Contents
Background to the Sunny administration
Sunny went into administration on 29 June 2020. It was one of the largest UK payday lenders. It joined a long list of lenders who have collapsed in the last nine months: QuickQuid, Moneybox 247, Swift Sterling, Piggybank, Nextcredit, Peachy, Uncle Buck.
Sunny’s payday lending model was unusual, often lending very small amounts but very frequently, allowing customers to have several loans open at a time.
Sunny’s US parent had previously been hopeful
Elevate Credit International Limited is the UK subsidiary of the US subprime lender Elevate Credit, Inc.
In May 2020, Elevate Credit, Inc, said its net income from the UK had decreased by $6 million from the previous year, resulting in a net loss for the quarter. It attributed this loss to:
a shrinking loan portfolio, along with a steady stream of affordability complaint expense.
Sunny had made just 10,000 new customer loans in Q1 2020, down from 30,000 in Q1 2019. This was attributed to:
the ever stringent customer affordability regulations in the UK.
But at that time the US parent said:
we remain hopeful that we can work with the UK regulators during the second quarter of 2020 to come to an understanding on how we can begin growing the UK business again, as our UK unit economics are very good.
Sunny losing 76% of cases at the Financial Ombudsman
In the payday loan trap, repaying a loan leaves the borrower so short they have to take out another one. And another one. And another one.
The FCA says that a lender has to make reasonable checks that a loan it gives is “affordable” – that the borrower can repay the loan without having to borrow more money or fall behind with other bills and debts.
Since 2015 an increasing number of borrowers have complained that Sunny and other payday lenders have given them unaffordable loans.
The Financial Ombudsman (FOS) has set out what it looks for in a case about unaffordable lending. If the first loan was small a lender doesn’t have to do a lot of checks on affordability. But when a borrower keeps applying for more loans, that is a sign that the loans aren’t affordable, even if they are repaid on time.
In the last half of 2019, FOS received nearly 3,000 complaints about Sunny. During that six months, FOS agreed with the customer in 76% of Sunny cases. This is more than twice as high as the average uphold rate across all FOS cases, which was just 35% for that period.
Sunny wasn’t learning from FOS decisions
The FCA’s DISP rules say that a lender should learn from FOS decisions and adopt that approach in how it responds to complaints. But there is no sign of Sunny doing this.
Here are some examples of poor offers or rejections from Sunny on cases that sound very strong:
- 49 loans with them over 3 years continuously, they only offered me a refund on 37-49 (£2,100).
- I had 30 loans from them between 2017-2019. As a goodwill gesture they’ve offered to write off my remaining balance of around £70.
- The complaint has been rejected. I thought I had a strong case, I carried out 70 loans with no breaks in borrowing. Paying back a total of over £30,000.
And at FOS, Sunny seems to be rejecting far more adjudicator decisions and forcing the case to go to an ombudsman than is reasonable.
Taken to court
Sunny has the dubious distinction of being the only payday lender taken to court in an “unfair relationship” case by a claims firm.
The case was held in March 2020. They may well have known from the way the hearing went in March that they weren’t going to win and this may have contributed to their decision to go into administration before the judgment was published. When Sunny went into administration in June 2020, that would normally have been the end of the case, but the judge agreed to give a judgment saying:
the discussion of these sample claims may be of assistance to other parties to similar litigation.
Sunny lost the case, badly. See Kerrigan v Elevate Credit for my thoughts on the court case.
500,000 customers were mis-sold loans
KPMG, the Administrators, developed a Claims Calculator to work out which Sunny loans were likely to have been “unaffordable”.
On 4 November 2020, they emailed more than 500,000 Sunny customers who this calculator shows were mis-sold loans.
Sunny had about 700,000 customers, so for 500,000 of them to have been mis-sold loans is a shockingly large number.
By contrast, the Wonga administrators only had to pay out to about 400,000 customers. (Although that was because not all Wonga customers put in a claim. The Sunny administrators assessed all customers. So we know that half a million figure is right.)
The Administrators warned there may not be enough money to distribute if too many people make claims. Even less than the Wonga customers received.
People had to put in a claim to get a pay-out. But their credit records were automatically being cleaned, see below.
The administrators originally said people may get less than 1p in the £
The Administrators warned there was very little money to distribute – they call this “a dividend”. If too many people claimed, there may be nothing:
If a very high volume of claims and queries is received, it is likely that the operating costs of responding to queries and processing and adjudicating claims will become so high that no funds will be available for a dividend to be paid to creditors.
If a lower volume of claims and queries is received and a dividend can be made, the dividend is likely to be a very low percentage of your claim… we estimate that any dividend payable could be less than 1p in the £ and that any payment would likely be made in Spring 2021.
Now paying 3.21%
On 28 May 2021, the KPMG administrators announced they will be paying 3.21p in the pound to c 40,000 people who submitted a claim for unaffordable loans.
All 500,000 customers with mis-sold loans should have had their credit records repaired, see below.
40,000 people is a low number as the administrators calculated that more than half a million were mis-sold loans. Many people may not have bothered to claim as the administrators had warned the amount could be less than 1p in the £.
You will get an email saying how much you will receive.
Payment details:
– most people will be paid by electronic transfer, likely to arrive in people’s bank accounts on 3 June 2021
– the payment reference will be “Elevate Sunny”
– a small number of customers who had not provided up-to-date bank details will be paid by cheque.
If your last loan was sold to SLL
If your last Sunny loan was sold to SLL, you will not be getting any “set off” in the administration.
But you can complain to SLL and ask for set off, see No set off in a Scheme/Administration when debt had been sold? for details.
Your credit record should have been cleaned
The only good news here is that the Administrators decided to automatically clean up your credit record if they decided you had unaffordable loans:
- for the first five of the loans that have been decided to be unaffordable they will remove any defaults or missed payment markers;
- all unaffordable loans after the first five will be deleted from your credit record.
This is trying to follow what the Financial Ombudsman typically did in Sunny cases where there were a lot of loans.
The credit record updates and deletions should have been done automatically by the administrators by the end of November 2020.
If there is any chance you may want to make an affordability claim in future about anything – credit card, overdrafts etc not just high cost loans – then I suggest you immediately take a copy of your credit records while they still show the Sunny loans.
But what if your credit record still isn’t right?
In January 2021 people were still saying their credit records weren’t correct. Some people had loans deleted then added back again.
Experian seems to be sorting things out but not Equifax or TransUnion. But you need to check all three CRAs to be sure what has happened to your data.
If you think Sunny hasn’t corrected yours properly then it’s no use asking the administrators. They say:
We have transferred the control of maintaining any remaining records to the credit rating agencies, as we will not be maintaining these records going forward. Any further queries regarding entries on customers’ credit files in relation to ECIL loans should be raised with the relevant agency directly.
So many people have been asking how to do this that I have written a separate article on it: How to correct your credit record if the lender has gone under.
Still not paid by end July?
If you still haven’t been paid, you should email CustomerServicesEAS@Insolvency.gov.uk. Attach the email from the Elevate administrators saying what you should be paid. Attach your bank statements for June and July (wait until the end of July so you can attach a statement for the whole month) which show you did not receive a payment,
“Ripped off by Sunny, now let down by the regulators”
Many people will feel horrified when they see all the loans that have been assessed as unaffordable and the large amount of interest they paid on those loans.
It isn’t the Administrators fault the refunds will be so low, they are just dividing up what money there is.
It is the Financial Conduct Authority’s (FCA) fault:
- despite the rules about checking affordability, Sunny was allowed to carry on lending;
- the FCA didn’t insist Sunny had enough capital to pay out compensation claims; and
- the FCA hasn’t provided any back-up scheme to pay the compensation. If a PPI firm went bust, you would still have received a PPI refund in full from the FSCS scheme – but that doesn’t apply to payday loans.
RH says
Haven’t received an email. I wonder if we’ll be told if our claims weren’t successful. No update since December.
SG says
I haven’t received one either, despite submitting my claim in December. I’ve checked my junk mail as well as my normal inbox. Fingers crossed it comes through soon!
Gloria says
They told me they were sending emails out in batches
Sg says
Ah ok, thats makes sense. Hopefully it’ll arrive soon
Aidan Fall says
I got an email from sunny today saying they were sending emails out this week, this was after I e-mailed them asking what’s going on. “ If your claim has been admitted, then we will be in touch via email once we are in a position to pay the dividend; we are expecting to send these emails throughout the week.”
Ben says
I’ve received £33.68 today under “Elevate Sunny”
Tracy says
I didn’t get am email but received a BACS payment overnight
Jules Nixon says
I have received emails and coming into bank tomorrow.
Thinking about these redresses I have lost tens of thousands through them all.
Can someone start a petition to government asking them to bail us out considering the amount they spend on useless stuff?
Becky Lands says
No email but I received 3.26 yesterday what a joke
RH says
Update. I called Sunny a couple of hours ago and very helpful chap checked my details. Whilst he said he couldn’t give me any amount he was able to confirm I was due a efund. Apparently emails sent throughout today and tomorrow. He advised me that their deadline is to have refunded everyone by Friday.
TC says
I called them just now had totally different reaction to RH the women couldn’t be less helpful. Got my address wrong and my email even though I said they would be older ones. She said she cannot tell me if I’m getting an email just check my inbox and also cannot tell me if they adjudicated in my favour but did say all claims were finalised last Friday so I skied why can’t you just say yes or no I’m on the system and she said ‘because I cannot do that’
The truth is I think they are overwhelmed overloaded and the staff there are losing their jobs too once this is sorted so the incentive to get this right left when the company went under and I feel for the staff.
Kat williams says
Received £22 this morning .. can’t work out how much it should have been lol
AM says
Received mine today. Please check your Junk folder.
Sarah says
No email received but do have a pending transaction from them for a whopping £36! Ive been so caught up in waiting for Money Shop I completely forgot about this one!
Chez21 says
I have not received an email or payment yet from the Money Shop, but on the other hand I’m getting a refund from Sunny for the massive amount of £8.31 which I can see in my online banking scheduled for tomorrow.
Emma says
I have no email either yet but I do have a pending incoming transaction of 1.97. I only borrowed £900 in total though and my main reason for claiming was to have the default removed from my file that is with Lanterns. Just waiting for email now so I hope they’ve deemed all unaffordable.
RS says
For your information the email you receive only provides you with your claim value & redress figure, it does not provide you with any breakdown. I received my email yesterday but no payment yet.
Lou says
I’ve not had an email yet.
I have just phoned them, and they said that they are still sending out emails over the next couple of days.
So I wait.
Mark says
Hi,
I hadn’t received anything yesterday but just had mine come through at 9:20am this morning so can confirm they are still in the process of being sent out
Daryl says
Email received this morning confirming dividend has been processed and payment should be received within 5 days of email.
Daryl says
UPDATE: Email received this morning. Payment is pending transfer in bank account due to clear tomorrow, so it looks like it’s rather quick once done.
Richard white says
Hi,how can i contact sunny? They have wrong email and address now! Thanks
Daryl says
the email will be available until 30th June 2021
Tom says
I’ve spoken to sunny this morning as I haven’t yet received my email or any payment. The gentleman told me that if you haven’t received an email since you submitted your claim then your claim has been excepted. All emails regarding redress will be sent out in stages and will be received over the next 2/3 days. Hope that helps
GD says
Just under £100, which is better than I expected. Will pay for meal I’m taking daughter for next week. Nice.
Ronald says
So I just called Sunny and spoke to someone. According to her some people will have dividend pending payments on their bank accounts but all dividend payments are to be paid in by tomorrow.
According to her again some emails have been sent out, and will continue to do so over the next few working days and that if I have not received anything by next Friday to email or call them.
Alison says
Hi
So regardless if you have had the email or not payments should be in the bank tomorrow? I did actually receive my email yesterday but I don’t have the facility to see pending payments
Thanks
Ronald says
Well that’s according to what the lady told me. Now I just received my email saying it will be paid within 5days
Ronald says
And just not long after posting my previous comment, I just received an email from ECIL that I’ll be paid a dividend of £26.74 to be paid within 5days. Finally it’s coming to an end, my main thing was getting these unaffordable loans removed from my credit file.
Aidan says
Have you had much luck with Experian removing the loans?
Ronald says
It was a bit of a hassle, and annoying but I kept on at them. Took me to make a complaint and explain to them the ECIL are past the point of dealing with CRA’s eventually they gave in apologised and removed them
RH says
No email received as yet a ‘whopping’ £39.13 pending on my account. Better than a kick in the teeth I guess. I will view it as a little bonus following the rather more substantial payout I received from the Money Shop a week ago.
David says
Result..had one email sent saying £7.337.21p was going to be transfered to my bank account…wow result..only to then be told that was wrong.and £236 pound will be paid instead…arrrrg shall i complain🤔
Shirley Gorry says
I have just received 2 pound!! I thought I was getting 2.3 in the pound which should have given me more than 2 pound
Carl says
Had no email or payment at all 🤷♂️
Jay says
Apparently the money will be paid in at some point tomorrow, if you had the confirmation email at the end of last year I’d imagine you will get your redress, I wouldn’t worry too much about the latest email.
Jane Y says
No email but just received a whooping 70.12 in my bank account. Should have been over 2100! Even so better than nothing which is the reply I got when I originally sent complaint in.
Fred says
I just received randomly £21ish.
Hadn’t heard anything from the scheme since last November.
Robert says
no emails since august but got 2.89 this morning
Jane Y says
Just waiting on Moneyshop and Quick Quid. Nit had emails re these recently. Anyone else in the same boat?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Moneyshop emails and payments are going out in batches, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/money-shop-to-close-two-million-customers-will-be-informed/
QQ isn’t close to paying out, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/quickquid-casheuronet-administration/
Laura says
Just received 1.33 from elevate sunny in my bank was sent a email awhile back staying £300 and something to be told it was a mistake and my redress was actually £39 and been paid £1.33….. and the debt company that has the account won’t write it off so lose lose situation.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Read https://debtcamel.co.uk/no-set-off-scheme-administration-debt-sold/ as you may have a complaint against SLL
Sabrina says
I’ve had no email from them however I checked my bank just now and payment has gone in !
Craig says
Had my payment and hadn’t received any emails since December. Got £63!! Annoyingly sunny had rejected my claims when I attempted to claim in 2017, the full amount of 2k would have been nice but hey ho!
I also had outstanding loans which had been frozen since 2017, which I just ignored when they rejected my claim they were wiped as part of this process which was around £600 so suppose I shouldn’t moan too much!
Hope everybody else gets payments quickly this week
paul says
Never got email, in fact forgot abt this but paid in to a/c today – looks like faster payment
Sam says
Is it too late to claim? They rejected my claim through a third party in 2017 but my credit file is full of Sunny/Elevate. I didn’t know there was a scheme in place. I’m not bothered about the money, that’s long gone but I think it’s now one of the main historic thing on my file that has negative markers.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It’s too late too claim, but read https://debtcamel.co.uk/correct-credit-records-lender-administration/ about cleaning up your credit record.
Lisa says
No email notification but £63.34 in account
So better than nothing!!!
Main thing is my credit score is slowly repairing…..
Dave R says
Have been paid by Sunny this morning. £42.97… a tiny chunk of what they should have refunded me but hey ho. Another company to cross off the list and never think about again. Interestingly, no email from them whatsoever. Imagine something will come through later…
Now, back to waiting on the Money Shop…
Dave R says
Email then came through about 4pm that afternoon. Just depressing to see what you actually should have got.
Ben says
No email but had £34 land in my account today, was expecting about £7 based on the outcome of my Ombudsman complaint. Now I just need the Moneyshop to finally payout. 118 to actually issue the refund promised to me. Mr Lender to accept the FOS findings and for 3 other complaints with the FOS to be resolved!
Gulliver G says
£21.50 into my account today and email following!
Finally…claim value was at £670 though…I wonder if there’s a way to challenge and get what we’re owed back? KPMG who took over administration have enough money to offset that I’m sure :)
If anyone has any info on if we can challenge and try to get back what we’re entitled to, I’d appreciate any help!
Mike_p says
Where are you expecting the to money come from? The administrators wind up the company by gathering all it’s assets and then distibuting those to it’s creditors, the net result is that the company is dissolved with no assets remaining.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
This is the FCA’s fault. They have not provided a backup mechanism to pay customers when a lender goes under. When a PPI firm went bust people owed refunds had them paid IN FULL by the FSCS scheme but that doesn’t apply to loans.
Melanie says
Paid this morning
Carlos says
Paid last night £4.58 😂😎 that will get me a pint!
Kayleigh says
Checked my bank and I received a whopping £4.61 😂😂😂 get me a bottle of wine suppose lol
Carlos says
Yes Kayleigh enjoy 😎😎😎
Mark says
As nice as it is to have some money back, and our credit files cleared, my last loan was sold to SLL who will continue to chase me for the full amount.
Its just wrong.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Read https://debtcamel.co.uk/no-set-off-scheme-administration-debt-sold/ as you may be able to complain to SLL. Worth a try?
Dave says
Totally forgot about this, assuming I did put a claim in as £21 ended up in my account last night paid for the takeaway haha. I put an affordability complaint in a few years ago and got a decent sum back so mustn’t grumble. Still not heard from Moneyshop but did get about 4K from PDUK and Payday Express about 4 years ago. Checked my credit score on Experian and it’s 881 ‘good’ I remember when I was in the 500s so good progress.
Darrell says
Same as all companies who go bust. They soon send you to a debt collector for not paying them and make you pay all back plus interest. However they get away with paying 3.21p in the pound. Bet the owners of these companies still sit in their big homes and have money in the bank. It’s all a joke for people getting refunds. These companies all used high interest on vulnerable people.
Laura says
This is the email I was sent back in March and again today in response to me asking for the balance to be off set with SSL that sunny sold my account too after explain everything SSL will not budge and it’s frustrating.
Sunny Loans have recently sent you an email relating to any accounts that you still held with them, advising that the balance has been written off.
You will note that the sixth paragraph on this communication (copied below) clearly states that you must still pay any outstanding balances that you have with a third party debt purchaser such as SLL Capital.
Your account remains outstanding to SLL Capital and needs repaying, please note SLL reports your payment performance to the Credit Reference Agencies’.
Extract from Sunny email:
Please also note that this email does not impact your obligation to continue to pay any outstanding loan balance owing to a third party debt purchaser. i.e. if you have previously taken out a loan(s) from ECIL and you were subsequently notified (before ECIL entered administration) that the loan(s) had been sold by ECIL to a third party debt purchaser, then any amount owing on such loan(s) remains payable.
In addition to this, you can visit the Sunny FAQs on the Sunny website where under “Customers + Has my loan been sold” you can substantiate
the Sunny email that you need to repay any outstanding loan balance owing to a third party debt purchaser.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you ask SLL if that is their final response to your complaint as you will be sending it to the Financial Ombudsman.
How much do you owe SLL?
Laura says
According to their email £620 I’ve asked for a breakdown as I know the original loan from sunny wasn’t anywhere nearly £200 let alone the amount they are stating.
The hyperlinks in the email is a dead link and at no point did I see the statement that sunny customers were still liable to pay if the accounts were sold.
I will email and say I am contacting financial ombudsman and see what happens thankyou sara.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It is well worth pushing on this and going to FOS if SLL don’t give in. What do you have to lose?
Laura says
Thank you for your recent correspondence. We are sorry to hear that you have been dissatisfied with the service you have received.
Your original lender Sunny Loans sold your unpaid loan accounts and this has been purchased and assigned to SLL Capital on 26/05/2016. This means that all rights in to and under the terms of your original lender’s agreement now belongs to SLL Capital Limited.
Please note the loan was sold to SLL Capital before Sunny Loans entered into administration.
To help resolve this matter we have reduced your account balance to the principal amount sold to SLL Capital (£483.06) minus any payments made to SLL Capital (£95.00) meaning your account is free of any interest and charges.
The outstanding balance remaining is now the principal remaining of £388.06. (They have reduced the original £600 plus since mentioning the financial ombudsman)
The Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS) supports our view that it is fair that customers repay the capital amount they’ve borrowed. We believe that our offer to remove all interest, fees, and charges associated with the loan is fair and reasonable
Just received this as my reply today.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Well that is a step forward…
When was this loan taken out? Are you sure it was only £200?
Mark says
SlL capital will have bought the debt for a few pence in the pound as per normal debt book purchase practice.
For them to say they are not charging interests or charges is also common place.
They are simply playing hard ball to make a profit on a loan that shouldn’t have been given in the first place.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
unless the loan is pre 2015, it is actually illegal to carry on adding interest and charges as the loan will have hit the price cap before it is sold.
Mark says
I’m in the same situation as well.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
SLL will be charge £650 for every FOS complaint, win or lose. So if it realises that many people are serious and will take cases to FOS it may start being more reasonable.
Robert says
Do not pay this company any money – take it to the FoS – do not engage in negotiation
.. Sunny shouldn’t have given you the loan hence why they are having to pay customers back.
I cannot believe the FOS would rule that one company has to pay you compensation for giving loans to people they didn’t correctly assess but then allow another company to then take money more than the actual redress recieved from the individual despite what their email says.
Liza says
Sunny was the worst company I had over £4000 in loans with them over the years. I received a payment of £1.36 today. The FOS ruled in my favour and they went into administration on the final day they were due to pay me out.
Robert says
Yes all have them have done the same – go into administration to avoid the payouts and then pop up as a different company name and continue fleecing people. The worst is they are having to pay back money to people for loans they should have given and they are using that money to pay themselves the full amount and giving customers who have paid back their loans £2.31.
Brad Warner says
This is utter rubbish. If we owed that money, we’d have defaults and would be forced to pay it back. I was owed £786 but got £25. I haven’t got a job and really could have done with that money. How they can get away with this crap, I don’t know.
Bill says
I think it’s great Sunny still boasts about the awards Sunny WON (For treating customers fairly)!! at the bottom of an email regarding a settlement being for selling loans unfairly, ultimately resulting in the demise of Sunny.
Tom says
No email but got £33.50 today 😁
John says
386. Paid in today from sunny I was 1 month off getting 11k and they went bust. But this is a help
Fm says
Interesting I too had an fos decision then delayed response by sunny then adminstration really feels like a game we are going bust so do nought awfull and yet FCA etc do nothing shocking .. my awarded 1900 from fos was 48 quid from sunny admin 48quid they are taking the biscuit but as FCA refuse to deal we are over a barrell
Ashley Clark says
Yay got 0.14 paid
Simon says
Hi Sara,
I have not heard from Sunny or Moneyshop about how much I am due since I made the claims on the portals, although other customers have received from Sunny on 3rd and 4th June. Would they contact me to tell me my claim was rejected if it it has been or are they still et to pay out some customers?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So you sent a claim to ICL/Money Shop but have never heard back? The chances are an email went into your junk folder I am afraid.
Sunny – had Sunny told you you were eligible to claim?
I have deleted the rest of your complaint as you also posted it on the provident page where i have replied to it.
Simon says
I heard back from Moneyshop a while ago but didn’t seem to be getting an email about how much I would be paid and when etc, but I emailed them after my comment on here and have since had a reply from them and the pay out. £190 after being due £4400 but better than nothing.
With Sunny, I also emailed them and they said that they have no record that I made a claim on the site and that the scheme is now closed. I do recall going on the site to do the claim and it told me at the time in the claim calculator that it would be around £211. I was emailing them to say I thought that was extremely low compared to the interest I had on the loans and was asking how I can get the details of the loans as not all of them were being shown on my account at the time, but they just kept saying to look on my account. I explained it wasn’t showing and asked if I needed to do a gdpr request, but didn’t get a reply from them until I emailed again after the submission deadline and they then said I could submit a manual claim. I couldn’t do manual claim without having the loan and interest info and the site had stopped access to accounts by then, so left it to go through as the claim on the site, or so I thought. Oh well, doesn’t seem like i’ve lost much anyway with how much other people have been paid. Thank you.
Dean says
Hello Sara,
My wife had her loans with sunny sold to a debt company( SLL capital), she hasn’t made a complaint in time before the portal closed and sunny haven’t contacted her despite her trying to email them.
Is there any way still for her to make a complaint and get this resolved? Thank you for your help
Sara (Debt Camel) says
how many loans did she have with them?
how large is the SLL debt?
Dean says
The debt is £871, she can’t remember how many loans exactly there were but it was a few.
Thank you Sara
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Then she probably was sent an email by the administrators but didnt see it, probably because it want into spam.
I think she needs to persist in trying to get hold of the administrators – she can say she doesn’t expect a refund (she is too late to have claimed one) but if she can get confirmation from them that the loans sold to SLL were assessed to be unaffordable, then she can complain to SLL as this other article explains: https://debtcamel.co.uk/no-set-off-scheme-administration-debt-sold/
Hollie says
Hi All
I had a loan with Sunny which was written off on there website and i also recieved £ 96.00 in redress for the unaffordavle loan of £3000.00 but Perch are still taking the monthly payment which i believe is a mistake on there part,
I contacted them back in October and no one was willing to help and really didn’t listen to what i was saying so when i recieved the redress payment i contacted them (ACI) again.
They are now looking into my comlpaint / confusion to what has happend but would like to know if anyone else has had this problem.
And if you think i am right that they should not be taking payments and should refund what i have paid with interest.
Thank you in advance.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Perch are collecting on behalf of Sunny? How large do Perch say your balance is? Have you stopped paying them?
Hollie says
Hi Sara,
Yes, Perch Capital (ACI) are collecting monthly payments from me on behalf of Sunny. My balance when it was allegedly ‘sold’ to them was £2260. My balance is now currently sitting at around £1100. I have asked them to stop payments, which they agreed to, whilst they look into my complaint and I have sent them a lot of evidence that I have collected since October 2020 & also sent proof of my redress I received.
I really believe I shouldn’t be paying this loan as Sunny explained on their website that a loan that was sold would be updated on a credit file as Sold and a new account with Perch would be opened. My Sunny loan says ‘closed’ on my file and I have nothing on my file to do with Perch. My account on Sunny’s website also says ‘credit/written off’ – nothing to advise that my loan has been sold.
What are your thoughts on this?
Thank you in advance!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So were you told by Sunny that the loan was unaffordable and redress had been calculated?
Hollie says
Hi Sara
Yes when they went into administration I received the email to put in a claim which I did and I received £96 into my bank as redress last week against the £3000 loan.
It’s become very confusing if they pay redress surely they are admitting the loan was unaffordable . My sunny account says write off.
Thank you
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Then I don’t think your loan should have been sold.
I suggest you try to contact the administrators and say they should not have sold a loan that should have been set off against the redress owed to you. Ask them to buy back the loan from Perch and refund the amounts you have paid to Perch.
Hollie says
Hi Sara
Many thanks for your advice , I will contact the administrators and see what happens.
Thanks again
Holly D says
Hi Sara,
Firstly, thank you for all the helpful advice you have given on this site.
I am extremely upset that due to the failings of the FCA, those people who were due redress from PDL companies failed to have the full amount of redress paid to them. In my case, administrators agreed that both in the Wonga and in the Sunny situations I should have received just over £4000, a total of over £8000. I of course, received a fraction of that !! I agree with your point that the FCA are to blame for this situation by lack of regulation in both instances. I also understand that for an individual to have financial conduct issues with an organisation like the FCA is a daunting task. I want to write to the CEO of the FCA and show him/her that lack of regulatory measures on the part of the FCA has denied me, and others, of monies which we would have been entitled to.
Steven says
So these companies broke UK LENDING CODES and give money to people who couldn’t afford it? Could a claims lawyer not look into a class action against the regulator who give these companies their licenses to lend? Was owed £180ish from moneyshop and got £8.78 i think? This has to be illegal. Surely some legal people should look into it. End day if the license wasn’t granted we wouldn’t have heard of Sunny etc?
I’m so glad I did my complaint against them yrs ago and got £700 written off
Jordan says
Are the administrators still paying out or has the redress finished?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I am told by the administrators:
A small number of bank transfers have failed. The Customer Service team has been attempting to contact these customers over the last few days and a second attempt at those payments is being made, expected to reach accounts on Monday 28 June.
Anyone who has still not received a payment they were expecting on Monday, should contact the Customer Service team before 30 June.
David says
Still not received mine although it said I’d be getting £69
Sara (Debt Camel) says
see my reply to Jordan above.
Dave L says
I am actually getting really annoyed with administrators for this . On the 17th I received an email that the payment had bounced , it was to my old account and I provided them new bank details as requested. Since then I have sent five emails chasing this up without one response and it’s getting close to the date where their contact centre will close . They just seem to be plain ignorant
Lauren williams says
I am in the exact same position, I was told it would be fine changing my details and now I havent heard anything I even asked for a number or email address for when the customer service closes and they couldn’t give me an answer
Dave L says
Did they sort it out for you in the end ?
Lauren Williams says
No still nothing they said payments have been resent but I haven’t received anything but don’t know who to contact
Lauren says
Hello,
Sunny have removed the default from my account and have refunded me for my Loan.
However, it was sent to lantern before they went into administration. My claim was upheld, and the default removed. Although, lantern continued this. I sent them the evidence that it’s been removed and I got refund.
I already had a case open with the financial ombudsman and there first response is that lantern can still default me even though sunny upheld my claim and removed the loan from my credit file?
Not sure what else I can do.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Carry on with the FOS case – argue that as if the loan has been decided to be unaffordable, the repayments were too large, so your credit record should not be harmed by making lower payments.
Lauren says
The first person at the ombudsman agrees with lantern that they can still default me. As at the time they brought the debt the conditions had been met.
Even though sunny have refunded and me and removed there entry. I already had paid lantern before the company went into administration.
I’m at my wits end.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
As at the time they brought the debt the conditions had been met.
Go back and say that isn’t relevant, because a debt purchaser has to change a default date if the lender later changes it – that can include adding or deleting a default date. And here the original lender has deleted the default date. Point out the SCOR principles of credit reporting say
“Should your account be sold or referred to another lending organisation or a debt collection
agency, the record(s) provided to a CRA by the creditor/and or purchaser must still be accurate
and up to date.”
Here the lender has updated your original debt to remove the default. The debt purchaser must also reflect this change, Lantern cannot continue to report the default as that is now wrong.
Lauren says
Thank you so much I will get this is in the response.
Lauren says
I have emails going back to march with sunny asking what Steps I have to do, I then phoned in June to change my bank details which they say was fine, I haven’t received any payment and they told me I would receive something at the beginning of July still nothing so I emailed CustomerServices.EAS@Insolvency.gov.uk who said they can see my payment has failed and I have to send a hand written letter with my bank details on it( didn’t say where to send it too aka the address and bare in mind I had to wait 2 weeks for them to reply) they said if I don’t by the end of July then that’s it and they won’t try send any more payments but iv been waiting 10 days for a response iv sent 5 emails and got nothing back, they are clearly waiting it out for the end of July to come so they don’t have to pay me but can they do this if I have emails showing I have done everything asked and have been chasing since June should I take this to the financial ombudsman as they are literally ignoring me and there is no contact number or address
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You can’t go to the Ombudsman when a lender is in administration or a Scheme.
They don’t get any advantage by not paying you. If you don’t get paid now, you will be able to claim the money from the Insolvency Service in the end.
Danni says
Hi Sara,
I’m in the same position and have been sent around the houses. Is there a contact number or email of who we can contact? They claimed my payment was returned (even though it’s the correct details and this has NEVER hapoened in all the year’s I’ve had my account). They also claimed they resent the payment (on the 28th), and I will have to wait 3-5 days. That dragged it out till after the 30th.
I’m shocked that this was allowed to occur, and they left no clear instructions for those of us who faced this issue.
Danni says
Hi Sara,
Have you seen my response? Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
See the new section “Still not paid by end July” that I have added to the article above.
Danni says
Hi Sara,
I emailed them previously as I found their details on a website. They advised “I can confirm that we have a case set up on our system for Elevate Credit International Limited but no dividend payment listing creditors owed monies has been received to date from the liquidator. As it appears that the liquidator paid you and therefore the payment would have been returned to them, to be on the safe side you would be best to discuss with them and find out if they will be sending a dividend payment to us at some stage. They are, Interpath Ltd.”
Everytime I call the number it just rings out and goes to a voicemail.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It will take some time for the money to be passed through to the IS. I suggest you go back to them in 3-6 months. There isn’t a way of speeding this so far as I know as the administrators are not making any further attempts and liquidating the company.
Danni says
Hi Sara,
You can remove my last reply as got a call back, and I have been advised that isn’t the person dealing with the unsuccessful dividend payments (and I wouldn’t want them being bogged down with calls). I will post any helpful updates.
Thanks again
Lauren says
Hello,
I have previously commented before that the Finicial ombudsman ruled that lantern can still default me.
There saying as I already raised a complaint before the information came to light they haven’t had chance to investigate. But then I got all the additionally information, and submitted to lantern but because they haven’t been told directly by sunny they won’t remove the default and the FOS thinks this is fair.
I don’t know what else to do. Is there email I can get hold of administration to say to remove it
Sara (Debt Camel) says
There saying as I already raised a complaint before the information came to light they haven’t had chance to investigate.
who said this – FOS or Lantern?
if it is a FOS decision, is this from an adjudicator or an Ombudsman?
The Sunny administrators are shutting up shop, I very much doubt they will respond to you or to anyone about this.
Lauren says
This is what FOS and the adjudicator. They have seen all the emails that I have sent lantern from sunny about my claim. But they said not good enough, but it took lantern over 6 months to respond to my complaint in the first place. The adjudicator has also seen my claim submit, that was upheld, removed from my credit file but said they can default as they heard nothing from sunny. I’m losing the plot. As not sure how much more evidence I can provide.
Lauren says
Auto correction, meant say that was the decision from the adjudicator.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok then you need to ask for your case to be looked at by an Ombudsman.
Lantern is not treating you fairly by refusing to remove the default despite you showing them the email evidence that the administrators say the loan was unaffordable. The administrators will no longer respond to queries about this and the company will soon be in liquidation – but it is wrong that you should have a default for an unaffordable loan.
Taiye says
Hello,
I havent recieved my payment from sunny yet?
Wanted to know the best way to get in contact as I missed the time in June.
Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
See article above – you will have to claim later from the Insolvency Service.
daniel jepson says
Hello I recieved my payment a mere £5.95 but my outstanding debt was sold onto lantern and I am still paying the outstanding balance at £5pm is this right? I was under the assumption this would clear this debt yet I am still paying it, regards Daniel
Sara (Debt Camel) says
read https://debtcamel.co.uk/no-set-off-scheme-administration-debt-sold/ and think about making a complaint to lantern as that says.
Debtful Wanderer says
I have recently been working through my credit report, trying to get myself in a better position. I have two default accounts showing from “Lantern” I have contacted them and they have explained that the money I owe is for two Sunny Accounts I had back in 2016. It looks like two loans (350 and 550). For the life of me I can’t understand why they would think I was in a position to afford the first, let alone the second in such a short space of time.
My question is – what do I do now? In December 2022 it will be 6 years since I took the loans, and I don’t think I’ve paid to either of them. So will they just fall off? Or should I speak to Lantern and try and clear them? I’m so confused and upset – I don’t really know what to do. Please help!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It is now too late to make a complaint to the Sunny administrators.
The debts will fall off at the 6 year point, but Lantern is likely to go to court for a CCJ before that point… They may take a settlement offer if you could afford one.
Debtful Wanderer says
They haven’t been in touch in years. I really wish I hadn’t messaged them now -I think they may have forgotten about me. I should have kept quiet as it’s getting close to the 6 year period.
Can I make a complaint to them about the loans being unaffordable? Thanks for your help x
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No, they didn’t make that decision and won’t have any records of the checks that were (or weren’t) made.
Jack says
I’ve not had my credit markers from Sunny (ELEVATE) removed as of yet. I’ve contacted the CRA (Experian and Equifax) who have said they will now contact Sunny/administrators, as they would normally. However, after seeing the FAQ released by the Administrators, they seemed to be passing the buck on to the CRA themselves.
So what happens in this instance? For context, most of the loans were paid off in full and settled in the past.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Experian and Equifax won’t get a reply from the administartors. At that point they should suppress the disputed records so no-one else can see them.
Jack says
Thanks for the reply, Sarah.
They’ve asked me to wait 28 days for a response from the administrators. They will get no response, so I imagine the response from the CRA will be – at least initially – they won’t remove anything by default as they don’t have permission.
My reply to them should be to suppress it then? Is that a separate process with them? Will that appear on my credit file still?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If they don’t get a reply, tell them to suppress the data.
cyrilv says
So… just received this very interesting email from Lantern (acting for Sunny)….
“We are writing to you in connection with a loan account you hold with us.
[…]
What does this mean for me?
The total write-down applied to your Sunny account is £83.06
Your current outstanding balance after applying the redress is £169.51
As your redress entitlement is less than the value of your outstanding Sunny loan balance owed to Lantern, we have written down the balance of your outstanding loan by the amount of your redress claim. This means you still have an outstanding loan balance due to us, however it is now reduced by the amount of redress you are due. We have provided a breakdown above.
What do you need to do now?
You don’t need to take any further action in order to accept this offer of redress however we would encourage you to contact us with respect to your remaining outstanding balance.”
Now I haven’t been paying Lantern anything, but I have been paying BPO £7 a week for some considerable time regarding this loan – and it is the same one; as BPO state they’re acting for Lantern and the reference numbers and amount currently owed match. So – what should I do now? Do I keep paying the £7 to BPO, stop paying them, or maybe try for an F&F? The original Sunny loan dates from 2014 and has fallen off my credit records.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So you made a claim to Sunny? And they paid you £83 in redress?
cyrilv says
No, I took Sunny to the Ombudsman and eventually lost.
I’ve been paying back £557 to BPO, who are acting for Lantern, since about Nov ’17, at a rate of £7 a month. Sunny’s administrators appear to have awarded this £83.06 redress today. The figures stated above are exactly in keeping with what I owe to BPO.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Do you have any communications from the administrators about this?
cyrilv says
Haven’t heard anything from the administrators in months, much less anything about redress.
As I say, this email came from Lantern. This is the firm to whom the original Sunny debt from 2014 was assigned, they were known as Motormile Finance at the time. They eventually sold the debt to BPO, to whom I’ve been paying it off at £7/month since Nov ’17.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You made a claim to the administrators? Was it upheld?
cyrilv says
No idea if I did make a claim to them – may well have done at the time and completely forgotten about it as the time came for some people to get their cheques – but it appears that the administrators must have awarded this £83, and it must have been them as I have had no communications at all with Lantern.
But it is BPO, not Lantern, who are picking up my payments each month – and as I asked originally, do I keep paying them monthly, stop paying them totally or ask for an F&F?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The Sunny administrators will have paid you, not Lantern. That is why I am asking these questions…
If you would have got £83 from the administrators, then the total refund may have been about £2,500.
In which case you can argue to Lantern that your whole balance should be written off, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/no-set-off-scheme-administration-debt-sold/. Or if you want you can offer a lower settlement amount.
It doesn’t matter that you are paying BPO if they are collecting for Lantern – that is the same as paying Lantern.
cyrilv says
Aha! now that’s what I wanted to hear! Thank you.
So, before I act, would the best thing to do here be contact Lantern and copy in BPO, or vice versa?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I would reply to Lantern and copy in BPO.
But it still isn’t clear to me what happened or why Lantern sent you that odd email.
cyrilv says
Well, BPO/Lantern have offered me a 50% F&F, which I’ve taken as I’m now in a position to do so. So that’s another one off my back. Now with a bit of judicious use of 0% balance transfer cards that’ll be me essentially free of debt in about 2 years from about £11,000 four years ago. And so much of this has been thanks to you!
One thing with this F&F – the original Sunny loan was marked as defaulted in about June 2014 and has since fallen off my credit records. Is there any chance that BPO or Lantern will re-flag this as “partially satisfied” and make it visible again? I do hope not… and after all none of these £7/month payments were showing on my records even when the Sunny loan was listed there.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
no, it can’t reappear.
Richard says
I’ve got some Sunny loans still on my credit report that were sold to SLL Capital a few years back. I settled with them about a year ago and they have now agreed to remove the entries on my credit report. I still have a few entries left on my report from Sunny though that are marked as closed. If i query this with the CRA’s, are the administrators still replying to them or do I need to wait a while still?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The Sunny administrators aren’t replying to CRAs any more.
Richard says
Thanks Sara :)
CMB says
I am very clueless on what to do about this situation – I got a payday loan a few years ago something that should never been given to me either way it was from Sunny Loans – when I check my credit score now I have 3 defaults from them now called Elevate. I have now paid the debts off as I am now in a better financial situation. But when I am trying to find contact details online about getting these defaults removed from my score it seems to be impossible to fine any. If possible would you be able to push me in the right direction on how I can go about this
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The administrators are no longer replying to queries about credit records. You can therefore contact the credit reference agencies directly and explain you cannot get a reply from them so you would like the CRAs to suppress the credit records, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/correct-credit-records-lender-administration/
Canaan says
Hi Sara,
Season’s greetings and thank you so much for your wonderful blog.
I had some payday loans with Sunny (Elevate Credit International) but I paid them all off and they subsequently did give me a redress amount. However, I had not been diligent in checking my credit report but did so yesterday and noticed that in June 2020, Sunny (Elevate Credit International) registered a default on my report. As I had settled all the loans and they no longer exist, is it fair that the the default should be on my credit report? Who do i get in touch with to get it removed as it is a big negative on my report and in the future I may need to borrow money for unexpected situations such as family bereavement?
I look forward to hearing you.
Best regards,
Canaan
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No that doesn’t sound right. Luckily you can get this sorted – read https://debtcamel.co.uk/correct-credit-records-lender-administration/ and ask any further questions on that page.
Lloyd says
Am I still able to claim? I can’t find an email address to send a complaint too..
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No, sorry. All the money was paid out last summer.
Do you still owe money to a debt collector for a Sunny loan?
Emma says
Hi sorry to jump on this but I owe money to Lantern for a sunny loan. I did claim back when you could and I did get some redress but it was like under £1 I think. Anyways I rang lanterns in September last year and offered a 50% settlement on around 900 and they said no. They went through income and expenditure with me told me they’d put my account and hold for 30 days and send me a letter. To this day I’ve never heard a thing from them. Is there anything I can do?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
does this record have a default date on it on your credit record?
I don’t know if you saw this https://debtcamel.co.uk/no-set-off-scheme-administration-debt-sold/.
You could just wait until you are contacted about this?
Emma says
Hi yeah so it says start date 10/11/2017 and default date is 28/05/2018. Last updated on the 08/07/2020.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok so it will drop off your credit record 6 years after the default date eg 28/05/2024
Katiexxx says
Is there any way to still submit an irresponsible lending complaint against sunny? For the purpose of getting the default removed from my credit file rather than expecting any redress
Sara (Debt Camel) says
no, BUT you can ask the credit reference agencies to “suppress” the loans from your record so they are not visible to other lenders. See https://debtcamel.co.uk/correct-credit-records-lender-administration/
Emma L says
I received a payment from Elevate/Sunny during the administration overseen by KPMG. I can’t locate the e mail confirming the calculations and the portal is now closed, although have the evidence of the money being paid and from the account it came from. I am being perused by Moriarty Law over an outstanding debt bought by SLL for a Sunny Loan and they’ve asked for proof that my claim of irresponsible lending was upheld – any ideas what I can do?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
read https://debtcamel.co.uk/no-set-off-scheme-administration-debt-sold/
This may be more difficult as you no longer have the email from the administrators. But you can send ovver a copy of your bank statements showing the payment from the administrators.
Janine says
Morning, sorry to jump on an old thread but I have a couple of questions regarding an old Sunny loan. The loan is with Lantern however, it is nowhere to be found on my credit report and I think this is because 6 years has passed and it has fallen off! Lantern are still in contact with me, not threateningly but asking if I would like to set up a payment plan etc and they have also provided the CCA and confirmed that the default date was 23/9/14. Am I too assume that they cannot take legal action with this? If so, how do I get them to stop contacting me?! Thank you
Sara (Debt Camel) says
when did you last make a payment to this debt?
have you made any complaints to Sunny or the administrators?
Janine says
I last paid anything towards it in 2021 as part of a DMP. No, I haven’t made any complaints to them as only now I am aware of the affordability complaint process. Thank you. I also have an account with lantern that was for Onstride and I know I cannot make a claim against them anymore either so am planning on taking a different approach with that and hopefully getting them to wipe it due to serious financial difficulties and serious mental health issues
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Just because the old Sunny loan is no longer on your credit record, soes NOT mean that it is unenforceable in court. As you have made a payment within the last 6 years, the debt canniot be statute barred.
You may have to ask Lantern to wipe this old debt too.
Janine says
Ok thank you for this advice Sara, much appreciated
Emma says
Hello! I’ve been looking for this thread for a while and just found it again thankfully.
I had some loans with Sunny. Lanterns bought the debt before Sunny went into administration. Sunny decided the loans unaffordable got a couple of quid.
It defaulted May 2018 so lanterns are now back on the case. I have only spoke to them once a few years ago when I said sunny said it was unaffordable why are you still chasing me etc. they put my account on hold for 30 days and then I didn’t hear anything until now.
What is my best course of action here? I’ve ignored Lanterns for the last 2 weeks. They’ve rang every day. 1 text message and 2 emails. No post but I have moved address. Debt is £901 I don’t really have the means to pay it right now. I’m annoyed that it’s so close to being statue barred but I guess that’s what they do.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So you have the decision from the Sunny administrators that this loan was unaffordable?
Emma says
I just have an email saying the following. I think I only actually had the 1 loan with them but added to it 3 times making it 4 in total and they stopped the interest pretty quick as I took it out like an idiot even though I couldn’t afford it.
“ Your dividend is calculated by multiplying the value of the dividend being made to all creditors, being 3.21 pence in the pound (rounded), by the value of your claim, being £61.2.
In your case, this results in a dividend of £1.97.
We have made payment of your dividend amount of £1.97 by direct transfer to the bank account details you submitted in your claim form (as subsequently updated by you, if applicable). The payment reference that you will see on your bank statement is “Elevate Sunny”.
I emailed them separately asking what loans they had deemed unaffordable and this is the response I got.
“ Furthermore, if your loan(s) were sold to a 3rd party you will need to contact them regarding any balance still to be paid. The business entered into administration on 29 June 2020 and at this point we ceased to have any power to recall loans that had been sold to a 3rd party, this is the case even if you have received a dividend payment from an unsecured creditor claim. The 3rd party are the owners of your loans and we have no authority on the management of your account, including amounts being written off or records being removed from your credit file. If you remain unhappy, you will need to speak with the third party directly and/or contact the Credit Reference Agencies (Experian, TransUnion and Equifax) regarding any records you wish to dispute. Please be aware that the administration of the business is coming to an end with all operational activity ceasing on 30 June 2021 and after this point no queries will be responded to. Please be aware that the administration of the business is coming to an end with all operational activity ceasing on 30 June 2021 and after this point no queries will be responded to”
Thanks Emma
Sara (Debt Camel) says
how difficult is your current financial position? how large are your other debts apart from this one? are you paying them in full? with payments arrangements? any not at all?
Emma says
It’s not too bad to be completely honest. I have a loan and 2 credit cards but all up to date with payments. However with the payments to them things are rather tight. This is the only negative thing on my credit report at the minute.
Just re read the comment. I am not paying in full but paying above the minimum payment.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If you made a claim to the administrators then this isn’t close to being statute barred.
As this was the last loan you had from Sunny it is the most likely to have been decided to be unaffordable.
This post looks at what sounds like a similar situation, where loans were sold to a debt collector called PRAC and were not settled within the Money Shop scheme (a scheme is similar to an administration for this sort purpose): https://debtcamel.co.uk/no-set-off-scheme-administration-debt-sold/
You could follow the suggested route in that article and complain to Lantern
Mark says
Hi, I had a couple of loans with sunny which were then sold to lantern. Since then sunny has disappeared and I was awarded redress as the loans were deemed unaffordable and missold. I know the administrators wiped clean defaults and missed payments but mine haven’t as lantern have the rights now. I have contacted them and they say they cannot change records. I have also contacted the credit reference agencies and they investigated and have come back saying lantern say the records are correct. What can I do??? Many thanks.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
so the Sunny administrators said the loans sold to Lantern were unaffordable?