A reader asked:
I have a Debt Management Plan where I still owe 17k to 10 creditors. I have been paying for ten years at £150 a month, so it will end in about 8 years. Most of the debts have gone from my credit record but a few are marked as “on a DMP”.
I want to pay off the debts and improve my credit rating. I have been offered about 7k by a relative, so I could offer all my DMP creditors around 40%. How would settlements affect my credit rating? Is it worth me finding out if the debts are actually enforceable?
It’s a great idea to try to end a long-running Debt Management Plan (DMP).
I have already looked at offering settlements where the DMP had only been running a few years. And this Guide to F&Fs looks at the how to make a good full and final settlement offer to a creditor.
But this reader’s case is different:
- older debts have different options as it may be that the debts are unenforceable;
- there is the added complication of the different way his DMP is showing on his credit record.
Are the debts enforceable?
It’s best to do this before you offer a settlement.
For credit cards, catalogues and most loans, the debt collector has to be able to supply you with a copy of your Consumer Credit Act agreement if you ask for it. See How to ask for a CCA agreement, which looks at how to do this and when you should do it. It doesn’t apply to overdrafts, utility or mobile bills.
How likely is this to work?
This reader’s accounts are at least ten years old. It is likely that at least some of his current creditors may be unable to produce the CCA agreement:
- the older a debt is the less likely it is that it can be found;
- it is also harder to find if the debt has been sold to a debt collector, who usually has to ask the original creditor for it.
If it can’t be found
If the creditor can’t produce the CCA agreement for your debt, it is unenforceable.
I would allow the debt collector a couple of months before deciding that they aren’t going to be able to find it. Three if you are feeling nervous.
The debt is still legal, it stays on your credit record and the creditor can ask you to pay it … but they can’t make you by taking you to court. The regulator says they have to explain this to you – they aren’t allowed to pretend you do have to pay it.
In this case you can simply stop paying the debt – or tell your DMP firm to stop paying it, explaining why.
There is a small chance that the CCA agreement could be found later. This seems to be rare – if the debt collector hasn’t found in in the first few months the chances of it turning up later seem very low! To prevent that being a problem, and to stop the odd polite letter, you may decide to offer them a really low settlement amount, say 5%.
But if you want to offer this low amount to tidy up the loose end, then it is best to stop paying the debt first for a couple of months. Then the creditor will realise you are serious about not carrying on paying them. And then make your low offer. If they reject it, just say then you won’t be paying them anything.
This is why it’s worth asking for the CCA agreement before making a good settlement offer. By clearing out of the way any unenforceable debts you will have more money left to settle the others.
When the CCA agreement is produced
If you aren’t sure that what you have been sent is a proper CCA, read “How can you tell if it’s right” in the main article on CCAs.
If the creditor produces the CCA agreement, then the reader can just make the full and final settlement offer of 40% that was planned. That is a very good offer for a debt that old if only low payments are being made. He can help ensure the offer is accepted by:
- explaining that the money is coming from a relative if it will help to settle the debt; and
- enclosing an income and expenditure statement showing that he can’t afford to increase his monthly payment.
The only downside to asking for a CCA agreement is that if the creditor finds it, they may then decide to go to court for a CCJ. But that would be pretty unusual if you are making them a good settlement offer!
Effect on your credit score
Settling debts doesn’t improve your credit rating. People often don’t believe that, it sounds so odd. In practice settling the debts makes some lenders much more likely to give you more credit and it’s vital if you want a mortgage in the next few years. But that headline credit score number will not change.
Where a debt already has a default date, it is going to disappear 6 years after that date and making a full and final settlement offer won’t change that. In this readers case the debts have already gone – they will not reappear.
For debts with an arrangement to pay marker and no default date, settling the debts will mean they drop off 6 years after the settlement.
It is a pity all the debts weren’t defaulted originally – the reader should ask the original creditor (not the current debt collector that owns the debt) to add a default to the record back before it was sold.
If that is done – and some creditors do agree easily – that will remove the debt sooner and improve the credit rating. But do this after asking for the CCA agreement and sorting out the F&Fs – it’s too complicated to try to do this all at once.
Do F&Fs make it harder to get a mortgage?
How does a DMP affect your credit score?
Do I have to pay a debt not on my credit file?
Bob says
Hi Sara,
I am in the process of trying to settle two debts from pre 2006. They are still with the original lenders so no point asking for the CCA. Santander have replied requesting I & E, where the money is coming from, details of other debts including balances, and what offers have been made to them. The others cannot produce the CCA so I am treating them differently as per your advice on this website. Can I reply to say the settlement offer is for the Santander debt only and how/should I explain the others?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Have you asked for the CCA for Santander? For very old accounts this can sometimes be worth doping.
You can say you aren’t making offers to unenforceable debts, I don’t see any reason to give Santander the details of them
Steve says
Hi Sara
Just got a CCA letter from the PRA group after 6 months
Letter looks suspicious photo copy knock up with terms and conditions on all pages
Page 1 has my name and address at the top and bottom right has a tick in the box with the date 1/09/10
There is no mention of any amount of credit or a credit limit
They have also sent a letter saying if I pay now they will give me a 10% discount on the amount I owe
which seems strange if they have found the CCA
Should I challange this CCA or is this correct
Regards
Steve
Sara (Debt Camel) says
See the article above for who to talk to if you are not sure you have been sent a correct CCA – I don’t give an opinion on this.
PRA will probably have paid less than 10p in the £ for this debt – they will be delighted to settle it at 90%.
Helen G says
Hi Sara
Following Steves comments I had two accounts with PRA and requested CCA’s. One account turned out to be an overdraft and the other account the CCA could not be found. Previously and over a period of years I had offered settlements all of which were refused. The one lesson I have learnt is “Patience”. i.e. just because I would like to settle the accounts it did not mean that PRA were on the same page.
When the CCA could not be provided and redacted copies were not put up I offered 5% in full and final settlement of both accounts which was accepted fairly soon after my offer. Hope this helps.
Helen G
Nick says
So just to be clear, if the debt defaulted more than six years ago and has already dropped off my credit record, there is nothing that PRA can report to credit agencies that will make the debt reappear if I choose to stop paying when they have failed to produce the CCA? Or if we agree a partial settlement?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Correct.
Harriet S says
Hi,
Could I check my understanding on something please? I have an account that has defaulted over 5 years ago, I have been making repayments every month for the whole time, the last 3 years with PRA – who seem happy with my monthly payment. Once the default drops off my credit report, does the unsecured lending then class as ‘unenforceable’? And if they tried to threaten a CCJ before the six years are up, am I then okay to do a CCA request!?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Once the default drops off my credit report, does the unsecured lending then class as ‘unenforceable’?
No – many debts are enforceable even though they do not show on your credit record: https://debtcamel.co.uk/debt-not-on-my-credit-file/.
You have been making payments to this debt – it will never become statute barred.
You can ask for a copy of the CCA – unfortunately these are normally pretty simple to produce for payday loans, so you should not exp[ect there is a good chance this will work.
James Burry says
I just found out that a old welcome debt of which was sold to Cabot isn’t secured or a ccj I’ve been paying 1 per month since 2007. I was under the impression that the the loan was secured where do I stand. They also can’t provide me with the cca details as well
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Cabot has said they cannot provide the CCA and that the debt is unenforceable?
Presumably this no longer shows on your credit record?
Did Cabot previously say that it was secured or that there was a CCJ?
James Burry says
Hi there is no charging order on land registry no ccj. And yes Cabot have said the debt is unforceble however they said they can still chase the debt. Do I have to pay
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If Cabot have said it is unenforceable, then no, you don’t. Just tell them you will not be making payments. They may occasionally ask you to pay – every time they should tell you the debt is unenforceable. They will probably stop after a while!
EnKay says
Hi Sara,
Hope you are well.
I would appreciate if you could provide a response to my situation.
I have some debts, 4 of which are currently owned by LINK (purchased from the original creditors; unsecured loan and credit cards).
All debts have fallen off from my credit reports.
LINK manages 3 of those themselves, Moorcroft manages 1 on behalf of LINK.
I have recently sent CCA requests to LINK for all.
LINK came back with responses for 2 of them saying “the original creditor has confirmed that they are unable to comply with your request within the 12-day initial time frame. Although the account is unenforceable the outstanding balance remains collectable and it is acceptable for creditors to register and continue the reporting of a default”.
I know from your previous posts that the default will not reappear on my credit report.
My query is – should I simply stop paying (I manage the DMP myself), or do I need to send them a letter first to say that I will not be paying unless a CCA is provided?
Also, if they do manage to find the CCA, will they contact me first for a payment or will they go for a CCJ before notifying me?
Many thanks for your time.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If you decide to stop paying, you should definitely tell them why.
But this is very soon. The CCA may well turn up. You can stop paying now if you want, or you could just wait a couple of months, by which point it is less likely the CCA will turn up.
if they find the CCA, they should tell you. And you can then start paying again. Debt collectors don’t actually want the bother and cost of going to court unless people won’t pay.
EnKay says
Thank you for your quick response.
Is there any formal letter format I should follow to tell them I am not going to pay?
Should I tell both Moorcroft and LINK (for the account managed by Moorcroft for LINK)?
Many thanks.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No, just say as the debt is unenforceable, you will not be making any payments and that you will resume if they do produce the CCA. I would tell them both.
Chris says
Wow here’s an interesting one, I asked for my CCA from Cabot in March 2021, they replied, finally after 13 months April 2022, they have finally found it. 13 MONTHS
What can I do? Is there a time limit on the request and finding the CCA?
Help please
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Well it is certainly unusual, but no, there is no time limit. Unless you think the CCA doesn’t look right, you need to make plans to start repaying the debt, if that is affordable.
Chris says
Hi Sara,
Thanks again, here’s another surprise move by the DCA they have admitted fault for the delays, and are now accepting 5% to close the accounts… I am jumping at the chance to rid myself of these two accounts.
Chris
Sara (Debt Camel) says
oh! good!
Chris says
Hi
Both of those are now settled. Hurrah. That was with Cabot.
Now I have a problem with Pra Group requested my CCA …. I received a reconstituted CCA contract t&c item. But no signed agreement. There is zero mention of me any of it. I can look again.
They sent a letter to say it is unenforceable. But still to pay.
I said NO!
This is the reply
“Hi C
Thank you for your response.
Agreements provided do not have to be the original documents, a reconstituted agreement is deemed as being acceptable to our regulators and does not have to contain signatures or be the actual signed agreement. You can get further info on the CCA website around acceptable reconstituted agreements http://www.handbook.fca.org.uk
Please let us know how you would like to proceed?
Yours sincerely
JQ
Is that true? I would say from first hand experience that it is a lie.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
They sent a letter to say it is unenforceable.
So PRA have said in writing that the debt is unenforceable?
Chris says
Yes I wish I could add the photo of it.
Do you think they have made an error?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If they have said it is Unenforceable then you can ignore requests for payment. Which is why I checking you didn’t mean to write Enforceable.
Sean says
Hi Sara,
I have a letter that says their client (creditor):
“They have advised that they are unable to provide a copy of Opening Agreement of the account”
But haven’t explicitly used the word unenforceable.
They have since gone quiet and not chased.
What if any action would you consider in such a circumstance?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So they haven’t said it is unenforceable.
Have they provided a reconstituted CCA agreement? That should have your name, address etc. if you aren’t sure if it is valid, talk to National Debtline on 0808 808 4000 or post on the Legal Beagles forum https://legalbeagles.info/forums/forum/legalbeagles-consumer-forums
Sean says
Hi Sara,
Forgive the long delay and thank you for your response!
No they only said the above and followed up with no CCA; reconstituted or otherwise – and have not followed up since with either a request for payment (nor indeed for any reason).
I did message Legal Beagles Forum twice – in both cases no response.
Seems like everyone wants to leave this one dormant (which of course works for me). Drops off in 2 years)
Sara (Debt Camel) says
OK but the next time you hear anything, reply that they have said they cannot produce the CCA agreement so can they please confirm that the debt is unenforceable until they do.
Chris says
Thanks Sara, your reply is one good thing this day, I think I’m having a Friday the 13th week of it. 😂
I will have to sort an arrangement with them.
Have a good day
Mia says
Hi Sara
I have just phoned Capquest (debt collectors) specifically which address I should use to request a copy of the CCA, as the Arrow Global are the debt owners. Address for capquest is different (Glasgow address), whereas Arrow Global is Manchester. I am aware that they are part of the same group of companies.
It was verbally confirmed that they couldn’t produce the CCA, and they agreed to put it in writing. I am still keen to send an official written request, with the £1, because I want proof I have followed the correct channels and procedures, and would like proof of my own that I have sent the letter. Throughout the call, I was not told which address to use, and was met with lots of obfuscation/deflection as to which address to use. I found this odd, however after a half hour phone call (most on hold), I told them I would wait a week for the written confirmation of what they had told me (i.e. they can’t produce a copy of the CCA)
Has anyone dealt with Capquest/Arrow Global to request the CCA copy? My instict tells me to write to the Arrow registered address, as Arrow are the current debt owners, but their notice of assignment letter requests comms via capquest.
Many thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I would send it to Arrow and send a copy of the letter to CapQuest. “here for your information is a copy of the CCA request I have just sent to Arrow”
Matt says
Hi Sara,
In May 2018 I took out a loan with AA Loans (underwritten by Bank of Ireland) for £25,000, on a 60 month term.
Original repayments were £558 a month, which honestly were unaffordable, and it’s my belief they never should have lent me so much – I was in a debt spiral and this worsened it. I used the loan to pay off other debts I had accumulated, and the repayments soon became too much for me. Thankfully I found Stepchange in November 2018 and went onto a DMP, a huge relief. I heard that you can claim against a creditor for irresponsible lending, what is the process for this please?
I’ve managed to clear all the other debts that were included on my DMP, there is around £18k remaining on this loan, which AA sold to Intrum in March 2020. I’ve been dealing with Intrum directly since March this year, having closed the DMP. I set up a Direct Debit for £433/month (the same I was paying to them via the DMP).
They want me to complete an affordability assessment, which I haven’t done yet. I heard that potentially they can’t enforce the debt if they can’t produce a copy of the CCA. I wrote to them on 1st June using the National Debtline template, via signed-for delivery. The 12 days have now passed and I’m wondering what I should do next? I’d be really grateful for your advice on the best course of action to take.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The process for an affordability complaint is here: https://debtcamel.co.uk/refunds-large-high-cost-loans/. Your complaint will be against Bank of Ireland, not the AA and not Intrum. Use the form here: https://www.bankofirelanduk.com/help-and-support/how-to-complain/your-complaint/
You should also look at affordability complaints against the debts that you cleared with the Bank of Ireland loan.
You can’t assume they won’t be able to produce the CCA agreement for a couple more months. This was a recent loan and you were paying a lot a month to it – it is likely (but not certain) that they will be able to produce the CCA agreement.
Matt says
Hi Sara,
Thanks for the quick response, it’s much appreciated. I will look into those links regarding the affordability complaint.
For the outstanding loan, is my best bet to continue paying the monthly Direct Debit of £433 for the next couple of months or so, and see if they present the CCA during that time (I guess best for me to keep quiet and not chase them in the meantime?)
Finally, if they chase me to complete an affordability assessment, shall I try to defer this and just keep paying the £433 for now?
Thanks so much for your advice
Matt
Sara (Debt Camel) says
is the £443 affordable with all the bills and price rises this year?
Matt says
Yes it is affordable at the moment. I’m just thinking maybe to keep paying it for now, so as not to rock the boat for the next couple of months and then reconsider say at the end of August, based on whether they’ve found the CCA?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
that sounds good – say you will do an affordability assessment when they have produced the CCA agreement.
Matt says
Hi Sara
I’ve just heard back from Intrum who have produced a copy of the CCA (I requested it back on 1st June)
Is there any significance in them having missed the 12 day window, do they still have all the same powers to enforce the debt?
Just wanted to know your thoughts on what the best way forward is please. I stopped paying them a few months back when they didn’t produce the CCA, and I was postponing completing an affordability assessment until then
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Not providing it within 12 days has no significance now. They could not enforce the debt (eg by going to court) until they have provided it, which they now have.
I suggest you complete the affordability assessment with Intrum and also make an affordability complaint to the original lender.
Lynda says
Hi I have a question to confirm. I have 2 credit cards that I was personally paying by agreement with some credit companies of a debt that was from 2011. These have been nominal payments of which I recently stopped paying as I don’t believe the balances to be correct and one I thought was in my ex partners name. However because the payments were small I had continued paying them. There was a sign if isn’t amount of interest loaded on these when I originally defaulted aswell. I have been looking into whether they are statute barred which I thought was more of a ‘time’ issue but upon reading it included contact whether that’s correspondence or making payments. I requested my cca however they cannot produce these for either but have sent a statement from 2006 (when I originally opened the accounts) sling with a systems of the payments I have made over the last couple of years. On that basis I’m thinking that although my defaults have now dropped off my credit file, the debts are not statute barred snd are still enforceable. I’m thinking of offering a full and final settlement snd want to clarify that this will not re-appear on my now clean credit file. I have read the threads that suggest because they have now dropped off that they will not re-appear once I have made snd gad offer accepted, can you confirm that this is the case please before I draft this offer. So sorry it’s long winded, thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If you have been making payments, the debts aren’t statute barred.
But if they can’t produce the CCA agreements, they are NOT enforceable. Has the creditor said clearly that they cannot produce the CCA agreement? When did you ask for the CCA agreements?
Lynda says
So I wrote to them in 2/3/2022 and had a reply yesterday by way of courier requiring a signature! It was a bunch of statements for my credit card from 2006 2011 and a few from 2017. There was no complete set of dates just to add, they were random statements. The letter stated they were unable to provide copies of cca as they were no longer available from the credit card companies because of how old the accounts were. It said how much I now owed and when the cards were taken out. There was a statement of payments I had made previously and some copies of letters saying where the debts had transferred to/from as they’ve swapped collection company several times. It also went on to say that as I’d made payments it was my debt and they would contact me in 21 days to secure a payment plan.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You aren’t disputing that it is your debt – that is not relevant.
Did they say that the debt was unenforceable? If they didn’t you need to go back to them and ask them to confirm this.
Who is the current creditor?
Lynda says
It is with Lloyd bank and RBS and they haven’t said it’s not unenforceable at all. Hence the query of double checking the previous threads.
That’s the original company, it’s now with Cabot.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you go back to Cabot by email and ask them to confirm that the debts are currently unenforceable.
Fi says
Hello Sara
Please could you comment on my two debts below? Thank you for the very useful information you provide in your articles I have read.
I have two debts from 2008 – my 1989 only credit card (CC) – possibly debt sold on in 2017 although I have not corresponded in any way with debt purchaser(?) writing to me – and a 1989 current account (overdrawn) with the same bank. I continue to make £1 a month cash payments in-branch for both debts,. DCA statements sent to me show payments on CC so I assume the bank is passing them on. In 2019, I requested a CCA with follow-up reminder, for the CC from the Bank and my £1 PO was returned with no CCA. Is that an indication the Bank no longer has it from 1989? The two debts did show on my credit file but had gone on my last credit report (2019 Experian and Equifax).
Could the CC debt be statute barred next year on the basis that I have not communicated with the DCA in any regard, nor have they taken legal action? I do not wish to instigate a new limitation period unknowingly. I could consider a low settlement offer if a CCA exists yet must ascertain if it does not. How should I proceed? Should I deal with the original creditor or start up contact with the DCA, to request CCA from them? Regarding the current account debt, I’d consider a low settlement offer on this debt (c.5%). A collector ‘for client’ writes to me. Thank you.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Could the CC debt be statute barred next year on the basis that I have not communicated with the DCA in any regard, nor have they taken legal action?
No debt that you have paid continuously will ever become statute barred. Every payment you make acknowledges the debt.
Have debt collectors bought these debts or are they collecting on behalf of the original creditor? The statement you get shouid confirm this.
Fi says
The CC debt is purchased probably – DCA statements outline they are ‘Owner’ and states the ‘Original Lender’, ‘Agreement Date’ and ‘Original Account Number’. They describe £1 transactions as ‘Direct Payment’. Correspondence requests I switch my payments to them.
Regarding the current account – in branch they issue mini statements when I pay and can see account history (recent?). A DCA has written to me on behalf ‘Our Client’ three or four times. Collecting, I would say.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Yes that CC debt has been sold. You ask the debt purchaser for the CCA agreement, not the original lender.
The overdraft hasn’t been sold. And a CCA agreement isn’t relelvant for an overdraft. You can offer 5% but that depends on your financial situation – can you afford that? Could you afford a lot more?
Fi says
Thank you particularly for addressing my question on statute-barring. I see it is about my making payments, irrespective of who I was making those payments to.
I am not employed/ have no salary coming in. I receive state benefits. I received a PPI refund on the CC from original creditor. I consider I have the possibility at this time to offer c.5% as FF settlement of my debts in total (£8+k CC/£3.5+k CA).
I envisage making any settlement offer for the current account to the Bank first off. Should I do this in writing best and expect any agreement to be in writing from them before payment? From there, I will contact the DCA of CC and request the CCA and await the outcome. Does this sound appropriate? Thanks once again.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I am not sure if you have no income, why you would want to make a 5% settlement offer.
What benefits are you in receipt of?
Are you buying or renting?
Do you expect anything to change in your situation in the next couple of years?
Fi says
Thank you for your prompt reply to me. I considered this a possibility of bringing my debt matters to a close that’s all. However, with thought, if my offer regarding the CA at that level is likely not to be productive, perhaps I will just continue with the current situation for the CA (i.e. making monthly payments). I receive an incapacity benefit and housing benefit. I rent, my landlord is a housing association. I do not anticipate a change.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If your only income is from benefits, then I suggest you look at a Debt Relief Order, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/debt-options/dro/. As your situation sounds unlikely to get better and you have a secure tenancy, a DRO may well be be your best option – it would resolve your debts with no need to make further payments. Phone National Debtline on 0808 808 4000 about this.
Fi says
Thank you for providing this information.
A final question, can you see any reason why I can’t contact the DCA to make a CCA request? I feel this would be useful for my knowing the status of the debt on my CC. Thank you very much for your commenting on my debts overall Sara.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You can ask for the debt that used to be a credit card. But seriously it doesn’t help with your overall situation as you are still left with a large overdraft debt. There is little point in spending time and mental energy doing this. A DRO will sort out both debts very simply.
Joanne says
Hi Sara
I have a loan with £7,000 still remaining it was taken out in 2008 with Sainsburys. I have been in a DMP with Stepchange for a number of years, this debt is dealt with by Westcot but seems to be owned by Inturm. I requested the CCA back in May and they finally replied a few weeks ago saying Inturm do not have the CCA. I emailed them saying the debt is unenforceable with the CCA and I would no longer be paying them unless they produce an the agreement I also instructed Stepchange to stop paying . I got a response back from Westcot today saying the following;
I am sorry to hear that Inturm are unable to provide the original credit agreement from Sainsbury’s.
While I understand that you have advised the debt is no longer enforceable. As you was previously paying Sainsbury’s and taking liability for the balance, the above balance remains in place with your liability after Inturm purchased the account from Sainsbury’s.
Please can you advise what instruction StepChange has advised you in this matter?
To allow you time to respond and to advise us how you wish to proceed, I have held your account until 7th December 2022. Please contact us on or before this date otherwise your account will return to standard collection activity and contact will restart.
My question is this can they enforce me to pay if there is no agreement and will they start to bombard me with letters and phone calls if I stop paying? If so what action can I take if any?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
“While I understand that you have advised the debt is no longer enforceable. As you was previously paying Sainsbury’s and taking liability for the balance, the above balance remains in place with your liability after Inturm purchased the account from Sainsbury’s.”
these are weasel words. You are not denying the debt is yours. But it cannot be enforced and the fact you have been paying it up until now is irrelevant.
And no they can’t bombard you – you need to inform them that as the debt is unenforceable, you will not be paying it. They can send you the odd remonder – which has to be clear that the debt is unenforceable. But that can’t bombard you – if they do you can complain and ask for compensation.
Joanne says
Thanks so much Sara
I will send another email stating I will not be paying as the debt is not enforceable and instruct Stepchange to remove it from our DMP.
Joanne Boyce says
Sara
Just received this from Westcot today
We can advise that non-supply of the credit agreement is no longer a criminal offence under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Please note that non-supply of this agreement does not invalidate the debt but makes it unenforceable only for the period of non-compliance. This means a creditor:
Cannot:
Make you pay off your debt before you’re supposed to;
Get a court judgment against you; or
Take back anything you’ve hired or bought on credit, take anything you used as security when you took out the agreement.
Can:
Ask you to pay what you owe;
Send you a letter called a ‘default notice’ if you miss any payments;
Pass your information on to a credit reference agency
Pass your information on to a debt collector;
Sell your debt to someone else; or
Take your case to court, although they won’t be able to get a court judgement against you unless they give you the information you’re entitled to.
As previously advised the account is currently on hold whilst we await a client response.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
We can advise that non-supply of the credit agreement is no longer a criminal offence under the Consumer Credit Act 1974
Haha. Whoever thought it was a criminal offence?
The rest of that lot is accurate.
But you said “I requested the CCA back in May and they finally replied a few weeks ago saying Inturm do not have the CCA. ”
After 5 months it may well be that the CCA cannot be produced. You can just ask StepChange to remove it from your DMP and tell Westcot that you will get it added back if they do produce the CCA.
Nick says
Hi Sara
We have an unenforceable debt (not to CCA but being found) with PRA (originally Nat West) which we stopped paying some time ago.
They are calling my wife twice a day every day. Is that allowed / acceptable?
Thanks
Nick
Sara (Debt Camel) says
does she pick up? Do they leave messages? has she told PRA she will not be paying this?
Stephen says
Hi Sara, I have an overdraft £1200 and a loan £10,500 originally from Natwest now owned by PRA. They are both defaulted March 2017 so will be dropping off my record in around 2 months. I asked for CCA from PRA in Jan 2021 and still hasn’t been produced 12 months later. PRA state on emails “Your accounts are unenforceable and no legal action…”. PRA for 12 months have said that BOTH accounts are unenforceable.
1) Am I legally “safe” for both accounts whilst they cant produce a CCA or are PRA making a mistake here with the OD and if they realise, they can pursue legal action immediately?
Lastly, the Loan was from NW for £9000, then when it defaulted with interest it was £12,000 and I have paid off £2000 on this to NW/PRA. With NW I initially took out a loan of £3500, then took another for £6500 (which repaid the £3500 loan) and then I took out loan for £9000 (which repaid the loan for £6500). At the time of £9000 loan, I had a NW CC maxed at £500, NW OD £2000 and my credit record showing 20-30 payday loans within the previous few years, some still being repaid. The timeline from getting the £3500 loan to the £9000 loan was all within 12 months
2) The Natwest loan was given in 2016 which will be 6/7 years ago, can I still complain about this loan?
3) If I did complain about this loan, am I risking Natwest digging through old files and finding the CCA agreement that they would then pass to PRA and my debts become enforceable again?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I asked for CCA from PRA in Jan 2021 and still hasn’t been produced 12 months later.
did you mean 2022? or has it been 2 years since you asked?
1) PRA can’t go “straight” to court. they would have to contact you and explain that the debt is actually enforceable. After that they (or their solicitors) would have to send you a Letter before Claim/Action (see https://debtcamel.co.uk/letter-before-claim-ccj/ for what one of these letters looks like – DO NOT IGNORE IT if you get one) and only after that can they go to court.
So you will have plenty of time to restart a payment plan for the overdraft.
If this goes on for a few more years and they then change their minds, you could then complaint that they have acted unreasonably and that you have arranged your finances on the basis of what they said so they should now write off the debt not take you to court. That would not be a simple defence… But it may well be there is no need for it so no need to worry about it now.
2) yes but it is pointless. if you win the case, NatWest will find out from PRA that you have not settled this debt. You are never going to get a refund of interest that you have not actually paid… the fact that PRA says the debt is unenforceable doesnt help you here.
3) no idea. It is more likely that if you win the case natwest will buy the debt back from PRA. But there is no point in making this complaint in any case.
K-Dawg463 says
Hi there…
I had a loan for roughly £4000 which was taken out back in 2018. I had struggles in 2019 and went into default on the loan. I request CCA’s back in 2020 (off the top of my head) in relation to all my debt. They weren’t able to produce it. I have heard nothing since and they have been through the usual requests of asking for payment etc etc. They have sold the debt onto a third party back in April 2022 from which I received a correspondence notifying me of such.
I have then since discovered (via logging onto my credit expert today), that back in July 2022 they have lodged a CCJ against me for the debt which has been accepted. I haven’t been aware of this until now as I live elsewhere in the UK. How have they managed to lodge a CCJ against a debt which I have never been provided with a CCA for? Any guidance would be helpful.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
who is the lender? did you inform them of your change of address? did you inform the debt collector that bought the debt?
Simion says
Hi Sara,
Happy New Year.
My partner has received a letter a few weeks back from a DCA out of the blue. This is she thinks from a debt from years back (15 years or so) after a car was written off (ins paid less out) she has never had any correspondence about this debt at all. A CCJ was registered on her CF 7 years back so is no longer on (credit file is fine across all CRA’s and she pays everything on time)
We are wanting to apply for a mortgage soon and this letter through has come as a big surprise and is terribly timed. I am unsure as to how to approach this as I do not want her credit file being tarnished as it was for 6 years already with the CCJ. Also, we will look to get this paid either partially or fully for her, but again I don’t want it impacting her CF or the mtg application. Equally I feel like we should send the DCA a letter back but don’t want things being impacted, I also don’t want to ignore the letters (and won’t do of course) they have sent 1 a week and are ramping each one up. I have read this debt cannot impact her CF again, which is great ( and the main concern) We won’t ignore the DCA but equally I don’t want to agree a partial/full payment which will then impact our application. I don’t want any more action taken against her through the courts either of course. I feel a bit in no mans land at the mo as I just wasn’t expecting to have to address this. Thank you
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It cannot reappear on her credit file. After 6 years the creditor has to go back to court to get permission to enforce the CCJ, and this is rare. I suggest she talks to National Debtline on 0808 808 4000 about this – knowing more about her rights may make it easier to get a low settlement offer accepted.
Simion says
Hi Sara,
Thanks for the swift response.
I chatted with the national debt helpline and they confirmed this won’t show back on CF, so this is great to hear. They also mentioned that paying monthly on the DCA wouldn’t impact her cf, but I know that this would impact a mortgage application. They couldn’t give me any solid advice on partial/full settlement unfortunately, so I only gained limited info. I think what I will do is buy a bit of time and ask for proof of the original debt and then see if we can negotiate a lower deal as this debt is 14+ years old. I will do all this by letter, so we don’t have to haggle over the phone. If you have any other advice much appreciated. If not, all the best and thanks.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
when there has been a CCJ the creditor is not obliged to try to produce the Consumer Credit Act agreement for the debt. But as she was unaware there was a debt at all it is readonable to ask for details of the CCJ and a statement of the account. etails of the original debt.
Simione says
Hi Sara, I have had a response via letter with info the debt was from 07’ defaulted 08’ and went to CCJ Jan 16’ so as we know has dropped off CF now. I am responding and thinking of mentioning about exploring getting the CCJ set and what is the lowest partial settlement amount they would consider as a lump sum to write the debt off and never chase it again (this I would of course want in writing) any thoughts?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I think it may still be worth asking for proof of the CCJ as all you have at the moment is their word for it as she was never aware of it.
Simione says
Hi Sara, thanks for the swift response. They have supplied info on the CCJ like an account number, when/ where is was registered and the amount. Should they need to supply anything more than that, as it was on her CF, but that’s it? Just want to get this gone ASAP, but as she never received any correspondence + it defaulted 08’ it makes sense offering a partial settlement?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
so she remembers seeing the CCJ on her credit record?
Simione says
Hi Sara, she saw it drop onto her CF years ago (2016), but has never had any correspondence about it, (letters/calls) not a thing, so wasn’t sure what it was. She thinks though it must be from a debt years before that happened as per original comment. So I guess i’m just trying to work out the best option, considering we will be looking at a mortgage soon, but I don’t want her having to pay the full amount they are asking for if she doesn’t need to. Hope this makes sense.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
“I am responding and thinking of mentioning about exploring getting the CCJ set “
I assume you mean set aside? You haven’t suggested any reasons for doing this. A set aside application has to be made promptly – as she saw it on her credit record, that would have been the time to do it, not now.
“what is the lowest partial settlement amount they would consider as a lump sum to write the debt off and never chase it again”
you want to ask them that? what are you going to do if they say the whole amount?
Did National Debtline talk to you about this would be hard for the creditor to enforce after so long?
Simione says
Hi Sara, ah I see when I was reading info about it. I was under the impression that my partner may be able to get it set aside as she had never had any contact or paperwork about this CCJ from anyone. I didn’t see a timeframe for this so presumed it may be an option. The NDH weren’t particularly forthcoming with information on that element around if it would be difficult for the DCA to enforce after all this time. After reading another page on your site about partial/full settlement I thought it was saying the older the debt (longer away the default date) the more chance a company would accept a partial payment? If they ask for the full amount then we’ll have to cross that bridge at that time. Thanks for your views on this too.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
if you want to offer half or something, offer it. Don’t ask what is the lowest they would accept, that isn’t a good way to try to negotiate.
But I suggest you phone ND up again and ask whether this CCJ can now be enforced after so long.
Simion says
Hi Sara, i’ll get onto them again to ask then and will then follow the advice you have just mentioned around a settlement, depending on what the NDH come back with.
Really appreciate your help.
Seb says
Hello, I have two debts with Cabot (£2.5k) and PRA (£4k), both have defaults which will expire Sep 2024. I sent CCA requests (in Dec-22) to both and both have responded (Jan-23) stating they can’t find the CCAs and the debts are unenforceable. Following the advice and will continue paying them £1 per month each via my DMP with StepChange. If they can’t find the CCAs by March-23 and I stop paying them, can they add missed payments to my credit file each month? Will the payment history be removed along with the debts when the defaults are 6 years old?
Finally, I’d like to get a mortgage after my defaults expire in late 2024, will offering a partial settlement help with my chances or is it pointless after the defaults/debts disappear from my credit file?
Thanks in advance
Sara (Debt Camel) says
can they add missed payments to my credit file each month?
this should not happen
Will the payment history be removed along with the debts when the defaults are 6 years old?
yes they should be deleted 6 years after the default date
Terri says
Hello, Arrow took me to court in 2019 for an Evans credit card with the original lender being Santander.
I submitted a defence and requested cca agreement and the case was stayed. Since 2021 they have been sending me statements with the same opening and closing balance which has had the court costs added oven though the case is still stayed . It also has a little paragraph with:
“Original Agreement-credit card
“Original creditor- Santander Cards Limited
Affinity Brand- Evans
Date of original agreement – 03 SEPTEMBER 2008
Original account number-
Date of assignment to Arrow – 08 May 2013
They lodged the court case on 06 May 2019
How can I move forward with this? I do not remember this debt and they have supplied me with a copy of the agreement only statements with the above information and a balance.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you talk to National Debtline (https://nationaldebtline.org/) on 0808 808 4000. And/or post on the Legal Beagles forum https://legalbeagles.info/forums/forum/legal-forums/court-claims-and-issues
Wayne B says
Hi,
I have 7 credit card debts that are showing as defaulted on my cred file (clear score) however my cred rating is not too bad and showing as stable. they all defaulted in 2018,. I have only spoke to them by telephone once recently. 1 lender Lloyds have said that the account has been closed. Barclay card is still with them, but they have said when I called that they are not pursuing the debt? The others are with various debt collection agencies, PRA, Cabot, hoist and intrum. I can never realistically settle them in full the debt collection agencies have sent letters offering partial settlements, which I’m thinking of doing to the ones that are affordable. This is simply to avoid any ccjs if I’m honest as I’m really struggling to get credit, car finance etc, which I need.and do obviously want to sort out my cred rating. Can you please advise me as to what to do? As I’m a bit confused about it?shall I partially settle what I can, will it affect me worse than just hoping it will go away?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
1 lender Lloyds have said that the account has been closed. Barclay card is still with them, but they have said when I called that they are not pursuing the debt?
I am sorry but the only way to find out was has happened to these debts is if you ask them for details. Ask lloyds if the debt has been sold or if they will not be pursuing it and will not send it. Ask Barclays to confirm that they will not sell the debt.
Because if either of these debts has been or will be sold, then you cannot ignore them as itys then likely you will be asked to pay by a debt collector before they drop off your credit records in 2024.
What sort of offers have the debt collectors made you? How much cash to you have to settle these?
Wayne says
Hi Sara,
Thanks for getting back so quickly!!
Lloyds said acct is closed, and will not be pursing it further, they had difficulty even finding it, Barclays said that they will not be pursuing it any further and if I can pay it then I can but I don’t have to?? The offers that the credit agencies have sent in letters are all under £300, 80% reductions I think. I don’t have the money at the moment but I intend to pay them off one by one when I do, e.g, pay one off one month then the next a month after etc. would partially settling improve my score so I can start being able to get straight again, upto 2018 I had a very good cred score since working. I have also since been able to get 2 new cred cards which I have a small balance on 1 and I don’t even intend to use the other at all, plus I still have a catalogue acct which I have no trouble with. I’m just lost as to what to do to get me out of the financial mess I’m in? As I recently tried to get finance on a car but was turned down, even though I’d just had a 4 year agreement with them that settled in full (due to my car being written off by someone else, non fault claim for me) I also regularly check my cred score. I’m just stuck on what to do???
Sara (Debt Camel) says
are you making any payments at the moment to these 5 (ignoring the lloyds & Barcalays)?
Are you in work? Up to date with all the bills?
Settling the debts in full or partially will not improve your credit score (weird but those are the rules.) However it will mean more lenders may be prepared to lend to you.
With 7 defaults on your credit record though you will only be able to get car finance at a pretty horrible rate of interest.
if you don’t either settle the debts (in full or partially) or set up monthly payment arrangements, you are likely to get taken to court for a sCCJ but at least some of the the debt collectors before the 6 years is up.
Wayne says
Hi Sara,
No I haven’t made any payments since 2018, as I was not working due to mental health issues I suffer from. My creditors are also aware of my mental health too.
I will try and partially settle the ones I can, will they still drop off my credit file after 2024 still? And I’m thinking of asking for the cca agreement for others, and see if I can arrange a partial settlement for them too maybe? Would this be a good idea? My last car finance deal was high interest I ended up paying 12k for a 7k loan. Will partially settling others help me get a better rate for financing in future?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
“will they still drop off my credit file after 2024 still? “
yes , see https://debtcamel.co.uk/ff-credit-record/
“And I’m thinking of asking for the cca agreement for others, and see if I can arrange a partial settlement for them too maybe? “
asking for CCA agreement isnt a bad idea but it is unlikely to make it easier to get them to agree to a F&F. This rarely seems to happen.
“My last car finance deal was high interest I ended up paying 12k for a 7k loan.”
Have you looked at making an affordability complaint? See https://debtcamel.co.uk/unaffordable-car-finance/
And you could also look at affordability complaints against the credit cards – the claims go to the original lender not the debt collector. See https://debtcamel.co.uk/refunds-catalogue-credit-card/. If you think this may be a good idea you should get moving on them as older complaints are harder to win (but not impossible).
“Will partially settling others help me get a better rate for financing in future?”
realistically probably not until the defaults have dropped off as you will still have the lloyds & Barclays one on there unpaid. And even with a good credit record, you may find it harder now if your only income is from benefits.
Are you renting privately or social?
Matt says
Hi
I’ve been paying an old debt since 2011 ( sainsburys loan )
I’ve recently asked for the original credit agreement which now they’ve said “ unfortunately we cannot obtain from Sainsbury’s “
The debt is now with Cabot financial…
Any ideas on what I should do going forward with this debt which I owe about £260?
Many thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Does this debt still show on your credit record?
Matt says
No it defaulted way back in 2012
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Cabot should have told you in their reply that the debt is now unenforceable. You don’t have to pay them any more money.
Matt says
Great stuff!
Thanks Sara
Helen G says
Taking the unenforceable comment a bit further I totally ignore all contact from Link even though they say the debt is collectible. There is nothing they can do.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
if Link say a debt is collectible but unenforceable, it is correct that there there is nothing more they can do.
Sharon says
Hello, I am in the process of negotiating full and final payments with various companies. I have complained about affordability to the FOS who have agreed with me and I am awaiting if the company will dispute their decision. I would still have an outstanding balance with them of £442. They say they do not do full and final settlement payments. Is this correct? Every other company I have contacted have said that they can do this or will look into it when I am ready to make the payment. It just seems odd to me that they would not budge at all considering the debt was missold etc Is this normal?
Thank you
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Just let the FOS decision go through – of course they won’t talk to you about a full and final at the moment, they are unsure what the balance is going to be.
But there is no rule that says a creditor has to accept F&F offers.
Jack says
Hi Sara
Would like to pick your advice here, in brief: sent debt collector (PRA group). CCA request Nov 2021 they wrote back Dec 2021 saying debt unenforceable stopped payments Jan 2022. Told them on phone stopping till they do find CCA request papers. To date still haven’t but they still keep emailing, writing in mail for payments, is there a template letter at all where I can email them saying not paying them unless they do find them. As over a year it’s now 3 emails / letters per week getting off them.
Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Just send them a one sentence email saying that.
The letters and emails – do they all mention that the debt is unenforceable?
Jack says
Thanks Sara.
I will then thank you.
Yes they do now I complained about it and was upheld got £100 compo as goodwill sorry.
Helen G says
I hsvd a similar situation with a n other and contacted them and asked for contact process to be updated to letters only. They now rarely contact me.
Oxnman says
Hi,
I was wondering if you could advise please.
I have a debt from approx 2006 which has been passed to a couple of different college toon agencies. I want to request the CCA, however, do I ask the collection agencies or the original creditor? I’m not sure if the agency have bought the debt or are just managing it. The DCA is zinc group original creditor is Natwest and it was for a personal loan.
Many thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
When did you last make a payment to this debt?
I assume it no longer shows on your credit report? If it did, if shows under Natwest’s name, then Zinc is collecting for them, if it shows under Zinc’s name then they have bought the debt.
Have you got any emails of letters from Zinc? They should say whether they now own the debt or are collecting for natWest.
Oxnman says
Hi Sara,
Thanks for the reply.
So I am still currently making payments I have since 2010 the default fell off my credit file a number of years ago. I didn’t notice then if it was under zinc or still natwest. The only email I have says their “client: Natwest”
Before zinc it was with RSM Tenon
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok if it says “client NatWest” they are collecting on behalf of NatWest.
Is this a large debt or are you only making tiny payments?
The CCA request should be sent to NatWest. As it is so old, there is a chance this may work.
Oxnman says
It’s still fairly substantial. 11/12k unsure the exact amount. Only making £100 a month payments. They don’t have my latest address as I’ve moved maybe three times or more since the loan was taken out. I would rather not let the collection agencies have my newest address if that’s at all possible. Can you request a cca via email? Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It’s tricky to enclose a £1 cheque with an email…
Oxnman says
This is very true ha ha. Thank you for your help.
Mellymel says
Hello
Hoping someone can kindly advise…
My partner had a credit card to Capital one. taken out in 2016 I believe payments ceased around 2017 and he was defaulted. (we are going to look into exact default date) no further payments made.
Lowell have been chasing for a long time and have now passed to Overdale solicitors who are threatening a CCJ in 30 days.
We sent a CCA request and a SAR. They responded to the CCA request with a reconstituted agreement to Cap one) no assignment of debt to Lowell, whom they are saying are their client and they are acting on behalf (and it came late)
Nothing back on the SAR which is now 11 days overdue.
Where do we stand right now? it the default has passed the six years and disappeared from credit record can they issue a CCJ?
Do we complain about breached SAR?
Is it enforceable without the assignment of debt to Lowell?
Any help greatly appreciated
Many thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I think you need to find out the default date and when he last made a payment to this debt. Without these pieces of information you are guessing about whether you may be able to defence this on the basis that it is statute barred.
What are you hoping to get back from the SAR? You could make a complaint to the ICO about this but it does not I’m itself make the debt unenforceable.
Defending a case on the basis that they have not sent you details of the debt assignment may be a lot harder and I can’t say anything about this. You could ask National Debtline on 0808 808 4000 or post on the Legal Beagles forum.
The fact the CCA came late is irrelevant, it won’t help you.
Lucy says
Hey,
I have received two letters from my creditor stating that the debt is currently unenforceable. I would like to make them an offer to mark these as paid and can no longer be chased, however I can only find F&F letters on the national debt helpline. While they have the majority of information, they are not for unenforceable debts.
Do you have any template letters or a link to a template letter that I could use to make them an offer whilst the debt is unenforceable please?
Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!
Many thanks.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No, just change the National Debtline template.
The fact the debt is unenforceable does not mean that they are more likely to accept a low offer though.
Serge says
Hi Everyone,
-9 debts with various agencies, mostly PRA.
-I requested CCA’s end of Feb, 4 have arrived, 5 have not.
Is not too short a window to tell Stepchange to withold payment to those 5?
Also, finally wild card question:
Is there a target figure I should be aiming for with the ones with a CCA? I just got OPOS down to 60% but not sure if this is a win or not.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I personally would give them at least another month.
What F&F a lender will accept depends a lot on the individual circumstances. See https://debtcamel.co.uk/full-final-settlement-rejected/ which looks at reasons F&Fs may be rejected and think what may apply to you.
Frederick says
Hi all
I had a secured loan with welcome finance in 2006/2007 after putting it in serious dispute in 2013 I heard very little as they said they can’t locate my CCA,then they sold my debt to coast finance solutions who just kept sending threats then I CCA them on then sent a letter saying no enforcement action as they cannot obtain a copy of my CCA,now I receive a letter from swift advances saying they now own the debt and can charge me for letters,some one managing my account if in arrears ect.How do I stand with these guys on there fees ect and I guess it’s still unenforceable.
Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you talk to National Debtline about this because it is a secured loan. Phone 0808 808 4000
Paul says
Hi Sara,
Thanks for the advice as I had conformation back last week from Link Financial that they could not find the original loan paper work so the debt was not enforceable. AS it took them 2 months to reply I wrote back and informed them that I would not bee paying anymore to them until they could find the relevant paper work.
Today I have received a letter back from Equivo who took over a tesco loan to say that a CCJ was put in place back in 2011 so they are relying on the CCJ rather than the agreement. I never received a CCJ from Tesco finance as when I went to court Tesco had not sent any paper work to the court and no representative turned up so the judge set it aside. My question is how can I prove I was never issued a CCJ or can I request Equivo prove I had one?
Thanks Again
Paul
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I assume this is two separate debts? One with Link and the Equivo/Tesco loan.
You should tell Equivo what happened and ask them to produce any proof that there ever was a CCJ.
If there was a CCJ, it is now well over the 6 year point where a creditor has to go back to court to ask permission to enforce a CCJ. Talk to National Debtline on 0808 808 4000 about this.
Marie says
Hello Sara
I asked PRA for CCAs. They produced 1 that cannot be read with the naked eye. It was a copy and the font was really tiny. Can only be read with a magnifying tool. The debt is £4000
The 2nd was just generic copies of the short form cancellation, historic terms and conditions and varied terms and conditions. None had my details on or a CCA. The debt is £4000
The 3rd debt I have with PRA is an overdraft £400
I would consider the first two not enforceable. The cover lette didnt say the debt was or wasnt enforceable.
The defaults for one of the above debts has now expired and not on my file. The other two will expire in July and November.
I’ve been on a DMP since 2017 and offered them
a FFS of 40% of the debt. However, they made a counter offer of a reduction of 10% on the first two debts and 5% on the lower one.
I can’t afford that as my boyfriend was gifting me a set figure to help me.. Now I don’t know what to do.
I wanted to clear this debt by end of this year because I want to save up a deposit for a mortgage. My credit file will be clear by November as all my defaults will drop off. But if I stay on my DMP I don’t know how this will affect a mortgage application.
I really would appreciate your help.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
how long will it take you to save a deposit for a mortgage?
I can’t advise you on whether the two credit card CCAs are valid – I suggest you ask National Debtline on 0808 808 4000 and/or post on the Legal Beagles forum https://legalbeagles.info/forums/forum/money-debt/consumer-credit-act
Marie says
Thank you Sara. I’ll seek advice from the forums you’ve suggested
Nailah says
Hi Sara,
I couldn’t find advice about this issue online. I have been making token payments of £1 for 10 years + to 5 debt collectors. The defaults dropped off my file between 2017-2021. Can I stop paying the token payments? Or should I also ask for the CCA? Thanks in advance for your help.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
What sort of debts were these originally?
Nailah says
Catalogue, credit card, overdraft debts.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
A CCA agreement is not relevant for an overdraft. But you can ask for the CCA agreement for catalogue and credit cards.
Kate says
Hi Sara,
I’ve been studying your articles for a long time, thank you very much!
I have been paying Link £1 a month for a long time and I have now discovered, with your help that it’s unenforceable. I offered £100 for the debt of £1,605 (6.23%) and they came back with a counter offer of £597 which is 37%. I am quite desperate to just get rid of it. The money would be a gift and wouldn’t affect priority debts etc. Are they likely to accept a counter offer? It is payable but unenforceable.
I can’t work out if 37% is really good or if they’re trying it on.
Thank you
Sara (Debt Camel) says
is this debt defaulted? does it show on your credit record? why are you so desperate to get rid of it and do you have other debt problems as well?
Kate says
Thank you.
I’m not sure of the answer to those two questions but I’m so tired of being in debt and my partner too, so we wanted to wrap them all up using a cash lump sum that he now has.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You need to find out if this is on your credit record before you make a decision – check with all three credit reference agencies, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/best-way-to-check-credit-score/
Kate says
I did that, thank you.
Aparently I am clean and have a pretty good score, despite having been on special arrangements of £1 a month for a long time.
My partner has 9 defaults going back to 2020 and 2021. He is now on a DMP. One by one they’ve been settled recently, just waiting to hear about one more.
One is unenforceable and I don’t know how much percentage to expect to pay on that, it’s for £13,000
We only know it’s unenforceable because of taking advice on your website about asking for the CCA
Thank you :)
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So there is no reason to pay anything to an unenforceable debt that is not on your credit record. why would you?
if your partner can’t afford what the lender asks for for the large debt, then he can say so and just stop making debt repayments. Settling this debt will not improve his credit score. he should make sure that all priority debts are cleared and that he done sensible things with the money such as servicing the car and putting some by as an emergency fund rather than stretch to pay an unenforceable debt where interest is not being added.
Obviously if he has inherited a lot of money and is now thinking about mortgages that is different. Then these debts need to be settled. But if it isn’t that much, then it needs to be used wisely.
Kate says
Thank you very much, that’s really helpful 😊
Oxnman says
Hi Sara,
NatWest initially would not entertain my complaint about irresponsible lending as it was too long ago. I pushed my complaint through the ombudsman and they have come back saying this…
Your complaint about National Westminster Bank Plc
I hope you are well. We’ve now got all the information we need to start investigating your complaint.
I recently sent you an email saying that I feel this complaint is one we can look at even though the incident occurred more than six years ago. NatWest have accepted this now as well. But they don’t have any information about your borrowings below other than the amounts and when they were taken out. They don’t hold credit file data, nor do they hold income and expenditure information.
You would need to supply this in order for me to investigate your complaint. Below is the list of loans you were provided. In the unlikely event you have some information from your credit file at that time then please provide this. Otherwise please provide bank statements for the 3 months preceding the loans being taken out.
Any other information which would articulate and evidence why you couldn’t afford the borrowing would also be helpful. If you are unable to provide this by 24 July 2023 then I may need to withdraw the complaint.
Obviously I have no old statements from that long ago.
And definitely don’t have any other paperwork. The last loan was 2008.
But based on what NatWest have said, do you think this loan is unenforceable?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
This is often the problem with very old complaints.
How many loans did you have from them?
Do you still owe money on the last loan? Has it been sold to a debt collector?
Oxnman says
Thank you for replying.
There were 4 loans – 2006, 2 in 2007 and the last in 2008 for 18k each loan paid off the one before.
It is with a debt agency who is work for the client NatWest.
I think there is still 10k remaining but I believe I’ve paid over 20k based on my calculations so not sure how I still have so much left.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Were the loans all increasing in size? How much were you earning at that time – – do you still have tax records, P60s, payslips?
Oxnman says
It started at 6.5k
Then 11k
Then 16k
Then 18k
I would have been earning approx 25k I would have thought. I think maybe 1500/1600 a month take home.
I have no records from back then unfortunately. I have moved a lot of times since and new jobs etc.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Well you can try to argue that the increasing size of the loans in such short succession suggest that they were unaffordable. And ask for the last loan to be written off.
But with no records it’s really hard to see how any refund could be given for the earlier loans.
It is possible that the CCA agreement for the last loan cannot be produced, so it is unenforceable. If Natwest refuses to write the last loan off, I suggest you ask for this, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/ask-cca-agreement-for-debt/
Oxnman says
Who would I argue too my case too?
The ombudsman are likely to cancel the complaint as there is no evidence and NatWest have told me it’s too old to consider any complaint?
I was hoping that I had already paid enough of the debt off to have it settled.
Thank you for all your replies so far. Much appreciated
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Argue it to the Ombudsman. The Ombudsman has a wide power to make a fair decision on the balance of probabilities.
Oxnman says
I have written a quick email to the ombudsman advisor. I guess there is no harm in trying.
If that fails I will try the CCA route.
Thank you so much for your advice.
Phil says
Hi Sara,
I have an unenforceable debt with MBNA which PRA are dealing with but they’re pestering me for a payment plan.
I’ve just taken early reitirement from teaching (I’m 60), I’m on a teacher’s pension of £850 month and will be making that up with some form of casual work, I just had to get out of teaching. The mortgage is paid and we’ve just relocated to another (cheaper) area of the country. I am lucky enough to have some savings from inheritance that will keep me going for a year until work gets sorted. I’ve also put some aside for a new (used) car, and for the future, including healthcare which is quite scary. So really, although I owe the money I don’t want to have to settle the debt unless I have to because I’m trying to save money for the future and security, although I could technically afford to pay it out of savings. It’s £13,500 but it is unenforceable.
I just had a letter from them asking for a payment plan and the whole thing about looking into finances to make sure it’s affordable. I’m not sure I can cope with that right now, I’ve got so much going on and I’m not in a great place. I don’t know how to explain my situation to them. They communicate by email but I’m also having the post redirected. I’ve not told them I’ve moved house recently.
Thank you so much, in advance
Phil
Sara (Debt Camel) says
In the emails/letters asking for a payment plan, do they mention that the debt is currently unenforceable?
Is this debt showing on your credit record, if it is, is there a default date?
Phil says
Hi Sara,
I’m so sorry for replying late, I didn’t get notifications of your reply, and I’ve not been online much either. In answer to your questions, yes they always say that the debt is unenforceable and remind me that the paperwork might reappear, then they contact me a lot to ask for a payment plan to be set up. The default date is 2020. I’m not particularly worried about my credit score, I’m 60 now and have paid off the mortgage so I just want to do what I need to do get by. I am concerned that the debt paperwork reappearing and feel I need to have that amount of money held in the bank in case it ever reappears, although I suppose there would be a payment plan set up at the time.
Thank you very much for your help
Phil
Sara (Debt Camel) says
that is a really recent default date – do you think it is correct?
was the account originally opened a long time ago?
how often are PRA contacting you about this? have you been clear that you won’t be paying the debt while it is unenforceable?
if the paperwork ever does reappear, then yes you could set up a payment plan.
This doesnt seem like a good time to make an offer to settle this old and currently unenforceable debt – if you want to do this it would be better left until work is sorted and you have a new car organised.
My preference is always to update a debt collector with your new address. You will presumably not want to keep paying for post redirection in a a couple of years.
Phil says
Hi Sara,
I apologise again for not getting/seeing notifications. I’ll just have to keep popping on here myself if I’ve asked a question. The default date of 2020 will be when I started having trouble keeping up with the payments. I think the accounts were opened a few years before that.
PRA started contacting me more frequently for some reason, every 2-3 weeks. They were constantly asking for payment plans and budgets. They will be back in touch again soon as I told them to leave me alone as I’d had a close family bereavement. I did tell them I wouldn’t be paying the unenforceable debt but they don’t seems to be listening.
If I set up a payment plan in the future then will they just look at my pension and any other income? They’re not going to delve into needing to have put some money aside for a car and future healthcare are they?
Thank you for your advice on when to potentially settle.
Yes, you’re right, I’ve paid for a year of redirected post but can’t keep it going forever.
Thank you very much :)
Paul says
I had help off here from Sara I think was mbna ask virgin which they combined the debt and I paid £5 a month for an agreed deal on the phone with debt. Collectors called link financial who said they purchased my debt ,,,, not knowing about asking for cca ,, I asked for said cca agreement and received letter after 6 months from asking replies with haven’t got cca agreement and unfortunately was unenforceable but they said legally I was still obliged to pay !! Stopped payments over 2 yrs ago with advice from on here and yes they still send texts and letters but ignore , was told they might sell it on but still unenforceable so I just ignore they can’t take it to court and too be honest it goes to show I been paying a debt for over 10 yrs which they never legally owned so that’s why m sticking to my guns ,, they can’t bad credit you again for a bad debt that’s already been on your credit file ,, the help from on here was great wish I knew sooner hope this helps
Phil says
That’s really helpful Paul, thank you. I wish they’d etc me settle at 5/10% so it would go away.
Just trying to find out what the default date was so I can reply to Sara
Paul says
Hi Phil , mine was defaulted years ago so no longer on my credit file , from
My research and asking Sara on here I had the one letter which they still took my £5 a month payment for another 6 months then received letter saying couldn’t get cca so unfortunately unenforceable but still said in letter I am legally obliged to pay !! I get statements and the odd letter saying please call to set up plan but nothing more in letters saying unenforceable ,, I too was asked for expenditure forms to be filled in and panicked like you are , I just blocked calls and emails so now only letters ,, I was told if they don’t wipe it off they still can sell it on to another debt collector but then same would apply unenforceable so don’t pay for over 2 yrs stopped ,, listen to Sara ,, these so called company’s only paid very small price for your debt and you have no contract with them if it’s also unenforceable,, I think I’m right in what I was advised stop paying stop stressing and worrying and move on with living !! Hope Sara can help you cheers
Phil says
Hi Paul,
Yes, I’d like to be able to stop worrying and move on with living! It does really feel like a big stress having a debt that may or may not rear itself again and even those budgetting forms are painful. Everyone is right, the debt is unenforceable so I should keep replying to them that that is the case and if they get the documents later then they’ll have to have a portion of the income I am now on,.
Thank you :)
Paul says
Ask Sara again but I’m sure you don’t have to fill in any expenditure forms if it’s unenforceable!! And if that is the case they cannot get anything unless you agree it so double. Check with Sara advice on this cheers
Helen G says
Likewise with Link. Have been told CCA not available so stopped paying. Fairly frequent contact from Link but I ignore both emails and ‘phone messages. Probably about three years since I last made any payment.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Does every communication from Link asking for payment say the debt is unenforceable?
Helen G says
Hi Sarah
The most recent letter from Link was June 2023 and does not say the debt is unenforceable. The main thrust of the letter asks me to contact them to arrange some form of payment. The letter in March 2023 again does not say the debt is unenforceable and states as I am not maintaining payments the whole amount is due. Again they are encouraging me to contact them!!
Helen G
PS The letter dated March 23 is given under notice of CCA 1974 for whatever that means.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The March letter is in a fixed format set by legislation.
But you could complain about that June letter – it is in breach of the regulator’s rules. If you do this, they may decide to write the debt off completely so all letters would stop.
Email complaints@linkfinancial.co.uk and say:
————————————————–
I am complaining that you have sent me communications about a debt which is currently unenforceable as you are unable to produce the CCA agreement, but these communications do not mention that the debt is currently unenforceable as you are unable to produce the CCA agreement. I attach a photo of the latest letter.
I draw your attention to CONC 13.1.6 (4) which says:
“The firm should, in any request for payment or communication relating to a payment (other than a statement issued in accordance with the CCA or regulations made under it which does not constitute or contain a request for payment) in such cases, make clear to the customer that although the debt remains outstanding it is unenforceable.”
This letter is in breach of this FCA rule. And any future letters will also be in breach of the Consumer Duty.
Unless you stop sending me these letters I will be complaining to the Financial Ombudsman and asking for compensation.
Eva says
Thanks for this advice. I have had 2 debts written off this past year using this complaint for unenforceable debts. It’s remarkable (and stressful!) how the DCA continued to threaten doorstep collections etc. even when unenforceable, but this complaint has worked. Accounts closed and a balance of £0.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Good!
Clive says
Hi Sara
I am in the same situation whereby I get letters but no mention of the debt being unenforceable.
By sending my creditors the same letter would that restart the 6 year clock
Sara (Debt Camel) says
yes… but the debt is already unenforceable. And complaining may get the creditor to agree to write off the debt. It’s up to you, if you don’;t care about these letters, then ignore them.
Phil says
Hi Clive (or Sara)
Could you explain about the 6yr clock pelase and what might restart it?
Thank you
Sara (Debt Camel) says
see https://debtcamel.co.uk/statute-barred-debt/#Think_of_a_timer_that_runs_for_6_years_%E2%80%93_which_can_be_reset which looks at this
Phil says
Interesting read, thank you for posting. I had a few questions about my own situation but I’m going to read it a few more times before I waste your time.
Thank you
Helen G says
Morning Sarah
Thanks for the good advice regarding complaints to the Financial Ombudsmen. I have today emailed Link formally complaining as set out above. I’ll keep in touch once Link respond.
Thanks
Helen G
Paul says
Hi Helen id like to keep an eye on this too see how you get on as am same situation ignored but they still try now and again with letters , blocked emails and calls and texts so far for over 2 yrs ,, good luck
Steve says
Hi Sara,
I currently have an outstanding debt of £34k with Intrum. The debt default 6 years ago and is no longer on my credit file. I make my payments through StepChange.
I requested a copy of my CCA via email on the 4th Sept and got a reply on the 6th Sept advising they are working on requesting the CCA with the original creditor. As of today I have not received anything. A couple of questions;
1. Is email correspondence ok, I see many request on here asking ok writing and sending a £1 postal order.
2. How long should I wait before chasing up with Intrum.
Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
What sort of debt was this? Who was the lender?
Some creditors don’t care about the £1 payment. It’s always best to make the request by letter and send the money just in case, but yours may be ok.
The debt is unenforceable if you don’t get a copy of the agreement within 12 working days of asking – the creditor can’t enforce the debt in court until they do send a true copy to you.
Did Intrum say something like
“we acknowledge the 12 day time limit to provide this information but as we have to request the details from the original lender we anticipate that we will not be able to provide this within 12 days but hope that within 40 days we will have retrieved the information to comply with your request.” ?
Steven says
Hi Sarah,
The original debt was a personal loan with Tesco Finance.
Intrum responded back to me on the 6th Sept with the follow,
“What Happens Next
We will contact the original creditor to request your credit agreement in relation to this account. It may take them several weeks for them to gather this information.”
There was no mention of 12 days up to 40. As of today it’s been 30 days since they have responded with anything and still no CCA.
Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok, I suggest reply saying “Can you confirm that this debt is currently unenforceable and will remain so until you provide me with a true copy of the CCA agreement”
I am afraid you should not assume this is unlikely to be produced for at least anoer couple of months. But it is good to confirm that they are treating your request as a formal request for the CCA.
Steven says
Thanks Sara, I have learnt to never assume anything. I will follow them up and see what comes back. Thank you
Nothing says
Hello. I am new here, and obviously have a debt problem.
The original creditor is Amazon(New day card). The original Debt was £900. It was bought by Cabot, the current debt is £1060, including interest.
This is a tiny fraction of my total debts. And I cant afford to pay.
I requested CCA in June. Today, 9th of November, I have received a copy of CCA, with my name, address on it. but no signature.
My question is— is this CCA valid? thanks.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
see https://debtcamel.co.uk/ask-cca-agreement-for-debt/#How_can_you_tell_if_it_is_right
Eva says
HI Sara
What is your advice for a DCA that hasn’t given any information following a request for a copy of the CCA? I made the request end of May 2022, and this request was acknowledged by the DCA in June 2022, stating that they had asked the original creditor for the documents and they were hoping to provide them within 12 days but failing that would provide an update after 40 days if nothing was forthcoming. I have heard nothing since, despite repeated requests. I have moved several times this past year, but always updated the DCA with details; all recorderd delivery, and all updated addresses were delivered. My last request for an update was a month ago, but I am still waiting for a response. Should I complain to the DCA? Contact the original creditor myself and ask for the documents?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Do not contact the original creditor – you don’t want the documents, you want the debt collector to be unable to produce them.
Are you making payments to the DCA?
Does the debt collector own the debt or re they collecting on behalf of the the lender? Who are they?
Eva says
Yes, I’m still making token payments, because I have had no letter from the DCA confirming that it’s unenforceable.
It’s owned by the DCA (Lowell). I have the notice of assignment from both parties.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
so you need to complain to Lowell.
I suggest you email I suggest you email a complaint to support@lowellgroup.co.uk cc it to ashley.wynn@lowellgroup.co.uk with “COMPLAINT re CCA request” as the title
Saying (you can put this into your own words and add any other dates etc) :
I sent you a request to produce the CCA agreement for my debt [give a refrence number or something that will identify it in May 2022 and you acknowledged it in June 22, saying you would provide the CCA or an update within 40 days.
You haven’t provided either. I have asked repeatedly [how? email? letter?] for update, the last was a month ago.
Can you please confirm that these debts are currently unenforceable in court as you cannot produce a copy of the CCA agreement.
I draw your attention to CONC 13.1.6 which says that:
“(1) Failure to comply with the provisions means that the agreement becomes unenforceable while the failure to comply persists, and the courts have no discretion to allow enforcement.
(2) In such cases, a firm should in no way, either by act or omission, mislead a customer as to the enforceability of the agreement.”
If I have to send this complaint to the Financial Ombudsman I will be asking for compensation for poor customer complaint handling and treatment.”