In 2021, the Instant Cash Loans (ICL) Scheme Arrangement, Money Shop, Payday UK and Payday Express customers whose debts were sold to PRAC Financial (PRAC) have not been given set-off between their ICL redress and the loan they still owe.
The same situation could occur with other Schemes of Arrangement and other debt collectors. In 2022, it seems to have happened to some Provident loans that were sold to Lowell.
It could also arise in administrations, for example Sunny loans that were sold to SLL Capital.
This article looks at this and suggests how affected customers may be able to make a complaint to the Financial Ombudsman (FOS).
NB what is suggested here is not of general use where a debt has been sold. See the When NOT to make this complaint section at the end.
Contents
Money Shop, Payday UK and Payday Express debts sold to PRAC
Customers of the Money Shop, Payday UK and Payday Express have been able to make a claim to the ICL Scheme for unaffordable lending.
Where their claim is upheld and a cash refund is due, they are expected to receive about 4% of the proper refund in May/June 2021.
When money is still owed to ICL
Where someone has an outstanding debt to ICL:
- any refunds are first used to repay the balance owed through the right of set-off;
- the “only 4%” part is then applied to the rest of the refund after set off.
An example shows how this works. Suppose you owe ICL £400 and your refund should be £1000. If the £400 of the £1000 refund is used to clear your loan, you will then receive 4% of the remaining £600 = £24 in cash. That is much better than receiving 4% of £1000 = £40 and still owing £400.
So this set-off gives a good result for the customer – much better than getting a very slightly larger cash refund now but still owing a large balance.
What happens when the loan was sold
But what happens when ICL had previously sold the loan to a debt collector, so the customer owes it to the debt collector, not ICL?
ICL has tried to reach an agreement with all the debt collectors it has used so that this “set off” can still be applied. This seems to have worked with all the debt collectors with the exception of PRAC.
If your loan was sold to one of the other debt collectors, ICL is offering you the choice between having the loan set off or getting the 4% on the large amount and still owing the balance to the debt collector. Most people will be much better off if they choose the set-off!
I don’t know why this hasn’t been possible with PRAC. ICL is explaining this to PRAC customers as follows:
You currently have a balance outstanding on a loan that one of our firms originally provided, which we subsequently assigned to PRAC, a debt purchaser. If we had not assigned the loan, you would have been able to set off your redress against that loan.
However, since PRAC is the legal owner of that debt we are unable to apply set off and must therefore pay you the dividend amount, which we expect to be around 4p/£.
You may if you wish decide to use your dividend payment to pay down your outstanding balance with PRAC, but that is a matter for you and is something which must be done outside of the Scheme.
PRAC customers will be a lot worse off because of this.
The legal background – equitable set-off
I am not a solicitor. And I am not suggesting a customer needs to go to court about this. This is just provided as some background to what follows.
Equitable set-off applies where two claims are so closely connected that it would be manifestly unjust for one claim to be enforced without it being reduced or extinguished by the other claim.
The ICL redress obligation arose at the point of creating the loan from a breach of OFT/FCA affordability regulations resulting in an unfair relationship under the Consumer Credit Act. The loan owed by the customer to PRAC and the redress owed by ICL to the customer arose at the same time from the same contract so they are closely connected. It is arguably manifestly unjust to not allow set-off in this situation as the loan was originally mis-sold.
What can customers do?
Complain to PRAC
I think you should complain to PRAC and to their agent BW Legal.
Send an email to Info@Prac.co.uk and complaints@bwlegal.co.uk with COMPLAINT as the title.
- Give the PRAC/BW Legal reference number for the loan where you still owe a balance.
- Say the ICL Scheme has determined that this loan was mis-sold and that you were due a redress total of £x from ICL. Attach the email or a copy of a letter you have from ICL that shows this total.
- Ask for this to be set-off against the balance you owe PRAC.
- And ask for all negative information on your credit record to be removed.
This is a simple email. You don’t need to explain why you think you have a legal case for this or go into details about all your previous borrowing from ICL.
If rejected, send it to FOS
If PRAC or BW Legal rejects the complaint, send it immediately to the Financial Ombudsman (FOS).
At FOS your complaint is against PRAC Financial Limited, even if BW Legal responded to your complaint. BW Legal are just PRAC’s agent.
Send the complaint to FOS even if PRAC/BW Legal sent you an impressive-looking lot of legal stuff about why you do not have a valid complaint.
In your FOS complaint say that PRAC is behaving unfairly by not allowing you equitable set-off between the ICL redress. Attach the decision from ICL about your redress and the rejection from PRAC/BW Legal.
FOS looks at what is fair and reasonable in a case. This is not the same as what a court might decide so you do not need to make a legal argument to FOS. One of the FCA’s core principles is that “A firm must pay due regard to the interests of its customers and treat them fairly“.
Some questions
“Will this work?” I hope so! But I haven’t seen any complaints like this so far.
“What if they take me to court?” Once you have a complaint in with PRAC/BW Legal they should not start a court case against you. This includes if you have an open case at the Ombudsman, which is why you should immediately send a rejection to FOS. Leave a comment below this article if they threaten to start a court case.
“What if I already have a CCJ from BW Legal” Add a sentence to your complaint email asking for the CCJ to be set aside.
Any other questions – ask them in the comments below this article.
Other Schemes & Administrations
This situation could occur in other Schemes and with other debt collectors. But it may not – all the other debt collectors in the ICL case co-operated with ICL to provide set-off.
It could also potentially arise after administrations. For example, a lot of Sunny loans were sold to SLL Capital. If the Elevate Credit administrators have told you the value of your potential redress for Sunny loans, you could ask SLL to reduce your balance in set off.
When NOT to make this complaint
This sort of complaint won’t work if you have already repaid the loan to the debt collector. Set-off only applies if you have a balance.
If the lender is still operating, you need to make an affordability complaint to the lender, not a complaint to the debt collector. If you win the complaint with the lender, directly or through the ombudsman, the lender will calculate your refund taking account of the balance and what you have paid the debt collector.
When the lender has gone into administration, you need to make a claim to the administrators and wait until you get a response from them.
If you do not have an affordability complaint, this complaint to a debt collector is not relevant.
The ICL Scheme of arrangement
Sunny in administration – what is happening
Letters from a debt collector?
Indie5018 says
I cannot get my head around why PRAC is sold a debt, I take it much lower than it’s worth but you then owe them the outstanding sum and not the bank. I took the loan out with a bank not with this debt company and if they bought the debt cheap is there any readdress for me. Another thing that bothers me is why a debt company wants to know if you owe anyone else like PRAC they connected another bank and bought the debt of them so I have 2 loans that I have to pay don’t have a problem with that but do have a problem with the debt being sold to debt company for a lower amount and they want the full debt when technically the loans are the banks.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I took the loan out with a bank not with this debt company and if they bought the debt cheap is there any readdress for me.
No there isn’t. See https://debtcamel.co.uk/sold-to-dca/ for details.
Lee says
I have a question around these loans, they date back to circa 2007-2008 and have since been statute barred
I then was invited to make a claim as I presumed these were paid I wasn’t aware a balance was still outstanding
My claim was upheld and they have off set the loans as below (3 loans)
Redress amount £ 1302.90
Current outstanding balance £ 1366.37
Outstanding balance after redress applied £ 63.47
am i now liable for the minimal £63.47 even though its been statue barred
is this correct what they have done?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Who is the balance with, ICL?
Lee says
Correct with ICL
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Just reply saying the debt is statute barred and you won’t be paying the balance.
dawn pugh says
What does this mean exactly, what if all loans were paid ? What percentage should be expected?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Have you made a claim to ICL? Were any of your debts sold to debt collectors?
dawn pugh says
Yes a claim was made and they said they would make payments in may so not sure what it all means
Sara (Debt Camel) says
did you have a last unpaid loan that was sold to a debt collector?
If you didn’t, then the article above isn’t relevant. ICL are expected to be paying out in May and you should get about 4% of the total ICL told you about.
Liam says
Hi Sara,
I had a loan taken around 2017 with PDUK which was then took over by BW LEGAL with an outstanding balance of:
Our Client: Instant Cash Loans Ltd
Reference Number: T0856128
Balance Due: £253.48
Original Account Number: 22913045
I’m not sure what I now need to do as I have a mental illness and addiction but looking for some advice if possible.
Thanks,
Liam
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Did you make a claim to the ICL scheme for unaffordable loans from PDUK, PD Express or the money shop?
Liam says
I do believe so only email I can find is the below but I’ve heard nothing since.
Hello,
Thank you for your email.
Once we have completed our assessment of your claim, we’ll write to tell you the outcome; your outcome letter will tell you if you are entitled to any compensation. You can expect to receive your initial outcome letter in the first half of 2020.
We expect to be able to confirm the actual compensation amounts each customer will be paid by the second half of 2020.This is because we need to know the total amount of claims before we will be able to tell our customers what percentage of their claim will be paid. The funds will be shared out proportionately across all customers who are entitled to compensation.
If you have any further questions regarding your claim in the meantime, please do not hesitate to call us on 020 3901 7440.
Many thanks,
I’ve not had any compensation or any email since getting this.
I don’t quite understand it all just want it off my credit file.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I think you should contact them and ask if your complaint has been decided yet: email scheme@themoneyshop.co.uk, or call the Helpline on 020 3901 7440
Andrew P says
I’ve sent emails to both as advised today Sara ( and I know how many people say it but please be aware of how many people you help with this site and how grateful all of us are because of it especially with the emphasis on debt which none of us are proud of but so reassuring to see so many recovering from it by the interactions on this site ). I will await responses from both but if I do receive a negative response rather than tell them I will take it up with FOS can I suggest court action my end to amend credit file and outstanding amount removed or is this a step too far?! It’s nice to feel you have the upper hand for a change even though I’ve paid £1000’s for the privilege!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I wouldn’t suggest court action. FOS can take a broader view of what is fair in a case than a court will. Equitable set off is a defence if you are sued. And it’s complicated!
Jo M says
I’ve got a few loans upheld with ICL but sold to BW, they even entered a CCJ against me using an old address so I couldn’t defend it, very shady. I’ve already verbally said roughly what you’ve outlined here and they were having none of it, I will send the email now as well and see what they come back with!
Charlotte says
Hi Sara, received this email today from my ICL claim..
We explained previously that the Potential Redress figure would be the maximum amount payable for your claim, and that it was likely you would only receive a proportion of that. We also told you that you may be eligible to use your redress to pay off any outstanding balance.
We are now able to confirm that we will be using your redress to reduce your outstanding debt to Instant Cash Loans. This is important to you because your outstanding debt will be reduced by the full amount of your redress, whereas a cash payment would only be for a proportion of that amount (this is likely to be 4p cash for every £1 of redress).
I don’t believe I have any outstanding debt with them. Is this a generic email do you think? If I ask them to tell me what debt they are offsetting it from will they tell me?
Thanks
Charlotte
Jackie says
I got the exact email and I too do not have any outstanding loans with ICL so hopefully it is generic email,I too responded telling them I don’t have any outstanding loans, could they confirm this
Lisa says
I have the exact same problem my email says I have outstanding loan with PRAC which I do not I have email proof of it being fully paid I don’t know what I’m meant to do money shop are saying nothing to do with them so confused
Kim says
Hi snap I have just received exact email as yourself today
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Lots of people have got this email today and think they shouldn’t have… see the comments on the Money Shop Scheme page: https://debtcamel.co.uk/money-shop-to-close-two-million-customers-will-be-informed/
Rachel says
Thanks for this Sara! I’ve sent the email to PRAC/BW now, fingers crossed. I will update on the outcome
sankung says
how can i make a claim i just saw this and i have taken continuos loans from money shop and pay day uk aswell
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I am sorry but the deadline for making a claim was last year.
Justin says
I am slightly confused about how this works. So write to illustrate what happened to me and what steps I took this is what happened with Sunny (ECIL). All I know is that ECIL of which I have a valid claim under the admin, (on a closed account long since paid off loan), sold some of their outstanding loans to Perch Capital, at Admin. I had a loan with Springcoin of £3,900 in 2015 (which became AvantCredit) – this loan was sold to Asset Collections & Investigations (ACI) in 2017, a subsidiary now I believe of Perch Capital since last year. AvantCredit finally admitted my loan taken out in 2015, was unaffordable in 2020, and through some payments, and interest writes off redress etc, and my balance was some £1600 at ACI.
My argument was that Perch should have bought all debts ECIL owed and well as money owed to them and I proceeded to threatened to manually offset against my existing ACI debt. I have a valid full claim amount with ECIL of £911.05 and therefore threatened to enforce setoff of this £911.05, against my existing ACI debt of £1600, on the basis that Perch is the common company here. The result was I believe in part the reason that they wrote off the remaining £1600, which was actually the complete capital of the £3,900 originally borrowed. This is in theory me utilising the offsetting rules but in an informal manner. The good news is that my claim with Sunny/ECIL is still there and so I will eventually get 4% or whatever the £911.05 comes to when they finally pay up!
My rule is never to give up and push and push these companies even if it takes years and years and years. It has transpired that AvantCredit misled the FOS in my original complaint in 2017 and only came to light through a Data Subject Access Request (DSAR) in 2020 which evidenced on their own Share data on Credit File, that they completely ignored things on my credit files such as 16 credit applications (Hard searches) in the preceding year and 11 credit refusals. I would encourage everyone to perform full DSAR on whichever loan complaint they have as FOS does not do this as standard. You must always persist as if someone is withholding information as usually, they are!
Additionally doing such a DSAR as early as possible is imperative if a company goes or is going into Admin as often such documents get ‘lost’ in my experience.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
My argument was that Perch should have bought all debts ECIL owed
That sounds rather confused. The debts that have been settled are no longer owed. A debt purchaser would never buy them.
This is in theory me utilising the offsetting rules but in an informal manner.
Indeed – you have effectively been given the right of equitable set off which I explain in the article above without having used that phrase.
The good news is that my claim with Sunny/ECIL is still there and so I will eventually get 4% or whatever the £911.05 comes to when they finally pay up!
The bad news is that the Sunny administrators are expecting to pay less than 1%
Justin says
Apologies Sara, it can get quite confusing….I think I was meaning all ECIL debts including ones that might later become debts, such as my full value claim with them of £911.05 under the Admin, as I regard that as a debt that ECIL owe me. I think I am expecting equitable liability (set-off) to happen at source, automatically (without request), which I know is asking a bit too much in other cases going forwards.
I know that goes against how companies often work where assets are moved onto another company (or any money owed to them), but debts that they owe not, which is often how they set up the admin.
For Sunny, not really that surprised at this. Hopefully will get some payout from ICL as well with my claim there.
Darwin says
Hi Sara
My loan with Moneyshop (2013) was upheld under the scheme, but it was earlier sold to PRAC (BWlegal) in 2017 who had promptly registered a CCJ on it when I was out of the country. On coming back, I paid the CCJ (£600) and its marked satisfied on my file.
Now since this full loan has been upheld under the scheme as unaffordable, I asked both Moneyshop and BW to remove the ccj. Moneyshop referred me to BW and washed their hands off it. BW wrote to me saying I can apply to have it set aside myself and they will provide a consent order for the set aside. But neither will they have it set aside themselves, nor will they refund me the £600 I paid even though the full loan has been upheld as affordable lending.
Should i complaint o FOS about BW asking for BW to approach the court and set aside my CCJ + refund my £600 with interest? Or should I do as BW has asked me to?
Many Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
BW legal are not going to refund the £600 even if you get the CCJ set aside.
As the article above says This sort of complaint won’t work if you have already repaid the loan to the debt collector. Set-off only applies if you have a balance. You no longer have a balance.
An N244 application to set aside the CCJ costs £255 without consent and £100 with consent (see https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/904862/ex50-eng.pdf). You can get help with the fee if you are on a low income. National Debtline on 0808 808 4000 can explain how to complete the n244 form and what the consent order should look like.
You can take a complaint to FOS if BW Legal refuse to set aside the CCJ themselves. I am not sure if you will win the FOS case. A FOS complaint will cost BW Legel more than £600 so even if BW legal won the FOS case they would be worse off, but they may play hardball here and reject your complaint guessing that you will give up and not take it to FOS.
If you don’t get it set aside, the CCJ will drop off your credit record after 6 years so in 2023?
EDIT set aside application costs rose to £275 in October 2021
Darwin says
Yes, the ccj will drop off in 2023 but I would like it to be removed asap since now there is good reason to do so.
I didnt’ understand the last para about the FOS. Do you mean that given everything above, I have a strong case to escalate to FOS (asking for BW to undertake the set-aside process, and refund me £600 as well)? Or should I simply take the BW offer of no refund, but a mere consent to set aside (and I having to approach the court myself to set aside).
Many thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I do not know if you would win a FOS case. If you would get the £600 refunded, FOS would expect the CCJ to be set aside, but as I said, you are not going to get this refunded. So FOS may think BW legal has done enough by offering you a consent order – or you may win your complaint.
It’s up to you if you want to try to push BW Legal by saying you will go to FOS? And actually doing this? Or if you would rather get this all sorted as soon as possible by getting on with the consent order/set aside.
Karen McKenzie says
My last two loans with Sunny were sold to Lantern. The administrator has just advised me that these won’t be written off and that I have to still pay them – even though all of my other loans have been taken into account in the redress figure – is that correct?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Are the administrators saying these last two loans were unaffordable so they are included in the redress total? But because they were sold earlier you still have to pay them?
Karen says
This is what they said
I can confirm we have taken all your loans in to account when completing our review, however please note this is an Unsecured Creditor Claim, and not an affordability complaint. Since entering in to administration, we no longer have the facilities to investigate affordability complaints, therefore any redress paid is not an admission that your loans were mis-sold.
As your loans were legally assigned to Lantern UK after remaining in arrears for an extended period of time, we are no longer the owners and therefore have no authority on the management of your account moving forward. You will need to speak with Lantern UK directly regarding your case and it will be their decision as to whether any balance should be written off.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok, do you know if they have deleted the defaults on the last two loans? or deleted the loans entirely from your credit record?
Karen says
They still show on my Credit Karma report
Sara (Debt Camel) says
have you looked on an Experian report or Equifax? See https://debtcamel.co.uk/best-way-to-check-credit-score/
Karen says
No not lately sorry
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You can make a complaint to Lantern saying you should have had the right of equitable set off against the redress calculated by the Sunny administrators. As the article above says. Attach the email from the administrators which had the redress total amount on it.
I don’t know if this will work but it seems worth a try.
I suggest you look at Experian & Equifax. You can get the loans removed from your credit records by asking the CRAs to “suppress” them, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/correct-credit-records-lender-administration/
Jo says
Since PRAC is the legal owner of that debt we are unable to apply set off and must therefore pay you the dividend amount, which we expect to be around 4p/£. You may if you wish decide to use your dividend payment to pay down your outstanding balance with PRAC, but that is a matter for you and is something which must be done outside of the Scheme.
We confirm that the Scheme of Arrangement is a separate matter. As Instant Cash Loans (ICL) have not requested to buy back the outstanding balance and issue compensation the balance remains due and owing. Any compensation that you will be awarded from the scheme of arrangment will be sent to you directy from ICL for to to choose how to spend, however as stated this is likey to be 4p for every £1.00 stated in your potencial redress figure, this can be used to offset against the balance but will need to do this.
Please be aware that the the debt was sold on 9 December 2016 and the County Court Judgment with an admission for the full balance was entered on 3 October 2017 prior to the current circumstances of the original credtior. Since then £xxx has been received regarding this balance, therefore due the the full admission of the balance the CCJ will remain along with your credit file information until its expiry. However should you wish to make an offer of a settlement to resolve the matter sooner we can review this.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Is this a reply from PRAC/BW Legal to a complaint from you?
Andrew P says
It would have been. Mine was very similar other than they had not received anything from ICL to say loan was missold. They came back to say this is their final decision.
We confirm that as this is the case your balance remains due and owing as the Scheme of Arrangement is a separate matter.
‘However our client is willing to resolve the matter with a generious settlement offer of £270.00 to resolve the matter, should you wish to accept this offer please confirm to us within 7 days to set up the arrangement.’
This is a loan with £1078 outstanding
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Can you afford £270?
What are the rest of your finances like at the moment?
Andrew P says
I can. Luckily I’m back on track now. They have said they don’t have the credit agreement so to that end they can’t come after me. I was more intent on getting anything negative removed from credit file rather than a partially satisfied. Am I just being pig headed and the sensible thing to get it resolved? I don’t ‘need’ my credit score for anything presently and it’s more a point of principle. If settling is the best thing I could get them to reduce it more I think
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If you couldn’t afford it it wouldn’t be sensible to accept it.
You could counter offer? Or say you will accept if the debt is removed from your credit record? It’s hard to guess, sorry.
Andrew P says
As you suggested Sara BW came back with what was expected and so have sent it to FOS. I guess with this if they lose one they lose all? If it goes the way we want it’s going to be an expensive outcome for PRAC. I assume FOS will make a blanket decision so maybe the wait might not be so long as ‘normal’ cases
Jo says
Same with me, I am going to the FOS also, let’s hope we get somewhere BW legal are very hard to deal with even saying they will continue enforcement despite me sending proof of FOS escalation and my active complaint with them :/
Jo says
Here’s the MD’s email, FYI also the MD at PRAC!
Jo says
Finally got a response from BW Legal, they are now threatening to enforce CCJ, should I enter into a payment plan with them or escalate to the FOS, id rather do the latter!
We confirm that the Scheme of Arrangement is a separate matter. As Instant Cash Loans (ICL) have not requested to buy back the outstanding balance and issue compensation the balance remains due and owing. Any compensation that you will be awarded from the scheme of arrangment will be sent to you directy from ICL for to to choose how to spend, however as stated this is likey to be 4p for every £1.00 stated in your potencial redress figure, this can be used to offset against the balance but will need to do this.
Please be aware that the the debt was sold on 9 December 2016 and the County Court Judgment with an admission for the full balance was entered on 3 October 2017 prior to the current circumstances of the original credtior. Since then £xxx has been received regarding this balance, therefore due the the full admission of the balance the CCJ will remain along with your credit file information until its expiry. However should you wish to make an offer of a settlement to resolve the matter sooner we can review this.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So how much was this last loan that defaulted? How much did you pay to it at ICL? How much have you paid to BW Legal? What is the current balance?
Jo says
Here is the MD’s email of anyone needs it I included her on my complaint email, she is also the MD at PRAC, funny that! RWithers@bwlegal.co.uk
Jo says
It was for £600 I believe, nothing paid to ICL, complaint upheld with them on all loans bar 1 (not passed to PRAC / BW) balance now £830, £190 paid to BW but iv stopped payment a while back due to the ICL complaint, I’ve now sent them an email again, say how unfair and unjust it is now allowing equatable set off and escalated to FOS.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
and what was the total redress calculated by ICL?
Jo says
£1385 :) across all loans Sarah.
Jo says
After some rather lengthy legal emails between me and BW; they have backed down a little and offered me 50% off; but they still haven’t properly responded to my question around equitable set off; I’m going to send them one more back but they did add this part which is a little concerning?
‘ Please note that should we receive correspondence from the Financial Ombudsman Service we would be happy to open communications with them over the matter. However you should note that as this is a post legal matter the Financial Ombudsman Service have no jurisdiction over litigated cases.’
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Did you defend the CCJ or did you get a judgment by default?
Jo says
Sarah, it was entered without my knowledge, so I wasn’t able to defend it, so they would have won by default.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If you had defended the CCJ and lost it is unlikely that FOS would look at it. But that isn’t what happened.
I suggest you reply that the CCJ was entered by default as you were unaware of it and in any case new evidence has arisen since then about the unaffordability of the ICL lending, so you would expect that FOS would look at your case.
Jo says
Thanks Sarah, I will send a reply in the morning and let you know :)
Jo says
Sarah, after enough lengthy email from myself, BW Legal / PRAC have finally agreed to place my account on hold and actually look at the equitable set-off complaint, before they refused. They have already halved the balance and are now behaving more sensibly. I would urge anyone else here to really hammer back at them, they are tough, very tough, I’m sure they are aware and possibly this is their tactic. Anyway, this is the latest update from them. ‘We confirm that all points raised will be addressed with a written response, the account will be placed on hold during this time’
Andrew P says
I tried to get a further reduction on the £1,078 I owed on last loan with Express but no good!
We write in reference to the above matter. Unfortunately your settlement offer of £150.00 has been declined by our Client, however they are prepared to accept £270.00 in partial settlement of the outstanding balance. The above mentioned payment must be received in full, in cleared funds, no later than 11 June 2021. Once the discounted payment has been received in cleared funds on time, this will bring this matter to a close and the Principal Balance will no longer be pursued. If your account is reported to credit bureaux by our client, your credit file will be marked as partially satisfied. If our client does not report to credit bureaux in relation to this account then please disregard this point.
They have said previously that they cannot produce the CCA agreement. Is it possible they could receive it from ICL at any point down the line or will that not happen? I emailed ICL this question but as yet no reply.
I will probably settle but would prefer not to as mentioned before all loans upheld with redress amount around £7,000 but I might use my £280 to put this to bed
Sara (Debt Camel) says
This is from PRAC / BW Legal?
Does the debt show on your credit record? Does it have a default date?
Andrew P says
Yes from PRAC/BW. Showing on credit record with a default date of November 2016
Sara (Debt Camel) says
so the debt will drop off in Nov 2022. If they cant produce the CCA agreement, then you dion’t have to pay it. Paying a defaulted debt does not improve your credit score, but may make some lenders more prepared to lend to you. It’s up to you iof you think it’s worth paying £270 for that.
I can’t imagine ICl will be spending time trying to find CCA agreement to send to PRAC – they are trying to do as little as possible and close everything down. It’s not totally impossible though.
Shelley says
Dear Sarah
If someone has borrowed from The Money Shop and the debt has then been sold on to PRAC but the borrower did not submit a claim to the ICL scheme and has now missed the deadline. Are they able to get any redress and/or is it worth them complaining to the FOS>?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You can’t really argue for equitable set off as there is no sum to set off against. How large is the debt you owe PRCA and how old is it? What are the rest of your finances like?
Shelley says
Hi Sarah
The debt was originally £119 approx and now stands at around £224.
The debt was assigned to PRAC on 9.12.2016 so it is older than that. There is a CCJ.
There are other debts to other creditors of around £27k
Rachel says
Sorry I forgot to ask if I get nowhere with this and want the original default date adding (rather that -2016- than having another 6 years of missed payments recorded), who would do it. The default was issues by the original lender who no longer exist and PRAC are ignoring my request
Sara (Debt Camel) says
My guess is that you will get “somewhere” with this – and as part of that you can ask for a default to be added back in 2016.
Rachel says
Sorry Sara I don’t understand what you mean. Can you explain a bit more please? Sorry to keep asking you questions, I am so grateful for all you do
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Sorry I wasn’t clear. At the moment you have a money problem – owing PRAC – and a credit record problem. If you resolve the money problem the chances are that that will resolve the credit record problem as a side effect.
In the end you would be able to partially resolve the credit problem by getting the credit reference agencies to “suppress” the ICL record, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/correct-credit-records-lender-administration/. But you would then have to make PRAC do the same. Really it is probably easier to directly tackle the money problem first.
Jacqui says
Hi there,
I wondered if you could offer some advice. I had all the emails etc about the scheme from ICL and completed everything etc. I’ve now received a small payout by way of a cheque (even though I gave them my bank details). However, the last I heard, a small amount outstanding on the loan was passed to PRAC/BW Legal. The last letter I recieved about this amount was dated 2018 and I’ve heard nothing since. The letter did offer a small discount which I was still unable to deal with at the time, and stated that if the payment wasn’t made, it would be considered for further action (CCJ), but as I’ve said, I never heard anything more from them once all the ICL redress etc started. Nothing was mentioned in the letter I received from ICL about an outstanding amount, and the outstanding balance section on the letter even said ‘N/A’.
So my question is, does this mean this isn’t owed anymore or have PRAC just gone quiet because of the scheme etc? Seems odd that they wouldn’t chase this amount, no matter how small. My redress is less than what was owed, however.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I don’t know why they have gone quiet.
I suggest you plan to keep the emails from ICL about your redress and if PRAC do pop up again, you then use the argument about equitable set off off explained in the article above.
Jo says
ive heard nothing from PRAC for several weeks, despite chasing i think they maybe thinking about what they will do with us all.
Katie says
Followed the advice on this page and complained to PRAC. Just had the following response:
Good AFternoon
We write in reference to your recent correspondence.
Please note in the correspondence issued by Instant Cash Loans Ltd in the ‘Decision in Principle’ letter on page 3 it states the following;
You currently have a balance outstanding on a loan that one of our firms originally provided, which we subsequently assigned to PRAC, a debt purchaser. If we had not assigned the loan, you would have been able to set off your redress against that loan. However, since PRAC is the legal owner of that debt we are unable to apply set off and must therefore pay you the dividend amount, which we expect to be around 4p/£. You may if you wish decide to use your dividend payment to pay down your outstanding balance with PRAC, but that is a matter for you and is something which must be done outside of the Scheme.
Should you wish to discuss the details of the Scheme of Arrangement you must do this with Instant Cash Loans as this is a process we are not involved in. Please note that although you are not able to off set the redress against the outstanding balance you are eligble to a cash dividend. Please note that for any further updates we must await the conclusion of the Scheme of Arrangement.
Can anyone de-code this?!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
This response doesn’t tell you you have the right to go to the Financial Ombudsman? If it doesn’t, I suggest you reply saying:
“Is this your final reply to my complaint? Because I see you have not informed me of my right to take it to the Financial Ombudsman?”
Katie says
Thanks so much.
I swear they try and make it as complicated and unreadable as possible!
Rachel says
Response from prac We write in reference to your recent correspondence.
Please note that the attached letter is an outdated version of the correspondence in the latest correspondence that shoud have been issued to you by Instant Cash Loans Ltd in the ‘Decision in Principle’ letter on page 3 it states the following.You currently have a balance outstanding on a loan that one of our firms originally provided, which we subsequently assigned to PRAC, a debt purchaser. If we had not assigned the loan, you would have been able to set off your redress against that loan. However, since PRAC is the legal owner of that debt we are unable to apply set off and must therefore pay you the dividend amount, which we expect to be around 4p/£. You may if you wish decide to use your dividend payment to pay down your outstanding balance with PRAC, but that is a matter for you and is something which must be done outside of the Scheme.Therefore please be aware that you will only receive 4% of the figure stated to you by Instant Cash Loans (estimated to be £64.36). This will be awarded to you in a cash dividend directly from the creditor which you can use to reduce the balance on file, however this is your choice.We confirm that as this is the case your balance remains due and owing as the Scheme of Arrangement is a separate matter, once the outstanding balance has been paid your credit file will be updated.’
Rachel says
The only letter I’ve received from ICL was the decision in principle letter that I attached in my original email to prac asking for them to accept the redress
Sara (Debt Camel) says
See my reply to Katie above – go back and ask if that is their final response to your complaint as you will be sending it to the Finacial Ombudsman.
Jake says
Hi, I have a couple of CCJS for the Lending Stream (perch capital) (tm legal) and The money shop (bw legal), could I get these set aside with this new ruling of being miss sold. Any help is massively appreciated. They are both very small amounts and Im very silly to even get a CCJ for these in the first place.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Lending Stream is still in business. Make an affordability complaint to them and say you want the CCJs removed as part of the redress.
The Money Shop CCJ – have you paid this?
Chellle says
Hi Sara
As in the Money Shop forum I asked ICL for the complaint redress in writing and I have got the following response!?!
Your debt was sold to PRAC previously by Instant Cash Loans, we are unable to view up to date balances held within their systems. As PRAC are the legal owners of your debt, this is something you can discuss with PRAC and they are fully aware of our decision. Please direct any future questions or queries in relation to the sums you owe to PRAC. ICL will be unable to assist you in that respect.
For 1 I did not ask for the balance I asked the following
Today I have received correspondence with regards to the redress.
Please can you send me correspondence in writing that you have assessed the loan you sold to PARC as being unaffordable.
So I asked again and got a one line email to say it was sent on the 11 June the date I got the redress due in 7 days email!
Jo M says
Hey Sarah,
PRAC / BW Legal has come back with a huge response on why they can’t accept equitable set-off but have reduced my balance again now to £250, I would imagine they are now contacting all ICL customers, the email is sent this time by an individual not the spurious BW email. Still no CCA agreement and they say the FOS won’t look at it, case is logged with FOS however, I think I should await the outcome?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Reducing your balance is good – 250 is a lot better than 830!
What are the numbers in your case… how much did ICL assess your redress at? The loan(s) with BW – how much did you borrow? How much did you pay to ICL (if anything)? How large was the debt whan it was sold to BW? How much have you paid BW (if anything)?
Have they said they cannot produce the CCA agreement or are they just ignoring your request?
Jo M says
Sara, ICL paid me £59.73 on £1385.87 this morning. The loan handed over to BW/PRAC was originally £777.98 as of December 2016, they then increased this to £944.98 with their costs, I did pay some of this monthly, reducing this down to £805.58, but stopped when I put in the ICL affordability claim. PRAC/BW have now reduced this to £250
John says
From BWLEGAL AND PRAC…
As in the Money Shop forum I asked ICL for the complaint redress in writing and I have got the following response!?!
Good Morning
Thank you for your recent email, the contents of which have been noted on file.
Please note that your complaint has been received by the relevant department and you will receive a full correspondence regarding this in due course.
However, we confirm that the Scheme of Arrangement is a separate matter to the outstanding balance in question, your redress will be awareded directly to you in cash. As the balance is no longer owned by Instant Cash Loans an off set cannot be applied.
Please be aware that for any further updates we must await the conclusion of the Scheme of Arrangement.
Should you have any queries please contact our office on 0113 487 0434, or alternatively sign in or register on our Online Customer Portal at http://www.bwlegal.co.uk.
Kind Regards,
bwlegal
Jo M says
I got mine this morning as well with a strongly worded letter saying no equitable set-off, FOS won’t be interested, pay up or else! but they did reduce my balance for the 3rd time.
John says
Dear John…… FROM Financial Ombudsman Service respond ???!?!?
Your complaint about Instant Cash Loans Limited trading as The Money Shop
Thank you for contacting us about your complaint.
Unfortunately, due to the scheme of arrangement we are unable to investigate this complaint.
I know this is something you wouldn’t have wanted to hear but we are unable to do anything further.
Kind regards
Tawhid Jalal | 0800 023 4 567
Financial Ombudsman Service | Exchange Tower, London, E14 9SR
Sara (Debt Camel) says
As the article above says, the complaint to send to FOS is NOT about ICL, that will always be rejected, it is about PRAC Finacial Ltd
Jo M says
Sarah PRAC/BW are advising customers this about the FOS FYI ‘we can confirm that as this is in relation to a ‘post legal’ matter the FOS do not have jurisdiction to mitigate these circumstances. ‘
Sara (Debt Camel) says
let’s see what FOS say about that.
Jo M says
Exactly, my complaint has been in for some time.
Dean says
Hi Sara,
Written to sunny administrators as per your advice to look into complaints stipulating my wife didn’t want any payment, this is their reply,
“As you are aware, the business entered in to administration in June 2020 and the Unsecured Creditor Claim process was put in place. This process was available to all our customers, however it is important to note this was not the same as an affordability complaint as we no longer have the facilities in place to investigate these. Therefore, even if you had raised an Unsecured Creditor Claim successfully and received redress, this would not be an omission that any loans were unaffordable and would have no impact on any loans that had been previously legally assigned to a third party such as SLL Capital Ltd.
In light of the above, it is important to note you did not raise an affordability complaint prior to the business entering in to administration, or raise an Unsecured Creditor Claim prior to the window closing on 31 January 2021. We can no longer accept or investigate affordability complaints given the administration, and cannot assist you further on the matter below. SLL Capital Ltd are now the owners of your debt and we have no authority on the management of your account moving forward. You will need to speak to them directly regarding any queries you may have. The administration of the business is coming to an end with all operational activity ceasing on 30 June 2021”
Dean says
What is your recommendation on how to proceed forward please Sara?
Thank you
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If she cant get the administrators to say the SLL loan was mis-sold, it is going to be hard to get SLL to agree to do any set off. I am sorry, it is a pity she did not make a claim while the Sunny portal was open.
Katie says
Hi all
Might be something, might be nothing, but I have been hounding BW Legal/PRAC since getting my letter from money shop. I have just logged into my BW legal account and they have written off £221 as of yesterday. I haven’t had any response from them directly yet, so took a screenshot of the online account. Will see what they say if they eventually get back to me.
Yasmin Loveridge says
I’ve just had an email from bw legal saying prac are uphelding my claim and I’ll have a redress email shortly.
If you haven’t already email bw legal.
Dave says
I asked if they would set aside a previously registered CCJ if I accepted their offer to reduce the balance.
“We confirm that PRAC Financial are not in a position to set aside County Court Judgement’s for unpaid balances. However, once the previously mentioned settlement figure is paid PRAC will update the court that the matter is settled, to which you can then apply for a certificate of satisfaction.
Should you wish to completely remove the Judgement you can contest this via your local court or online, as your claim from the Scheme of Arrangement has been upheld since the County Court Judgement was entered PRAC Financial will agree not to challenge this.”
I could really do with getting the CCJ removed but can’t afford the £255 to do so. Are they not admitting that the debt should be written off anyway in a roundabout way?
Any thoughts or guidance much appreciated.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
How large is the remaining CCJ debt? How much are PRAC asking you to pay? And what was the ICL total redress offered?
If you accept their offer, there are four possible options.
1) You can send them a formal complaint that they will not set aside the CCJ and take this to FOS if they refuse. As the FOS fee for them would be larger than the cost for them to set the CCJ aside I suppose they may give in if you push like this but they may regard it as a point of principle and refuse.
2) you can apply for the set aside and pay £255. If you are on a low income you may be able to get the fee reduced, possibly to zero, see https://www.gov.uk/get-help-with-court-fees. National Debtline on 0808 808 4000 can explain what to put on the N244 form.
3) you can apply for a set aside with a Consent Order, this would only cost £100. If you are interested in this option, ask PRAC if they will agree to a Consent Order – if they say yes, talk to National Debtline about how to draft one. (Legal Beagles forum https://legalbeagles.info/forums/forum/legal-forums/court-claims-and-issues may also be able to help with this.)
4) you can just live with the CCJ on your credit record. It drops off after 6 years – if that isn’t too long away, this may be the simplest option!
(The option PRAC seem to be proposing, that you pay the reduced amount and get the CCJ marked as satisfied is not actually a valid option unless PRAC are prepared to tell the court that you have paid the CCJ in full which you won’t have – there is no way to get a CCJ marked as satisfied if it has only been partly paid. So you cannot rely on this happening. )
EDIT set aside application costs rose to £275 in October 2021
A Ham says
Hello
I had a loan (£550) with Sunny which was sold on to SLL Capital. My irresponsible claim towards Sunny was upheld and I was paid a small % as refund (£19). I have an outstanding balance with SLL of approximately £158 remaining. SLL are refusing to write off the remaining balance despite me explaining the loan had been upheld as irresponsibly lent. Is this correct? I am trying to get myself straight after a horrendous few years financially (currently on a DMP) and clearing this balance would be one step closer.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Read the article above – that says in this situation you can make a complaint to SLL.
A Ham says
I did read the article, but as my redress was such a small amount compared to whats still outstanding it still leaves £140 ish to be repaid, which doesn’t make sense as the loan was deemed irresponsibly lent.
I have complained (albeit informally) to SLL and they stand by the amount is still to be paid?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The argument in your case goes –
“Sunny assessed my last loan which was sold to SLL as being unaffordable. In total I should have received a refund of c£405. So I should have had an equtable set off of this against my open balance with you. I would therefore like you to write off my current balance and remove the default on the credit record as well. I will send this complaint to the Ombudsman if you do not agree to it.”
I suggest you send that as a formal complaint to SLL.
I am not saying this is going to be easy to win, but why not have a go?
(I guessed at the £405 because it makes the £13 you got about right).
A Ham says
Thank you 😊 xx
Carl Holland says
Hi, I am trying to get my head around this, i have a debt with Sunny that was a miss sold loan and the debt was sold to SLL Capital, I am in a payment arrangement with SLL so i assume i can’t make an affordability complaint, however i would really like default to be removed from my credit file, how do i do this ?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Did you make a claim to the administrators and was this loan decided to be unaffordable?
Carl D Holland says
No unfortunately I didn’t realise until they winded down and sold my debt on
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Then there isn’t anything you can do. The article above looks at options if you had a claim with the administrators upheld, but you haven’t.
Katie says
I am really confused I have a elevate (sunny ) debt which I never payed from 2018 it was sold to ACI debt collector (I have a default names as perch on my credit file from this I’m assuming this is ACI) ACI constantly try contact me for a payment, is they anything I can do now sunny have gone in to administration or am I too late
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You didn’t make a claim to the Sunny administration?
Katie says
No I didnt even know all this was happening at the time
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Then I am not sure there is anything you can do. The article above refers to a situation where you were assessed as being due a redund in administration or a Scheme – but you did not make a claim so this is not relevant to you.
I am afraid you will have to make an arrangement with ACI to repay this debt. Do you have other problem debts or arrears on bills at the moment?