In September 2022, the debt collector Lowell bought Hoist’s UK business, with over 2 million defaulted accounts.
Most of these debts were loans, credit cards or overdrafts from lenders such as Barclays, Egg, HSBC, Newday and Santander.
Lowell is moving over the Hoist accounts to its system. With so many accounts to be transferred, this is being done in batches.
When yours is switched over, you should be sent a letter from Lowell. The first letters I heard about were in February 2023, and there have been a lot more in March and April.
Contents
What should happen
If this all goes smoothly:
- your account should be moved over to the Lowell system
- if you have a direct debit, that should be changed by Lowell so you do not have to do anything
- if you are making bank transfers yourself or paying by standing order you will need to change to paying a Lowell account
- your credit record should be changed to show that Lowell now own the debt, but the default date should be the same as it was before
- you will get a letter from Lowell with the details including your Lowell reference number.
Not paying? Lowell will want you to start
If you ignore any debt collector, you are likely to be taken to court for a CCJ at some point. Problem debts rarely just disappear.
Your options include:
- making a payment arrangement with Lowell. See How does a payment arrangement work & is one right for you? for details. Do not offer more than you can afford every month;
- offering a token payment or explaining to Lowell that you have priority debts and cannot afford to make any payment at the moment;
- making a settlement offer if you have some spare money. These do NOT mean the default will stay on your credit record for longer, it will still drop off after 6 years. See A Guide to Settlement Offers for details.
- if you have other problem debts it is better to look at your full situation, not try to sort debts out one at a time. Phone National Debtline on 0808 808 4000.
You could also think about:
- asking Lowell to produce the Consumer Credit Act agreement for the debt, see How and when to ask for the CCA;
- whether you could make an affordability complaint to the original lender. If you win that it could reduce or clear the amount owed and improve your credit record.
Can’t afford your current payment arrangement?
If you have been paying Hoist £20 a month, say, this may have been affordable when you set it up a couple of years ago. But now the rising cost of living may mean that you really can’t afford that much.
See this transfer to Lowell as a good point to review the arrangement. You may need to reduce it to £5 a month, or even nothing if your mortgage or rent or energy bills are now much higher.
So talk to Lowell about this. All debt collectors have been told by the regulator that they have to be sympathetic to people in difficulty.
But also think about taking debt advice on your full situation. Lowell may be happy to accept nothing for a while – but it doesn’t actually resolve the debt problem.
Some questions and problems
“Is this legal?”
Yes, it is. You have no right to be consulted over this or to refuse to allow your debt to be sold. The money you previously owed to Hoist you now owe to Lowell.
This sort of sale is pretty common in the debt management world. Hoist itself bought Robinson Way and Compello some years ago.
“I’m still paying Hoist – should I stop?”
You don’t need to do anything unless Lowell tell you to.
The money you are paying to Hoist is not going to get lost, it will still be credited to your debt.
“Lowell has written to me about a debt that I never owed”
This may be some form of “mistrace” where you have been wrongly identified as the person that owes the debt.
You could send Lowell a standard Prove It! letter, but I suggest you add in any helpful other details. For example, “Hoist never contacted me about this alleged debt”, “I have never had any accounts with Santander” or “You say this is a Barclaycard account, but I have had a Barclaycard for more than 10 years and have never had any payment difficulty with it.”
Don’t ignore this, it is better to get it sorted out now rather than in court.
“I can’t make a payment on the Hoist page”
If you haven’t yet had the transfer letter from Lowell, you won’t know your Lowell reference number, so you can’t just pay Lowell.
This may feel worrying, especially if you are making payments after a CCJ. But in practice, Lowell is not going to get aggressive if you miss a payment in this situation.
If you are very concerned, you could email to support@lowellgroup.co.uk explaining your situation.
“I’ve only been contacted about one Hoist account”
This is probably because the accounts are being handled in different batches. Don’t assume one you haven’t heard about isn’t being transferred, or that it has somehow got lost so you can stop paying it.
“Hoist couldn’t produce the CCA in 2019”
If you have had a letter from Hoist saying the debt has been sold to Lowell, you can ignore this.
But if you get a letter from Lowell asking you to set up a payment arrangement, I suggest you reply saying what happened with Hoist. If you have the letter or email from Hoist saying they cannot produce the CC, attach that.
If Lowell persists, send them a new request to produce the CCA.
“Lowell has asked me to pay an old debt but it’s statute barred”
You may assume the debt is statute barred if it has been more than six years since you paid it. But it isn’t always easy to tell, see Statute barred debt – common questions. If you talk to National Debtline on 0808 808 4000 about this, they have a template letter you can sent Lowell to say the debt is statute barred.
When there is already a CCJ, the debt will never become statute-barred, but it becomes harder to enforce, see next question. If Lowell say there is a CCJ, but you knew nothing about this and it doesn’t show on your credit record, ask Lowell to produce the details of the CCJ.
“Lowell has sent me a letter about an old Hoist CCJ I have never paid”
Talk to National Debtline on 0808 808 4000 about this. A debt collector can only “enforce” a CCJ that is more than 6 years old which you have not been paying if it goes back to court to get special permission.
Have you had a problem with this transfer?
Leave a comment below this article!
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David Palmer says
@Diane what is apparent from the replies here and on other sites is that Lowell will try to persuade people to keep on paying a debt they have no legal right to chase. They seem to pull all kinds of stunts, like sending an application slip not a the CCA.
As for “Credit Agreement is unavailable ”
If they can’t produce it they can’t enforce the debt, see Sara’s message above re CONC 7.15.8.
Sara will advise you fully but why keep an SO going if there is a chance they have no right, change the SO to transfer to your Savings Account, then wait and see. You can always pay it to them later but you will never get it back if you pay them and they were not entitled.
Tony says
Hi Sara
Just want to relay my gratitude to you for this site you have produced and great advice with all different scenarios your readers are faced with ,which can be very stressful .
I followed your advice to the tee.Had 3 large debts bought by Lowell.Asked for the CCA for each .Still paid via StepChange my monthly payments for 2 months after the request .So this month there was no payment ,asked Step Change to cancel my plan ,they actually tried to advise against it . Anyway logged in to my Lowell account today ,and there was a note in each account saying fully paid off ,zero balance.
Just hold your nerve and follow Sara’s advice and strategies ,it works ,happy days ,thanks again.Finally I am confident my 2 debts with Cabot will go the same way ,as they have not produced CCA after 3 months .
Many thanks
Tony
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I am very pleased this has worked for you and I hope the same approach will work for your Cabot debts. There is no guarantee that it will, of course.
Tony says
Thanks, of course ,will post if I get it over the line
Chris says
Hi Sara regarding my issues with Lowell that my debt should have been statued barred but wasn’t due to a mystery payment of £2.43 I took it further to the financial ombudsman and Lowell came back and offered to clear the debt and give me a £100 compensation so thank you with all your advice and help much appreciated
Sara (Debt Camel) says
That is VERY good news.
Guy says
They have been doing exactly the same with me chasing a statute barred debt but like above stating I paid £0.53 in cash. Complete and utter nonsense, I have now been referred to there complaints team. I will be taking this to the financial ombudsman today and hope for a similar outcome. This is completely out of order and I feel sorry for anyone who is duped into paying because of these underhand tactics.
Tina says
12 years ago my ex partner ran up various debts in my name, I got a debt management company to take on these debts and paid monthly until 2018 when I was asked by the debt management company to pay a lump sum to clear the debt. Which I did so. 2 years later I got bombarded with letters, phone calls and visit from lowell and Cabot. As far as I’m concerned the accounts were closed. The debt management company aren’t answering me. And I’m still getting letters from companies chasing the debt. The last payment would have been in 2018 . What should I do? Ignore them ? I’m in a right state over this.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
who was the debt management company?
Tina says
Pegasus legal.
Based in Birmingham
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Pegasus Legal was previous band name of Pegasus Solicitors. Their contact details are (from https://www.sra.org.uk/consumers/register/organisation/?sraNumber=618063#headingOffices):
288 Central Road, Morden, SURREY, SM4 5RG, England
020 8090 0811
rc@pegasussolicitors.co.uk
I suggest you phone them and ask about this.
Do you have evidence (emails, letters) that you were asked to settle these debts and paid the lump sum?
Tina says
Yes, I have all those, the person dealing with my account on the occasions I got a response said she had since left the company. She assured me the account was closed after I paid the lump sum. Since then I have had no response from her or pegasus.
Thank you for your swift reply
Ps. None of the debts show on my credit file
Tina says
Hi Sara, I tried looking into Pegasus legal, it appears they’ve disappeared, the person dealing with my account, after researching her, appears to have gone bankrupt a couple of times, so I contacted, Cabot and Lowell, sent postal orders for CAA , Cabot replied saying there was no postal order enclosed so won’t provide CAA, when indeed there certainly was. And now are sending letters and emails daily, Lowell completely ignored my request and are bombarding me with emails .
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Send Lowell a complaint saying they have not responded to your CCA request sent on dd/mm/yy
Send Cabot another postal order and this time take a photograph of the letter with the postal order sitting on it. This is annoying but probably the quickest and simplest way forward
Tina says
Do I make the postal order payable to anyone? I think I left the top lined blanket on the last one as it had stars printed on it thank you so much for your help.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
This https://www.postoffice.co.uk/postal-orders says there should always be a payee name on a postal order
Tina says
Payable to Lowell/Cabot? Or CAA ? Sorry for being thick.😬
I will resend to both
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Lowell haven’t denied getting the postal order – don’t send another CCA letter, complain you haven’t had a response to the first one
Ask Cabot who the postal order should be made payable to
Tina says
Hi Sara, finally had a response from Lowell about the CCA letter I sent them months ago. They say that it cannot be found due to the age of the debt, and have asked how I want to proceed with my account. I’m not sure of how to respond to this. I would be grateful for any advice on this. Thank you in advance .
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you say that you will not be making a payment as the debt is unenforceable.
Tina says
Thank you Sara
Diane says
Hi Sara
I am now beginning to receive letters stating debt collectors informing me that they have not got a copy of the CCA for the debt. I have been making small monthly payments to the debt collectors since 2015. They are no longer on my credit file and my credit file is now excellent. The debts will not be statute barred as I have had an agreement in place to pay them a monthly amount. Now that I have been informed that they cannot produce the CCA am I in a position to stop paying the monthly amounts it affecting my credit report or taking me to court or having a CCJ put against my name? I would welcome your advice
Sara (Debt Camel) says
How long ago did you ask for the CCA agreements?
Diane says
I have only recently requested the reports, approx three to four weeks ago
regards
Diane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Well you can stop paying if you want, but if they then produce the CCA – whioch at this point may well happen – you will have to start paying again.
I usually think it’s easier to carry on paying for 2-3 months. At that point it is much less likely that the CCA will turn up.
Until it turns up, the debt is unenforceable in court and the debt collector should not start court action. These debts will devel reappear on your credit record.
Diane says
Thank you Sarah
Can I clarify are you saying these debts will never reappear on my credit report ?
Can the debt collector start court action if the CCA turns up?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
These debts will never reappear on your credit record. If they do, you can complain and get them removed.
If the debt collector finds the CCA and you do not start repaying, they may well go to court for a CCJ. The CCJ would then show on your credit record.
If the debt collector finds the CCA and you do start repaying, the debt collector doesn’t normally go to court. See the comments below https://debtcamel.co.uk/ask-cca-agreement-for-debt/ – there are pages of them. I don’t think any of them show this problem.
Diane says
Who would I complain too and would it definitely get removed? I worry about doing this if there is a chance it would mess up my credit rating again.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It should not reappear and if it does it is an error. This would be incredibly unusual – it is not a normal problem to have. You would complain to the creditor.
Norma says
Hello
I have three debts with Moorecroft, the debts are 10 years old and I have been paying an agreed monthly amount for the last ten years. These debts are no longer on my credit file and I have a good with experian now. I have written and requested the CCA for each of the debts. I have received two letters informing me that they do not have the CCA and I have received a letter today for the third debt with a copy of the signed by me CCA. Please can I ask what my options are regarding this outcome. With regards to the two debts with no CCA can I stop paying the monthly amount ? With regards to the debt with for which they have produce the CCA shall I continue to ay the agreed monthly amount or am I in a position to ask then if they will accept a lower settlement figure. I am in a position were my parent may be able to help with this but they are retired so it won’t be the full amount which is £4500. Please can you advise
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So Moorcroft are collecting on behalf of which lender?
Norma says
Barclaycard,Egg and the lender which they have sent the CCA is Intelligent finance, all credit cards
Sara (Debt Camel) says
And how large is the IF balance?
How much can you afford to pay a month?
Norma says
the IF balance is £4500
I could afford £50.00 per month without involving my parents, if I involve my parents maybe a higher monthly payment possibly an additional £50 .
Sara (Debt Camel) says
There is no reason why you parents should help you make bigger monthly payments.
You could tell Moorcroft that you can offer them £40 a month (if you are SURE you can pay that every month) or you parents could offer £1500 if that would settle the debt now.
Norma says
Thank you for your advice Sara
Susan says
Hi there
This looks like a great site and gives hope I can work things out. I have an IVA that has 4 months left to run. However, in the last 12 months, I have only made x 4 payments of £50 and I really could not afford those. My mortgage rose from £429 a month to £1078 a month. I am a single Mum and I am working every single hour possible just to keep my head above water. I have now been sent a breach notice. I have supplied everything that has been asked for and now waiting for them to respond.
I owed £13k but since I took out the IVA it seems that £6k of that was secured on my home. I raised this and made a complaint but nobody responded. I have paid about £5.5k already. I really need a decent credit score because my mortgage expires before I retire and I am worried they will make me sell my home.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Who is your IVA firm?
Is your mortgage repayment or interest only?
Susan says
Hi Sara
My IVA firm is Debt Movement. originally Jarvis. My mortgage sadly is interest only, with the exception of about 30k.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You need to urgently contact your Insolvency Practioner about this. This will be either laura.prescott@debtmovementuk.co.uk or Kate.cutler@debtmovementuk.co.uk – you should have been told the name of your IP when your IVA was set up or when it was transferred from Aperture.
Use the word complaint in the email title.
You need to say what has happened and ask for your IVA to be “completed on the basis of the funds paid to date” not failed. Explain you are only in breach because of the large mortgage increase.
Let me know what happens.
IainHL says
For completeness I should report that eventually, after a follow up letter chasing a response about the Hoist debt being statute barred, my partner has received a letter from Lowell stating they have closed the account and will not be taking any further action to pursue the debt.
Thank you Sara for the article and your response further up these comments.
Dan says
Hi, what address do I use to send a letter to Lowell regarding debt being statute barred. I’m completing the national debt line sample letter, but on the letter I’ve received from Lowell, as it’s an old debt they put from Hoist. I know it is over 6 years old and the debt fell of my credit file over 6 months ago.
Would somebody be able to help me with the address I need to send it to please as there’s no clear address on the back of the letter.
Also, would I also be able to send the same letter via email too. The letter, I will send recorded delivery, so I know it has been received.
Thank you for your help everyone.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
did you make any payments to Hoist for this debt?
Dan says
Hi Sara, no I didn’t. No contact was ever made.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You don’t need to send this by letter recorded delivery. Email it to support@lowellgroup.co.uk with Statute Barred debt as the title.
Daniel Dublin says
I’m about to send this email. I’m sending debt line statue barred letter template. Should I add my address at the top of the email or leave that out as they should have that via their reference number? They also sent me 3 other emails which are also statue barred debts, so I’m ready to email them all one by one but I just want to check if I need to include my address or leave that out please?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If NDL think it is statute barred, I suggest you send their latter.
Daniel says
NDL thought my 4 debts were barred but it turns out 2 must have been short. 2 are barred and I will no longer receive contact regarding them but two are now being sent to county court. I can’t afford to pay them as I’m not in a position to that. What would my next steps be? This is what Lowell sent?
Your account ******** is closed with a balance of £0.00
Regarding your account, *******; although this debt still exists, the time for recovering it by court proceedings has now expired.
Therefore, we’ve decided to close the account and will not be contacting you again about this matter.
Your accounts ******* and ******** are not statute barred under the Limitation Act 1980.
This is because litigation action has already taken place on the accounts.
A County Court Judgement was applied against the respective accounts under the claim numbers *******. As the Court deemed you legally liable the accounts will never become statute barred.
There are no payment plans in place for your accounts ******* and ******. Please advise on how you wish to proceed.
How do I respond to Lowell and what does litigation action has already taken place? I’ve never made contact with them. The only thing I did was send the statue barred NDL letter template.
I’ve blanked out the accounts with **.
Can you help me on my next steps please.
Thank you
Sara (Debt Camel) says
” two are now being sent to county court.”
That isn’t what Lowell have said. They are saying that those two debts have already been to court and you have CCJs for them. Were you aware of these CCJs? Do they show on your credit record?
Daniel says
I’m not aware of them. I have one ccj and I agreed with the court to pay £1 a month. I’ll double check who that ccj was originally through but I don’t think it is with them but I’ve never seen any other ccjs apart from the one I’ve been paying £1 month for, over the last year or so.
David says
Daniel, slow down, these guys are getting you dizzy. So you have a couple of “backdoor” CCJ’s does that mean you have more money to service debt, no it doesn’t. A CCJ runs for 6 years, so start with Registry Trust who will give you details of any CCJ’s, they charge £6 per address but I made an SAR with a bunch of addresses and they complied with it for free.
Personally, I would not worry about CCJ’s, you only need to be concerned with debt if you need credit, there is very little enforcement that they can do if you do not have the income. If your income is as low as it sounds and you don’t see life improving in the next year speak to National Debtline about a DRO which is a £90 mini bankruptcy for debts under £30k. Also speak to others in the same boat on sites like Money Saving Expert, they have a debtfree wannabee that is non-judgemental.
I would drop the debt collector a line saying you are taking advice from debt charity and seeking breathing space so please do not contact you again, you will inform them in due course. Remember these goons only have the power you give them, you are in control, obviously if you have a disposable income and want to rebuild your credit speak to National Debtline about that objective.
Try not to worry, especially at this time of year.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
if these CCJs aren’t real then the debts are statute barred. If they are from Hoist/Lowell, the debts aren’t statute barred.
Of course a DRO may be a great idea. But its good to be clear what your debts are
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok, if that CCJ wasn’t from Hoist or Lowell, go back and say you are unaware of any CCJs for these two loans and can they please provide the details of when this was obtained.
Daniel says
Should I word it as you have said in your reply “ok, if that CCJ wasn’t from Hoist or Lowell, go back and say you are unaware of any CCJs for these two loans and can they please provide the details of when this was obtained.” Or could you write how I need to reply to that email from Lowell as there is only one ccj on my credit file. There’s never been any others, so I’m not sure what’s going on there.
Thank you for your help
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No you can’t just use that wording, that is me talking to you.
Can you look back and find out who the CCJ you know about is from?
John says
Hi,
Lowell have never written to me (not even once), all I get is aggressive phone calls demanding I speak to them and I refuse. All I tell them to do is write to me and I will get the debt paid. What are my rights when it comes to demanding a letter over harassing phone calls and text messages?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
This was a debt that was with Hoist? Were you making payments to it? What sort of debt was it originally?
John says
Hi, I made some payments but nothing in an agreement. I told Hoist that I would be able to pay the whole debt off in a couple of months because of some money coming my way. Never received a letter from Hoist to say that it was moving to Lowell and Lowell have never written to me. They have texted and called me but I have asked them to write me a letter first. That was back in April and I have received nothing.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
what sort of debt was this and how long ago did it default?
John says
Barclay Card and the default was 10 years ago. However they (Barclaycard) have had to wipe off £4K after reviews and PPI. There was roughly £1K left to buy the last time I talked to Hoist but I have raised other disputes with Barclaycard directly.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
so are these disputes still carrying on?
Dan says
Hi all, I need some advice please ..
National debt line felt my 4 very old debts were statued barred but it turns out 2 must have been short or what I think Lowell are saying is that the a ccj was applied, which I never knew about. I’ve never had a ccj showing regarding these 2 accounts or received any court papers etc. I sent Lowell the national debt line statue barred letter template via email as they said email would be fine as well. Lowell came back and said two debts were statued barred and they said I’d not receive any more contact regarding them too anymore.
What would my next steps be?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I have deleted all of the stuff you have Said in your previous thread yesterday.
Ask Lowell for the dates if these two CCJs as they don’t show on your credit report (I assume you have checked your credit report)
Iain says
Sara.
I have a long standing debt ( over 10 years) with Barclays. It was passed through several credit agencies over time, latterly with Hoist and finally with Lowell who have been chasing relentlessly over the last couple of months, even offering a 50% discount last month (December2023) ona debt of just under 4k.
What would you suggest is my best course of action please. Ask for the CCA and go from there. Are they able to instruct bailiffs ?
Just tired with this now and want it finished with.
TIA
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Are you making payments to this debt? What sort of debt was it – loan, credit card, overdraft?
Iain says
Hi Sara.
It has been with Lowell for a year now..
It was an overdraft with Barclays that I haven’t paid for 10 years. Previous to that I was paying and reducing the debt from 9k to 4k
David says
@Iain I suggest you read all the posts above so you understand the tactics that Lowell has allegedly used with other people on the databases it bought.
Then visit the National Debtline website looking at pages about Statute Barred Debts.
Then call National Debtline with any questions.
Some of the responses from Lowell include
“well the debt is still owed”
Which might technically be true but it is against rules to try to enforce such a debt (rules quoted in replies to other posts)
Several people have alleged that micro payments have been made which the debtor completely deny and have no knowledge of.
These people chase debt that they are fully aware are unenforceable, if you find this to be the case do make an FSO complaint about their conduct being against the FCA Consumer Duty to always act in the best interest of the consumer.
Iain says
Not paid anything towards the debt in 10 years or more.
Debt was an overdraft I think, but could’ve been a loan, I really can’t remember as it was so long ago.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Then it sounds as though it may be statute barred, that is too old for the creditor to take to court. Talk to National Debtline about this. They have a template letter you can send Lowell if they think it is.
Iain says
Hi Sara.
I have now had a letter dated 26/5/24 & phone call today from a company named Resolve Call advising that they have now been asked by their client Lowell to collect the outstanding debt (which is well over 10 probably 20 years old). As Hoist and Lowell previously, they have offered to reduce the debt by 40% if I satisfy the outstanding amount. Is this the latest tack to bully me into paying up?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Did you send a statute barred letter?
Iain Biles says
Not yet as I have been away for a couple of months.
Sara.
Just a follow up from my previous email. I have just checked my records with Trust online for 2 addresses covering the last 30 years. Nothing has come up on either address, so would you say that this debt is now unenforceable? Seems peculiar that things have moved from Robinson Way>Hoist>Lowell> and now Resolve Call. Is this just a tactic to confuse?
Regards
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Lowell took over all Hoist debts.
They have asked Resolvecall to collect on their behalf as you didn’t set up a payment arrangement.
If you has sent them the statute barred letter, it may well have stopped at that point. I suggest you send it now
Iain says
Sara.
Sent statute barred letters to both Lowell & ResolveCall back in July. No written response from either of them, but ResolveCall phone regularly once or twice every week and at random times too. What would you suggest is the next move please?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
email Lowell and complain that they have not responded to your letter/email about statute barring dated dd/mm/yy
tell resolve call you are disputing the debt with lowell as it is statute barred
Iain says
Thanks Sara.
I’ll write to them again, not email, as I don’t want to give either of them another line of communication!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
email is better. You then have a record of what was sent when.
Iain says
Hi Sara.
Had a letter from Resolvecall today advising that they wouldn’t be taking the matter any further, but I may hear from other debt collectors.
Then, this afternoon had a text message from Lowell say they’ve tried to get hold me to speak about the alleged debt.
What should be my next move. Say I won’t be paying anything as the debt is unenforceable?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Phone them up and say they have not responded to your letter dated dd/mm/yy saying that the debt is statute barred. Say you want to make a complaint about this and say you will not be paying this unless they can provide evidence that it is not statute barred. Remind them that CONC 7.15 says “A firm must not continue to demand payment from a customer after the customer has stated that he will not be paying the debt because it is statute barred.”
Diane says
Dear Sara
In September last year I contacted you regarding debts I had with Lowell and I am so pleased to inform you that having sent the advised consumer Credit Agreement Act 1974 letter I have recently received a letter form Lowell informing me that ‘as we have not been unable to provide the requested documents, we have decided not to pursue the outstanding balance. Thank you so very much for your help with this.
I would like to ask your advice about three final debts
On 20/9/23 I sent the advised Consumer Credit Agreement Act 1974 Letter to – CSL (debt Lloyds bank Credit Card) Cabot (debt NRAM Loan)
Link (debt MBNA credit card).
CSL responded on the 4/10/23 informing me that the Credit Agreement was not available
Cabot responded on the 13/10/23 informing me that they had not been able to obtain the information requested
Link responded on the 19/10/23 informing me that the ‘original creditor could not comply with their request and therefore the account was considered unenforceable, but the outstanding balance remained collectable and it was acceptable for creditors to register and continue the reporting of a default’
It’s four months since I have received these letters and I would be grateful if you could advise me of my next step, do I need to send another letter, can I stop paying?
Once again thank you for your support
Kind regards Diane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Lowell – good!
CSL & Cabot – I suggest you ask CSL & Cabot to confirm that the debt is currently unenforceable
Link – you can stop paying now, and tell link you will not be making any payments while the debt in unenforceable
Diane says
Hi Sara
Thank you for your response
Have just looked back on letters and Cabot has said ‘until they can supply Consumer Credit Act document account in unenforceable
CSL have just said Credit agreement unavailable and would like to take the opportunity to review circumstances and complete income and expenditure form. Is there a template letter re asking them to confirm the debt is unenforceable?
Kind regards
Diane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No template letter – just reply asking them to confirm that.
Diane says
Hi Sara
Re my previous email about CSL on the 22/2/24 . I have sent them a letter asking to confirm that the debt is unenforceable. It it just coming up to two weeks since I sent the letter and they have not replied. Are you able to give me any advice re how long I wait for a reply and if they don’t reply can I still cancel the monthly payments, do I send them a second letter ?
Kind regards
Diane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You can cancel the monthly payment now if you want. If you do, I suggest you tell them by email that as they haven’t replied to your letter, you are assuming the debt is currently unenforceable and you will not be paying until they produce a true copy of the CCA statement.
Lauren says
Lowell contacted me about a Hoist debt asking me to set up a payment plan and I was fairly sure the debt was statute barred, emailed telling them so and received this the next day;
Responding to your query
I can confirm that this account is now extinguished under Section 6 of the Prescription and Limitation (Scotland) Act 1973. Therefore we’ve closed the account and will not contact you again to request payment.
Next Steps
If you have any queries regarding this, or if we can be of any further assistance, please don’t hesitate to get back in touch.
So if you are in any doubt then it’s certainly worth stating when you believe a debt is statute barred. Lowell would have happily allowed me to pay them.
Just wanted to thank Sara for keeping us all informed as its so helpful
Nick says
Hi Sara,
After being contacted by Hoist a couple of years ago regarding a debt from 1997, I asked them to supply the original CCA which after many attempts they failed to do. Two months ago, I received a letter from Lowell, stating that my account was passed to Solicitors who have contacted me regarding legal action (received no such correspondence) They also stated that they can see from my records that a CCJ was obtained on 29-06-22 for the outstanding balance (Again, this is news to me and there’s currently no CCJ on my credit file)
I created an online account, emailed and gave them both my responses and also asked for the original CCA. Subsequently, they have now replied confirming that they were unable to find any supporting documentation but have identified that my account was subject to litigation action which secured a CCJ in 2009 and provided a claim number.
They have now placed my account on hold and are waiting for my response. From my understanding I don’t think this is statute barred as I was making a monthly payment until I reviewed this back in 2021.
I would appreciate any advice and whether this debt is unenforceable as Hoist confirmed it was, many thanks.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Was there a previous debt collector before Hoist?
Do you have the email or letter from Hoist saying that they could not produce the CCA? This was in 2021 when you stopped paying?
so Lowell first told you there was a CCJ in June 2022, but are now saying that is wrong and that there was one from 2009?
Nick says
Thanks for the quick response, I think it was Robinsons way before them.
Yes, this was finally confirmed in an email on the 28-03-23
Yes that’s correct, I don’t have any confirmation in any correspondence of either.
Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The issue seems to be whether there ever was a CCJ. I suggest you ask Lowell to produce any evidence about this.
Point out that neither Robinson Way nor Hoist mentioned the fact these was a CCJ. And that Hoist tried to locate the CCA agreement and said they couldn’t, which they would not have tried to do if there was a CCJ. And that so far you have been told a surprising variety of different stories by Lowell – that your account was posted to solicitors, that there was a CCJ obtained on June 2022…
If there was a CCJ then the fact the CCA agreement cannot be produced is irrelevant.
David says
Hi Sara
Is there a reason you did not post my reply to Nick?
I am fine with you editing if you do not agree with something
Just trying to make it helpful for all readers and my message would encourage new readers to post the essential information which Nick did not do.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It seemed long, convoluted (what was the stuff about Lego about?), full of abbreviations, to assume that Nick was talking bout 2 different debts, wrong in places (CCJs never expire) and to miss the main point about whether there actually ever was a CCJ…
Nick says
Hi Sara,
Many thanks for your advice on this. are you able to confirm that if there is a CCJ for the debt, is it Lowell’s responsibility to provide evidence of this or mine? All they’ve given me is a claim reference no, so any suggestions on how I can find documentation supporting the CCJ supposedly obtained against me in 2009?
Thanks again.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you ask the court, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/unknown-ccj-credit-record/
Diane says
Hi Sara
Re email 5/3/24 ref CSL. I have received letter from Lloyds Bank (original lender) saying, they are answering my complaint This must be due to requesting the CCA documentation. They only keep historic information for 6 years. I defaulted was on 0/9/2010. Debt assigned to third party on 17/9/15. CSL have written to me today enclosing letter from Lloyds which I had already received from Lloyds directly asking me to contact them re current financial situation and payments. I am presuming that I am still in same position as no evidence of CCA and can write to say I am stopping payments. As you have suggested above.
Regards Diane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you reply to say that as they cannot produce the CCA agreement, the debt is unenfocaeble until they can, and that you will not be making any payments while it remains unenforceable
Katie says
Thanks for providing this page, it has answered almost all of my questions.
What is clear to me from the mail I have received and others on this page is that Lowell either tell lies, stretch the truth or mislead people into paying debts that are unenforceable. They allege three debts:
one debt became statute barred at least 8 years ago, no CCJ as far as I am aware, another where a CCJ was obtained but is past 6 years since judgement and they allege that a third has a CCJ too,
I checked the TrustOnline site for CCJ’s and there is no record of a CCJ for the third debt. I think they are referring one that will become statute barred in a few months, the amount is a bit more but the creditor is a different bank, I am guessing that the debt was sold or the bank taken over.
There is a fourth debt that has at least 3 years to run, I have no reason to think that Lowell are collecting this at this time.
It seems to me that Lowell use debts that they know are not enforceable just to get you to engage with them and protest. I suspect that they take this engagement as an acknowledgement to extend and/or come after you for the valid debts.
I know that there is a risk of them getting a CCJ but I have no money anyway, so I have decided to wait at least until the third debt has past the 6 years, I gather it can take a while to get on the CCJ database.
Can you please refer me to where these “conc” rules are ?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I think you should talk these through with National Debtline on 0808 808 4000. Ignoring contacts hoping the debts will become statute barred is not often a sensible approach.
In particular if you receive a Letter Before Action/Claim (see https://debtcamel.co.uk/letter-before-claim-ccj/ for why one of these looks like) you should NOT ignore it or you may get a CCJ very fast.
The CONC rules are in here https://www.handbook.fca.org.uk/handbook/CONC/
Katie says
Thanks Sara
I totally agree with you about it not always being a sensible approach, but I did call National Debtline before posting but after reading this page in full. That was a magic referral, they spent over an hour on the phone with me.
The thing is I don’t see the point in fighting a CCJ, I can’t defend it and I have dealt with these blood sucking companies before, National Debtline advisor agreed with that because of the age of most of my debt that I should wait the few months, if they get the CCJ I will get a DRO and if not I will either wait out the other one or may still go DRO for a clean start. I saw your new page on DRO changes and that is superb info. https://debtcamel.co.uk/dros-changes-2024-budget/
I saw the DRO limit increased to £50 and no more fee, should I put my expired CCJ’s on there so that they are well and truly finished forever.
Most of my debt was caused by my Ex who was an abusive alcoholic, I only took out the last card when I finally got the courage to get refuge and needed money to fund that. My Ex agreed to pay it off but that was another broken promise.
I will never take out or be eligible credit again so credit record is meaningless to me, I just want it over.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If you go for a DRO you should list every possible debt that you have not repaid – including old CCJs (they don’t actually expire) and also statute barred debt – stops any possible hassle in future from them.
Diane says
Hi Sara
Re me email to you on the 18th of March. I wrote a letter to CSL stating that as they could not produce the CCA the debt was unenforceable. I have received a response from them informing me that they had been in contact with their client Lloyds bank who have informed them that the debt is enforceable. However I received a letter from LLoyds bank complaints department on 6/2/24 following CSL reaching out to them for I presume a copy of the CCA informing me that because my complaint was over 9 years old from when I first defaulted (2004) they did not have any information as they are only required to keep historic information for six years. So how can can CSL tell me that their client say this debt is enforceable., neither can produce the CCA . Please can you advise ? Kind regards Diane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Send CSL a complained, cc’d to Lloyds.
Say the FCA rule CONC 13.1.6 says:
“(1) Failure to comply with the provisions [by no supplying a tru copy of the Consumer Credit Act Agreement] means that the agreement becomes unenforceable while the failure to comply persists, and the courts have no discretion to allow enforcement.
(2) In such cases, a firm should in no way, either by act or omission, mislead a customer as to the enforceability of the agreement.”
Let me know what the response is.
Diane says
Will do, thank you
Diane says
Hi Sara
If one of the debt collection companies write back saying the following were do I stand?
‘We have currently classified the debt as unenforceable, which mean we are not able to take court action or further enforce action to recover the debt.Please be advised this does not mean your debt has been written off, despite being unenforceable we are still legally entitled to contact you and ask you repay what you owe, pass your details on to a third party collection agency, continue to report your accountwith the credit reference bureaux (as appropriate)’
Kind regards
Diane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Does the debt show on your credit record?
Diane says
Not on more this debt goes back to 2007
Diane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Well it should not reappear.
I suggest you keep a record of contacts and requests to pay. If it gets to be unreasonable, you can complain, But otherwise just ignore them!
Norma says
Hi Sarah
With reference to my emails to you between 1/11/23 and 5/11/23 regarding Moorcroft. As advised the debt that they produced the CCA for I wrote offering a partial settlement figure. I have just received a letter from Moorcroft re my offer of partial payment. In my offer letter I stated that the funds (£1500)to pay this were coming from family. This is what they have said ” in order to assist you further provide us with further information which we can pass on to our client for them to consider partial settlement offer. Reason for settlement, copy of financial income and expenditure, list of all other creditors, your repayment settlement terms with them, reason for offering partial settlement and confirmation of funds. If offer is declined what will your monthly offer be. The other two debts that I have with Moorcroft they could not produce the CCA but I have not stopped paying these yet as I feel this may put me in a vulnerable position re the the debt they have produced the CCA for, so feel I need to sort this out first What is your view ? I would be grateful if you could advise me re way forward. Norma
Sara (Debt Camel) says
What is the point of asking for the CCA if you carry on paying them?
Norma says
Hi Sara
My email to you on the 6th April and your response. I understand what you are saying. I suppose I was just concerned that once I stopped paying the other two debts with Moorcroft they could get difficult about the debt they have produced the CCA for.
Can you advise do I just respond to their request regarding further information required to make a decision as to whether or not thy accept my full and final settlement figure. Norma
T
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Well they won’t accept a partial settlement offer if you don’t provide the details they ask for.
I suggest you also stop paying the other two debts and start paying that amount to the debt they have produced the CCA for. Unless you are short of money… in which case you may need to reduce it.
Lin says
Dear Sara, I have followed advice you have given others re Lowell and have requested a copy of the CCA for an HSBC debt owned originally by Robinson Way, Hoist and now Lowell. The debt was initially incurred in 2005. Lowell have responded saying there is a CCJ against this debt from 2009 and section 77 and 78 of the act does not apply and the full debt is still enforceable. I have never seen a CCJ on my credit file and never received any letter from court re a CCJ. I have searched Trust on Line and there is nothing against my name. Obviously if its form 2009 it wold have fallen off my credit file now. I received a letter dated 2019 from HC Solicitors informing me that Hoist were now the legal owners of the debt(transferred from Robinson Way) and they had applied to the court to substitute claimant details. I do have a copy of this document. I have this a copy of this document. When I received this letter I thought it was just a legal process between Hoist and Robinson Way. if Hoist had to do this to transfer debt legally why haven”t Lowell done this as it is has transferred over to them. How can I find out if I do have a CCJ from 2009 and if I find out I do can Lowell still pursue me for this debt. I would be very grateful for your advice on this. Kind regards Lin
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If there is a CCJ, then the creditor does not have to produce the CCA agreement.
I received a letter dated 2019 from HC Solicitors informing me that Hoist were now the legal owners of the debt(transferred from Robinson Way) and they had applied to the court to substitute claimant details
That suggests that there was a CCJ before then. It is a pity you did not follow this up at the time.
You can Ask Lowell for the details of the CCJ and then check them with the court. But this CCJ is probably genuine.
Lin says
Ok, thank you, I will ask Lowell for a copy of the original CCJ. I was not aware that a CCJ was against my name and I never saw this on my credit file at the time, which is strange, hence the reason when the letter arrived from HC solicitors in 2019 I thought it was for a transferring of the debt from one debt collecting agency to another I just can’t understand if there was a CCJ in place why the debt collectors did not pursue the debt more aggressively and why was I not aware of a CCJ in 2009 until 2019 … strange.
So if this is genuine and the CCJ has fallen off my credit file now, what are my options as this original debt goes back to 2009?
Kind regards
Lin
Lin says
Dear Sara
I have already sent you an email today regarding your response to my queries about Lowelll and a CCJ form 2009 which I was not aware of. . Since emailing you I have managed to contact via phone County Court of Northampton (Business Centre) and they cannot find the claim number that have been supplied with and they also informed me that the claim number I have is not like claim numbers they give to judgments and questioned if it was untrue. I have written to Lowell to ask for a copy of the CCJ. In addition to my previous email can I ask you are your thoughts re this information form County Court Northampton? Thank you
Lin
Sara (Debt Camel) says
My reaction is that this is certainly worth looking into!
David says
Lin
I would suggest you read the comments on this thread and on other forums like MSE, look at how many times they allege that Lowell staff have misled them.
Technically a CCJ debt can still be owed but can’t be enforced after 6 years so a 2009 CCJ is unenforceable. If you want it gone forever you need to do a bankruptcy or a DRO https://debtcamel.co.uk/dros-changes-2024-budget/ but there is no need to worry if it is that old.
It is extremely common for certain debt collectors to obtain a CCJ at an old address alleging that it is a last known address. So the debtor is unaware and creditor get another 6 years to enforce the CCJ before they need further permission from a Court to extend (unlikely). Such companies probably have your current address as they have alerts with the Credit Reference companies from things like Broadband, Mobile or Energy purchases.
So the only way they can legitimately chase a 2009 CCJ is if the Judgement date was since April 11th 2018 unless they went to Court to ask for more time, which “might” be why they give you some wrong reference number. Registry Trust depend on the correct address, so consider an SAR for all your data at different addresses.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
CCJs never become statute barred but they do become harder to enforce. And the older, the harder.
Lin says
Thank you for responding, to my recent email regarding this situation
Re the address, I have been at the same address since 1999, so they won’t have used another address, unless they went back to my address from 1999, is that possible especially when the debt is linked to my existing address?
So I suppose the question is how do I find out if the judgment is legitimate, do I write to the court and give them as much detail as I can including my existing address and my address from 1999?
I have written to Lowell asking them for a copy for the CCJ and I have also written to the two solicitors who appear to have been involved.
Could it be that it is not a CCJ and the document that I was sent was a legal document confirming the transfer of the debt from one company to another and this is now just being used as a threat? Obviously it will be interesting to see what if anything comes back from Lowell and the solicitors, if anything!
also ask your advice on , if Hoist applied for a CCJ extension in 2019 wouldn’t this be on my credit file ?
Further investigation into my issue re Lowell and the CCJ. I refer to my email and your response dated 11/4/24 in which I said I had received a letter from HC solicitors informing me that Hoist were now the legal owners of the debt transferred from Robinson Way (2019). I have looked at the court document that HC Solicitors supplied with their letter and the document states the application made to the court is a GSO application. So I understand a GSO application is a Global Substitution Order “offering a speedy, low cost alternative for substituting the new owner as claimant in portfolio of numerous”. (from researching it) So I’m thinking if I am correct and this is what what they did when they transferred their portfolio of consumer debts form one organisation to another then this is the claim number that is quoted at the top of my HC letter and this is same he claim number that Lowell are quoting. Not a CCJ claim number. Sorry three emails letter, I would be grateful to hear what you think. Lin
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you talk to National Debtline on 0808 808 4000 about this. And also post on the Legal Beagles forum https://legalbeagles.info/forums/forum/legal-forums/court-claims-and-issues. They may be able to help.
Lin says
Dear Sara
Just to update you. I have rechecked re the CCJ at Northampton County Court and Trust on Line and there is no CCJ recorded at my present address or at my address from 24 years ago. I have my spoken to national debtline who informed me that a GSO application is normally used just for mortgages. They have advised me to write to Lowell requesting copy of CCJ, which I had already done. So it’s just a waiting game now to see what they come back with. I will keep you updated. Thank you for your advice re leaglebeagles. I will wait for a response to my most recent letter from Lowell before I take this any further. Thank you Lin
David says
Lin
Please try not to worry about this, I can see that they have you spinning around with anxiety but I think for no reason. The move of Robinson Way to Hoist Offshore to Hoist onshore and finally to Lowell are simply corporate structures, they were probably the best for their respective tax situations at the time.
Debts are debts, they do not get bigger or fresher with new ownership. If you read my post above you will see that it is extremely unlikely that they can enforce a debt from so many years ago, You need to find the facts, so if they can’t produce the alleged CCJ and if said CCJ was not obtained in the last 6 years then it will likely be unenforceable. Once you have confirmed that you can threaten them with breaching CONC rules as Sara has said to others above and refer them to FSO . I also suggest you speak to National Debtline so you can be reassured.
I find it obscene that they stress people out like this when they know the debt is unenforceable.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
the debt is theoretically not unenforceable if there was a CCJ.
Norma says
Hi Sara
Thank you responding to me about Moorcroft. I have submitted the information they want in order for them to make a decision about my offer for a full and final settlement. Please can you tell me – the debt Moorcroft have managed to produce the CCA for is a debt that I have been paying a token gesture of £3.00 per month for since 2005, now that they have produce the CCA at my request would or could they apply for a CCJ?
Worried Norma
Sara (Debt Camel) says
They could – but they could always have done this,even if you hadn’t asked.
Lin says
Hi Sara
Regarding my emails sent to you on the 11th, 12th and 13th April re Lowell and the CCJ. I have had a reply from them today and this is what they have said ‘As the debt is over six years old it would have expired, this means it will have been removed from the public registry. Lowell does not hold a copy of the CCJ and would have to request from Northampton County Court (Business Centre), however due to the age this will no longer be available’. Please find enclosed Notice of Assignment for account. And this is just a letter telling me that Lowell had taken over the account from. Hoist in March 2023. So if no one including Robinson Way, Hoist, Lowell and Northampton County Court cannot provide evidence of a CCJ were do I stand? And were do Lowell stand or what powers do Lowell have to request an extension (if there had been a CCJ which I knew nothing about). I just cannot understand why someone somewhere wouldn’t have some paperwork relating to this. It just all seems very strange. Lin
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Have you actually made a complaint to lowell so far?
Lin says
All I have done to date is sent them a letter informing them I had been in contact with with Northampton County Court Business Centre who have informed me that they do not have a record of any CCJ and asking them to send me a copy of this if they have it. I also sent a letter to Hoist and the solicitors they had used requesting a copy of the CCJ and I copied Lowell into this. I have not heard back form Hoist or the solicitors they used. But I think the solicitors were just for transferring the ownership of the accounts form Robinson way to Hoist. So having the done the above they have replied to me sating what I have told you in my previous email
Lin
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So I think this is time to complain.
I suggest you send Lowell a formal complaint – email it to ashley.wynn@lowellgroup.co.uk ans copy it to support@lowellgroup.co.uk. Put COMPLAINT ABOUT ALLEGED CCJ as the title
Give your Lowell reference number.
Say that to the best of your knowledge, there was never a CCJ on this debt. Point out you have lived in the same house since 1999 so there is no reason why court papers would have been sent to a different address. Say none of the debt collectors over the years has ever mentioned there being a CCJ, which makes a CCJ seem very unlikely. And that you have never seen a CCJ on your credit record. Say you have asked the County Court business Centre and they said the claim number Lowell gave was not in the correct format and they could not see a CCJ in your name.
Ask Lowell to either produce a copy of the CCJ or a copy of the CCA agreement for the debt. Say that if they cannot produce either of those, ask them to write off the very old debt.
Diane says
Hi Sara , this post to you is in respect of my email to you on 2/4/24 re CSL. As advised I sent the following to CSLS ‘the FCA rule CONC 13.1.6 says: etc. CSL got in contact with Lloyds bank and yesterday I received information Lloyds held on my credit card account (DSAR). Their complaints department have been handling this and they have labelled it Debt Dispute/debt avoidance. I have reviewed paper work and identified following – copies of my recent letters to CSL/Lloyds and theirs to me, copies of conversation/ emails conversations between colleagues in Lloyds re my account, date credit card account opened (2004) date defaulted , date Lloyds transferred debt to CSL 2015, card holder guide 2009, list of payments to Lloyds, list of payments to CSL, personal details, credit card statements, notes between CSL and Lloyds. Looks like Lloyds still own debt and CSL have been managing the repayment. Comments in notes I have identified – internally Lloyds have advised account stays with CSL and recovery strategy will need to continue, ‘CSL are uncomfortable with this you can look to bring it to a case clinic’. This was documented on 8/4/24. The covering letter I received from Lloyds says ‘enclosed is the information you asked for based on what you have told us and your rights. Still no signed CCA. Now that LLoyds have sent this information to me where do I stand re the CCA, and Lloyds involvement/stopping payment, are you able to advise? Thank you Diane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
when was this account opened?
Diane says
9th July 2004
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you talk to National Debtline on 0808 808 4000 about what they have supplied and whether it is adequate. And/or ash on the Legal Beagles forum, see https://legalbeagles.info/forums/forum/money-debt/consumer-credit-act
Diane says
Hi Sara re my email 3/5/24 . As advised contatced legalbeagles and this is their response
You’ve sent a CCA request, they haven’t complied with your CCA request, so the account is ‘unenforceable’ until they do. They should tell you that is the case, they can’t mislead you into believing it is ‘enforceable’.
I would stop payments. Lodge a formal complaint with CSL and Lloyd’s follow their complaints procedure (that will be on their websites), if your not happy once they respond, then you can if you want make a complaint to the FOS. Tell CSL and Lloyds you’re minded to lodge a complaint with the FCA as they are trying to mislead you.
The FCA rule CONC 13.1.6
“(1) Failure to comply with the provisions [by not supplying a true copy of the Consumer Credit Act Agreement] means that the agreement becomes unenforceable while the failure to comply persists, and the courts have no discretion to allow enforcement.
(2) In such cases, a firm should in no way, either by act or omission, mislead a customer as to the enforceability of the agreement.”
This is really interesting – ‘Comments in notes I have identified – internally Lloyds have advised account stays with CSL and recovery strategy will need to continue, ‘CSL are uncomfortable with this you can look to bring it to a case clinic’. If part of the strategy is to mislead you and CSL are uncomfortable with that, I’d lodge a complaint with the FCA. I’m surprised that’s in there.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you carry on the conversation about this on the LB forum
Diane Connolly says
Hi Sarah
rR my post in February, I have now stopped paying Link and Cabot as they cannot produce a CCA. Can you tell me, can the debt collection agency legally register a default on my credit file if the debt was registered initially by the original lender well over ten years ago?
Regards
Diane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
the debt collector has to use the default date that the original lender used. They cannot change this to being later.
Diane says
So just to be clear do you mean the debt collector can put it on again but they have to put it on with the date from for example 2005, or they cannot put it on because to original debt is over six years old. Sorry to ask again.
Regards
Diane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
if they have never added a record, then they could add one with the old default date – which will immediately be automatically deleted as the default date is more than 6 years ago, so this would be pointless.
if they have added one before they cannot re-add it.
Norma says
Hi Sara, on the 5th November 2023 I discussed writing to Moorcroft offering them £1500 as a full and final figure. They have just agreed to this. In their letter they state the following – ‘Once the payment is cleared they will inform their client of this settlement so that, if appropriate they can update your credit file with various credit reference agencies and mark the account as partially satisfied. Any relevant entry on your credit file will be reflected form the date of default’. This debt is over 10 years old and the default goes back to ten. My credit file has been excellent for a long time now as this debt/default has dropped off. Can you advise what is the likelihood they will document the partial payment on my credit file now. Since it was purchased form the original lender Moorcroft have never put anything further on to my credit file. I am presuming this is just a standard letter they have sent out
Sara (Debt Camel) says
A debt that has dropped off as the default was over 6 years ago will not reappear if it is settled, partially or in full.
Diane says
Hi Sara, please can you advise
I stopped paying Link and Cabot some months ago now as they could not produce the CCA. I continue to get texts, letters, emails and phone calls from both requesting that I contact them to set up an arrangement. Please can you advise
Kind regards Diane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
How many are you getting?
Did you tell the debt collectors you would not be paying?
Do the communications mention that the debt is not enforceable?
Diane says
Cabot have said different in their first letter they stated the following – ‘Although your debt is unenforceable, the balance is still outstanding, and we will continue to make contact regarding this account’ The letters following say ‘You don’t have an arrangement in place for this account. We have been trying to reach you to help yo get one set up. We recommend repaying using a payment plan’
Link letters say – ‘Please contact a member of the team at Link on telephone number xxx. if you have already, you can now register to manage your account line. We look forward to hearing from you. Nothing about the account being unenforceable since their very first letter when they informed me they could not locate the CCA and the account was unenforceable.
Regards
Diane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok so you need to go back to Cabot and say something like
– you told me on dd/mm/yy that this debt is currently unenforceable as you have not produced the CCA agreement. I informed you on dd/mm/yy that I would not be making a payments whilst the debt remains unenforceable. I am now getting weekly emails from you that do not mention that the debt is currently unenforceable. I am making a complaint that these are in breach of CONC 13.1.6 (4) which says “The firm should, in any request for payment or communication relating to a payment (other than a statement issued in accordance with the CCA or regulations made under it which does not constitute or contain a request for payment) in such cases, make clear to the customer that although the debt remains outstanding it is unenforceable.”
And to Link say something like:
– you told me on dd/mm/yy that this debt is currently unenforceable as you have not produced the CCA agreement. I informed you on dd/mm/yy that I would not be making a payments whilst the debt remains unenforceable. I am now getting texts, phone calls, emails and letters from you asking me to phone you – these communications do not mention that the debt is currently unenforceable. I am making a complaint that these are is in breach of CONC 13.1.6 (4) which says “The firm should, in any request for payment or communication relating to a payment (other than a statement issued in accordance with the CCA or regulations made under it which does not constitute or contain a request for payment) in such cases, make clear to the customer that although the debt remains outstanding it is unenforceable.”
In addition I am also complaining about the sheer number of these communications which amounts to badgering and a breach of the Consumer Duty. I understand you are entitled to ask for payment but as I have already clearly said that I will not be making a payment while the debt is unenforceable. I do not wish to speak to you on the phone, which would make me anxious. I would like all future communications from you to be by letter.”
Diane says
Sara, I wanted to ask regarding this situation, is there anything at all the debt company can do to recover the debt whilst the debt is unenforceable, other than continue to send letters/emails etc requesting payment?
Regards
Diane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
No. They can’t win a court case against you.
Iain says
Sara.
After the Resolvecall letter and calls, I did as you suggested and sent them the standard letter asking if the debt was statute barred. Only sent off just over a week ago, but am now receiving call from Lowell again.
Question. Would you suggest that I send them a similar letter?
Regards
Sara (Debt Camel) says
yes
Iain Biles says
Sara.
Having sent off letters to both Resolvecall and Lowell, I still haven’t had anything back from either of them in writing in the last 20+ days. Both letters were sent to them signed for.
Despite this, I have had almost daily calls, from both Lowell & Resolvecall to my mobile (which blocks calls) and my new home number, which was only changed last year due to a new provider. What would be your best suggestion regards stopping the calls. Writing to both again?
Iain
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Answer the call and say you will not be responding until they reply to your letter concerning the debt being statute barred.
stacy says
Hi, so like many I received a letter from Lowell to my new address with a notice of assignment about it being assigned to them from Lowell. First letter ever and bearing in mind I lived at my old address for 17 years. So I called and asked what it was about. Something about a loan back in 1998 and a ccj being enter in 2000 not at my address at the time ( would like to add applied for a mortgage in 2004 and nothing was there) my dad was a PG. So a sent them a letter asking why the contact now, no letters from hoist, I wanted all documents and got nothing so. Sent a final letter marking official complaint and also treat it as a letter of claim. Lowell have now not responded to the complaint, they’ve “discontinued” the complaint and referred it to Overdales. But still no proof I owe this. This is 23 years ago how and why can this do this? What are my options? I’m thinking of going to FOS
Sara (Debt Camel) says
when you say “they have discontinued the complaint”, what exactly did they saY?
stacy says
Upon the comments made (reference to my LOC) we have forwarded this to our legal reps overdale who will be handling the matter. As a result, our investigation has been discontinued and closed the complaint as we will now allow our legal rep to deal.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
What did you mean by “Letter of Claim”?
Stacy says
The letter I sent was an official complaint and letter of claim for harassment due them not providing the evidence requested to support their claim the monies are owed. All they have done is provide a claim number, date and an address where it was sent which I have never lived at. The address was for the PG.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you talk to National Debtline on 0808 808 4000 about your options. it wasn’t very sensible saying you would sue them before you had exhausted other options.
Norma says
Sara
I have an RBS debt with Lowell the debt is over 10 years old. Four months ago I wrote asking them for a copy of the CCA. They acknowledged the request and then several weeks down the line sent a second letter informing me that they were waiting to information to be sent from RBS.
Today I have received a letter from Lowell say please find enclosed CCA information as requested. However all that they have sent me is a copy of a few RBS credit card statements and a copy of the terms and agreements related to having a credit card. No signed CCA. Please cn you advise
Norma
Sara (Debt Camel) says
When did you last make a payment to this?
Read https://debtcamel.co.uk/ask-cca-agreement-for-debt/#What_if_they_do_send_the_CCA_agreement which says a bit about what should be on a CCA. if you don’t think what you have been sent is right, talk to National Debtline or Legal beagles as that article suggests.
Dais says
Hi Sara et al
Lowell started pestering me for aged debts that were unenforceable soon after they bought Hoist, I wrote a very firm cease and desist to them to only contact me by Royal Mail, no more SMS, Email or Calls. They carried on with their letters but only for the smallest of the debts (£3800), I was never going to engage with them but GUESS WHAT, for no apparent reason they wrote me a letter that nearly had me spit my morning coffee out.
They simply said they were no longer seeking payment and account balance was zero, I can post the exact words if you want.
I have seen on other forums like MSE that people are reporting them to ICO and FSA for general failures & misconduct not their individual case, one person said they had got a case number and were gathering evidence. So I am not sure whether that had something to do with it.
Sara, have you seen this stunt before? I am waiting for the other shoe to drop, expecting them to try to sell on to even worse group.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
are these debts unenforceable as they are statute barred? or because they have been unable to produce the CCA agreement? Have Lowell agreed they are unenforceable?
Dais says
Hi Sara, the debts are donkeys years old, they became statute barred maybe around 2019, defaulted in 2013. They were sold to Hoist and thus Lowell. No sign of CCJ’s at Registry Trust for any of them. I didn’t engage with them because in my experience it just makes them add you to their hassle list, I knew the debts were unenforceable and if they wanted to pretend there was a payment or a CCJ I knew to challenge that.
So the 20+ letters they sent for this one debt had the balance of £3800 in top right corner, the latest letter has £0.00 it just says
Dear D
Your Account is Closed
We have recently reviewed your account and decided to take no further action to recover the balance.
Then is says something about updating credit reference agencies for 6 years from the date it was reported.
Yours sincerely
Lowell Customer Team
It seems quite rare in GoogleLand (see link) only two occurences.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
did you send them a statute barred letter?
Dais says
No I did not engage other than the cease and desist soon after Lowell bought Hoist, I had not engaged with Hoist either or any of the others. I found a template for that online and spoke to the ICO about it and made it a bit stronger.
That is why I am surprised, they must have known the debt was unenforceable since they acquired Hoist, so they should not have harassed me with all those letters, which started every few days, then every few weeks and then monthly.
Based on what I have read on your site, other sites and forums they play lots of games, this is the only debt account they have closed. I read on one site they re-opened an account. I wonder if they did this to the smallest account as a way of getting me to call them, something I have no intention of doing.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
well it is a pity you did not sent a statute barred letter previously when Lowell bough the debts. If you don’t communicate, they don’t get bored and give up. I suggest you send statute barred letters to the ones they are continuing to contact you about.
If I had to make a guess, I would say that the debt they have now told you they will not be be seeking payment for is one of some group which has come to their attention and everyone in that group has had a similar communication.
Norma says
Hi Sara
I emailed you in April 7th and 10th re Moorcroft. I had three debts with them tow they produced the CCA for and they have agreed to take a full and final settlement for one of these. Once I have paid this then I will propose full and final settlement for the third. As mentioned in previous emails to you my family are supporting me with this.
The third debt which they have not produced the CCA for I am still paying and have made a decision to do this until I have sorted out the two with the CCA is a Egg account, but must be owned by barclaycard now. Today I have received a letter form barclaycard stating that they have transferred the account to PRA Group who will service the debt and to still keep paying the monthly amount to Moorcroft.
The letter also says
‘we will close our entry on your credit report and PRA Group will create a new entry and start sending updates to credit reference agencies’ .
can they do this or is this just threat.? The debt is from 2004 so many years old and has just been passed from debt agency to debt agency. and this is the first time there has been a threat about contacting credit agencies. My credit rating is excellent at the moment and I am just getting myself sorted after many years. And why would they be selling it to PRA now? I would be grateful if you could advise
Kind regards
Norma
Sara (Debt Camel) says
The statement they make is technically accurate but misleading. Yes PRA will report the to debt to the credit reference agencies but they have to use the same default date as Barclaycard did, as that is more than 6 years ago, the debt will immediately be deleted and not appear on your credit reports.
There is no reason why you should carry on paying this debt. Obviously cancel your payment to Moorcroft/Balrclycard. I suggest you tell PRA that Barclaycard were unable to produce the CCA for the debt, it is therefore unenforceable in court and you will not be making any more payments.
Norma says
Thank you for replying to this so promptly Sara, it will stop me worry about the letter all over the weekend
Can I ask when debts are sold on to other companies throughout the life cycle of a debt do they automatically report the the credit reference agency, I suppose I am asking is this the norm?
Kind regards
Norma
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Yes. Except the purchaser doesn’t normally bother for debts defaulted over 6 years ago as they will drop off.
Diane says
Hi Sara
With regards to my post and your response on the 28/6/24 re Cabot continuing to contact me re and unenforceable debt. I did as you advised regarding writing them a letter, content as you suggested. Thy still continue to contact me via email threatening a debt collector visit to my home. Please can you advise, si there anything more I can do bout this situation to stop these emails and where do I stand if in fact a debt collector calls at my home.
Kind regards
Diane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggested at that point that you should make a complaint to Cabot. Did you do this? If you did, did Cabot ever reply?
Val Thomas says
My husband has recently received correspondence from Lowell requesting payment from 2 debts owed to HSBC for a joint bank overdraft of £4781.09 and a sole bank overdraft of £1556.96.
Apparently CCJs Judgement was made in March 2014 and they have given us the claim numbers. In 2007 we emigrated to Cyprus and returned in 2020. We had a a PO Box Number in Cyprus. HSBC would not accept this so we used our friend’s address and she forwarded any post received.
We received letters from HSBC about the balances outstanding which were nowhere near what Lowell are stating. We were in discussion with the bank regarding the monthly charges they were processing and continued to pay monies into our account.
No further correspondence was received until about 2 years later (c2012) when we received a letter from Moorcroft , trying to recover the funds. We advised we were in discussion with HSBC and waiting for further confirmation. £3000 was paid into our account as full and final payment No other correspondence was received from HSBC or Moorcroft so we assumed it was all finalised. Then Lowell had bought the debt of Hoist Finance(?). No correspondence has ever been received from Hoist , no paperwork has ever been received from the Courts about the CCJs. Lowell cannot supply us with any details on who actioned the alleged CCJs and just keep saying “due to the accounts having a CCJ , this means that a judge has found you liable for the accounts and the time for you to dispute the debts has passed”.
What action can Lowell legally take?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
We received letters from HSBC about the balances outstanding which were nowhere near what Lowell are stating.
what date were these letters? how much less was the balance?
so you had post forwarded regularly from your friend when you were abroad?
Val Thomas says
From my recollection the total was around £3000 in 2011. Post was sent on a monthly basis from our friend’s address to our PO Box number or we collected it if we were back on a visit to the UK
Also in 2021 we received a cheque from HSBC for £2084.60 which was a refund of the charges of £1293.76 plus interest £790.84
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So when HSBC sent you that refund, was there anything in their letter to suggest that they had sold the debt to Hoist or any other debt collector? Or did it sound as though there was no remaining debt?
Val Thomas says
we never heard from HSBC again about any debt owing , which is why we were so surprised when Lowell starting writing to us , and at no time has Hoist ever sent any correspondence to us. I asked who instigated the CCJs back in 2014 but Lowell’s will not/cannot advise. I don’t actually believe there had been CCjs as why would we have not received paperwork from the court about it and then further paperwork that judgement had been agreed?
The letter from HSBC states they had reviewed the charges , fees and interest applied to accounts in Collections and/or recoveries and as a result identified that some of the charges that were applied should be refunded. This was in 2022 . If there were still a debt surely they would have offset this against any amount owing?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
how much do Lowell say is now owed?
Val Thomas says
They said the total figure is £6338.05 , but we only had a joint account so cannot see what £1556.96 allegedly for a sole overdraft account is actually for
Sara (Debt Camel) says
sorry, but when you wrote “£3000 was paid into our account” as a full and final settlement, that was by HSBC in roughly which year?
Val Thomas says
Is was around 2014, my husband’s mother paid the money in on our behalf along with a letter with a breakdown of all the charges that had been debited and an offer of acceptance of the payment as full and final settlement. From what we can remember we never received any further correspondence from HSBC until 2022 when they sent us a cheque as detailed previously. We did not cash the cheque and still have it on file, as proof, as we had already deducted what we had calculated to be unjust charges in our full and final settlement.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
So you have two reasons to challlenge this.
The first is that you were never informed by HSBC that the debt had been sold to Hoist (or any other third party). When you emigrated in 2007, you set up arrangements for correspondence (as HSBC would not accept a PO Box) which worked. You were in discussion with the bank regarding the monthly charges they were adding as you were disputing them. In 2012 your mother-in-law paid £3000 into the account in final settlement and you never hear anything more suggesting that you owed a balance. You never received any correspondence from Hoist or from their solicitors or court papers about a CCJ. And Hoist never made any attempt to enforce the alleged CCJ.
Ask Lowell to send you copies of the correspondence Hoist would have had send you and evidence about the CCJ as you are unaware there ever was one.
The second reason is that if there had been a CCJ in 2014, this is more than 6 years ago. Lowell would have to go back to court to get permission to enforce such an old CCJ and this is very rarely given. Talk to National Debtline on 0808 808 4000 about this.
Val Thomas says
Thank you for your help Sara I will contact Lowell as suggested and hopefully that will be the end of it
Diane says
Dear Sara,
re your response to e on 18/11/24. I did complain to Cabot and they responded in August with the following
‘We are aware account is not enforceable this is neither the same as nor admission that debt does not exist.and does not mean you are not responsible/expected to pay. English law states enforcement is obtaining judgement at court. We have received payment totalling £500 which demonstrates acknowledgment of your liabilities. Your account has been referred back to the customer operations team’. They have continued to send emails and letters about sending an agent to the house. Can you advise
Kind regards Diane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
your complaint – did that say that you were complaining that their letters and emails fail to state that the debt is unenforceable? And that the response from Cabot did not address that point?
Diane says
I complained that the debt was unenforceable and they continued to send me email and letters by post threatening me an visit form an agent and reminded them that the debt was unenforceable. They have responded saying they accept that they did not mention that the debt was unenforceable in their emails and will ensure they mention this in future emails. It has been documented in their letters which I receive in the post, but are obviously going to continue to contact me re the debt. So I am asking were I stand with this, especially in relation to the threat of an gent visiting my home
Diane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
how many letters and emails have you had since their reply to you in August?
and all the emails mention that the debt is unenforceable?
Diane says
Hi Sara
I have received four letters and nine emails
No, none of the emails mention the debt in unenforceable. They started off asking me to set up a plan, then progressed to threats of an agent visit, same as the letters that I have ben receiving.
Diane
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok time for another complaint – this time to ask for compensation!
Email them with the subject titled “COMPLAINT about emails about unenforceable debt”
“I complained in [July] that you were continuing to send me emails asking me to make payments to currently unenforceable debts without mentioning that the debts are unenforceable, which is a breach of CONC 13. You replied in August saying that you would ensure that you mention this in future emails.
But since August I have received 9 emails which still do not mention this.
I have also rved 4 letters since August. I understand that the debt still legally exists, but I have made it clear that I will not be setting up a payment arrangement and I consider that 13 communications in 3 months amounts to bdgering, especially as you are now threatening to send an agent to my house. This does not amount to a good customer journey and is in breach of the consumer duty.
To put this right, I would like you to:
1) pay me £100 compensation for carrying on sending these emails that do not mention unenforceablity. This should be paid directly to me, not credited to an unenforceable debt
2) stop sending me any emails at all asking me to pay these debts, or texts or phone calls, so that all communications (except in response to this complaint) are by letter
3) send me no more than 1 letter per quarter
4) cease to threaten an agents visit.
I will be sending this to the Financial Ombudsman if you do not agree. I will also be increasing the compensation I am asking for by £25 for each further email you send that does not mention that the debt is unenforceable”
Diane says
Thank you for your advice on this matter Sarah. I will write letter straight away and will keep you updated on the outcome
Diane