link Financial next regarding the default dates as I have little faith in Barclaycard getting their act together.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If Barclaycard have added a default to your debt so it has now dropped off your credit record, then you need to tell Link Financial this and ask then to add the same default date.
Gary Edwards says
The problem is I cannot confirm if Barclaycard added a revised default to the debt as Barclaycard are telling me different stories each time I call them.
Jane says
Gary, I had the same issue with barclaycard. Fortunately I had the default notices for all three accounts from Mercers but they said they didn’t need to see them – I kept them anyway. I explained that the defaults should have been applied and the date. They agreed immediately to remove them from my credit file and also informed PRA group, the debt collectors who did the same. Barclaycard only update credit files once a month (15th I think) so you would need to check after this date and dont forget some of the free credit reports can be up to two months behind. I’m sure barclaycard will backdate defaults but if getting nowhere on the phone, put it in writing to their complaints dept.
Gary Edwards says
I went on to raise complaints with Link Financial. Heard back on one debt after Link spoke to Barclaycard, Barclaycard confirmed a default notice was sent on 06 December 2011, however Barclaycards records do not indicate any default was registered against my account. Link aren’t going to take any further action.
The other compliant I am still waiting for a response on from Link Financial.
My next steps are to raise formal written complaints with Barclaycard, I won’t waste anymore time speaking to their Indian call centre staff who give conflicting advice. If Barclaycard still do not take action I will refer to the matter to the Financial Ombudsman Service.
steve says
I received a letter from Arrow global admitting they have not always complied with CCA in providing statutory notices within the prescribed time scales. Does this admission effect if this debt is enforceable?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Did this letter come out of the blue? Does it say they are going to do anything to put this right?
Is interest being charged on these debts? Interest can’t be charged if the creditor hasn’t sent out the correct notice of Sums In Arrears, but normall interest isn’t charged by a debt collector anyway.
What sort of debts were they?
Jane says
Hi Sara, I sent the £1 postal order and letter to link financial on 9th August. I called them a few weeks later and they said it hadnt been received (I did have proof of delivery) Chased it again in September and they said they’d received the letter and payment on 9th September (a month to reach my account?) I’ve never received anything regarding my request but recently got a statement and it shows £1 credit to my account and next to it ‘sec 77-78 request for CCA’ so they obviously have received it. so today it’s 3 months since I sent the request and apart from that statement, have had nothing else. Should I call them again? or just stop paying? I’m in a DMP with stepchange and balance is c £11k Account dates back to 1990. Thank you
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you tell StepChange to stop paying and also complain to Link as Gary suggests, saying they have not replied to your request for the CCA and that you will restart payments if they provide the CCA.
Gary Edwards says
Raise a complaint by email to complaints@linkfinancial.co.uk and submit the complaint form available at https://www.linkfinancial.eu/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/complaint.pdf
Sam B says
Hi Sara,
Hoping you can help as I’m struggling to decide how to move forward. I have 2 outstanding debts with Link that they took over in 2017 as part of a DMP I started in 2016. Them being the only 2 that didn’t accept final settlements when paying off my DMP a few months ago. One account claims c. £400; one c. £600.
They can’t get the CCAs from NewDay. However, they just won’t accept anything less than 90%, having tried to settle 4 times already.
I paid 2 token £1 payments in Aug & Sept then stopped paying in Oct. Anyway I’ve now had a letter before action, with no mention of the account being unenforceable (I’m complaining about that, don’t worry) and that they’re going to default to the account if I don’t settle arrears by 24/11. It turns out it’s always been recording it as up to date on my file.
We’re much better off nowadays and looking to start getting a property next year, so I’m reluctant to see my record tank again just as I’ve started to rebuild it after all this time.
Part of me wants to just grasp the nettle and find a way to pay the lot off before the 24th – not impossible but not ideal either. However, morally, I don’t want Link getting an easy win either.
Do I carry on trying to get a low settlement out of them? Do I just pay up if I want to carry on repairing my credit? Is there a better option?
Any help really appreciated.
Thanks
Sam
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You must use the Reply Form to ask Link to send you the CCA information. Don’t just put in a separate complaint.
To get a mortgage, you need all problem debts to have been settled. Preferably 12 months or more before the mortgage application. but if these debts are recorded as “up to date” then the best thing from the point of getting a mortgage is o repay them
There is no way to make Link accept a low settlement amount.
You could ask New Day to add a default to your credit record back in 2016 – but even if they agree to do this, the debt won’t fall off your credit record before 2022 and before then it makes your credit record worse – so not a good move if you want a mortgage before then.
Paul says
Hi,
Could someone help. I wrote to 1st credit (now intrum) on 17th September 2014 to ask for a copy of CCA from a Lloyds TSB account. They failed to provide so I followed up on the 14th November to put the account into dispute to which they replied on 19th November 2014 to say that they were unable to provide as they were reliant on L/TSB providing the document. They stated at this point the debt is unenforceable and account was on hold. I heard no more until 10/10/19 with a notice of assignment letter from Lloyds Bank but no credit Agreement? Does this suffice?
Any help welcome as looking to get a mortgage next year and don’t want this to affect it.
Do I just send the CCA template letter again?
Regards
Paul
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The letter of assignment is irrelevant, if Intrum can’t produce the CCA the debt is unenforceable.
Don’t ask again for the CCA. It’s their job to find it, you don’t have to keep asking them to provide it.
Have they suggested that the debt is enforceable at all? Is this debt showing on your credit record? Have you stopped making payments to it?
Paul says
The last two Letters were an introduction letter to say they had taken over the account (which they have sent previously) and then an annual statement but doesn’t state it’s enforceable. It fell off credit file a year or so ago and I have not made any payments. So do I just ignore it as I get at least a letter or text message every other day? Cheers Paul
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Are the letters or text messages suggesting you should set up a payment arrangement?
Paul says
Yes it says in letter “Please note that the full outstanding balance is now due and can be paid using one of the options overleaf. If you need to contact us to agree repayment terms then please note we will assess the affordability of you offer and consider whether it is reasonable based on circumstances. If we do not hear from you or receive payment shortly then you will be contacted by one of our customer support representatives about repayment of your account. Any further communication and payments should be addressed to intrum UK (formally 1st credit)”
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you send them a formal Complaint by emailing them at compliance.uk@intrum.com.
Saying that CONC 13.1.6 says that “The firm should, in any request for payment or communication relating to a payment (other than a statement issued in accordance with the CCA or regulations made under it which does not constitute or contain a request for payment) in such cases, make clear to the customer that although the debt remains outstanding it is unenforceable.” So you are surprised to be getting letters and texts about this debt which so not mention that the debt is – as they have previously said – unenforceable. Say you want these misleading communications to stop.
Also say you are being sent an unreasonable number of text messages about this unenforceable debt. Point out the CSA code of conduct to which they subscribe says in 2q “Make contact at reasonable times and at reasonable intervals, taking into consideration the reasonable wishes of the customer, which may include the preferred method of communication. “.
Say you no longer wish to receive any texts or phone calls about this unenforceable debt.
Paul says
Thanks Sara, I’ll get that sent over to them. I appreciate your help.
PH says
I have a DMP from 2007 £32k owing.Want to partially settle all debts with an inheritance.Csnt pay in full but desperately want this DMP finished.Will this affect me getting a mortgage? I want to get one in next few months? Thanks.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
How many of the debts are showing on your credit record?
Also what sort of debt were they – loans? credit cards? overdrafts?
PH says
Ah,I haven’t looked to see if they are on credit report…I will.They are mixture of bank loans, credit cards.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Right, well check your credit reports for all three credit reference agencies. See https://debtcamel.co.uk/best-way-to-check-credit-score/ for how to do this for free.
If a debt isn’t on there, making a partial settlement will not even be visible to a future mortgage lender.
But also if a debt isn’t on there, read the article above and ask the debt collector (not the original lenders) to produce the CCA for the debt. Use the template suggested and send £1 with each request. For debts before 2007 some of them – possibly a lot – won’t be able to find the agreement and you can stop paying them as the debt is unenforceable in court. This doesn’t work for overdrafts or debts such as utility bills.
PM says
Thanks so much Sara.I will go through each report in depth before I part with any inheritance ! x
PH says
I checked the three reports & only three of 10 debts are on there .Will these other debts have dropped off or are they just not visible on each site? I remember my Noddle report had the full history of debts on it….
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Any debt which is defaulted more than 6 years ago will have dropped off. These are the debts you can stop paying if they can’t produce the CCA agreement.
The three remaining debts, read https://debtcamel.co.uk/debt-default-date/ and see if you can argue these should have had a default added back in 2007 or 2008. Who were the original creditors?
Natasha says
Hi,
I have had my first letters back saying the debt is unenforceable as no CCA can be found, they want me to phone them, is this a bad idea? Am i better to keep everything in writing, I am going to offer them 5%, is there a good sample letter to use in this instance, i was looking at the FF one and it didn’t quite make sense for my situation? Thanks in advance
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I assume this debt is either not on your credit record or it has already been marked as defaulted.
You can phone them if you want. If they say they want you to set up a payment arrangement, say you will be taking debt advice on your whole situation in a month or two and until then you won’t be paying them anything as the debt is unenforceable.
Then wait and see how the other ones go before offering them any money. Just stop paying. They will then be more likely to accept a low offer if they realise you aren’t going to carry on giving them more money.
Natasha says
Sorry, i didn’t reply on the right thread! Thanks, this thread has been amazing, glad i found this before offering. They actually never defaulted on the original debt but it was over 10 years ago now so not on my record anymore, I just ended up in a DMP before they defaulted, does this mean they can still default? That is my worry!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
They must have added a default or it would still be on your credit record. As it isn’t, it can’t reappear.
jones says
Yeah this is great advice. Thanks to Sara I managed to get 15k worth of debt down to
£6k because the debts were defaulted/dropped off, sold on and (apart from one lender) –
the credit agreements could not be found. Most of the lenders were willing to haggle and
others just wrote it off!
I took a small loan out to repay the £6k and I basically paid that loan off over xmas. I have
one default lingering until July this year and then its all done – clean!
Its been a long process, particularly getting the financial ombudsman to force some of the
lenders into changing the date of defaults so they dropped off sooner….And negotiating a
full and final settlement took 6-8 months all together
But its done now and again, thank you to Sara for the advice
PM says
Hi Jones What a great result ! I am in similar position…Can I please ask what you asked creditors on your DMP? Just for a CCA? I’m just about to do this myself but a bit unsure of what to do.Thanks ☺️
jones says
I just followed the advice on here and asked for a copy of the original credit agreement. Get down the post office
asap for those £1 postal orders and set up a spread sheet to keep track of all the dates/responses/updates on each
creditor as it takes time and a lot of chasing to get a good result
Jane says
Hi Jones,
So far I have 4 out of 8 of my creditors come back and say that the debts are unenforceable. One is enforceable and waiting to hear from other three.
I’m still paying all of mine through a DMP but can I ask, had you stopped paying the unenforceable debts before you settled them?
Thanks
jones says
No I continued paying all the debts until I reached a point where I could make full and finals. Then once I got the
‘consolidation loan’ I paid off the main ones (who provided original credit agreements) and then ended the DMP. The
lenders which created the biggest fuss and refused to haggle with full and finals were the ones with small amounts
owed – £800 each. I have not heard back from them since cancelling the DMP
My only one outstanding is Barclays which was an overdraft with £1200 outstanding. I phoned them up before Christmas
and they confirmed they defaulted me back in 2012 and they can’t really do much else……Bit of a grey area though as
its an overdraft – Sara any ideas?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
He may have found it easier to get settlement offers agreed if he had!
Natasha says
Thanks, this thread has been amazing, glad i found this before offering. They actually never defaulted on the original debt but it was over 10 years ago now so not on my record anymore, I just ended up in a DMP before they defaulted, does this mean they can still default? That is my worry!
Jane says
Hi Jones,
So far I have 4 out of 8 of my creditors come back and say that the debts are unenforceable. One is enforceable and waiting to hear from other three.
I’m still paying all of mine through a DMP but can I ask, had you stopped paying the unenforceable debts before you settled them?
Thanks