Have you had a catalogue, credit card or store card where your credit limit was too high? So high that the monthly repayments were hard to manage and you got into more debt?
Many people were originally given an OK limit, but the lender kept increasing them.
You may have a good complaint that the lender was irresponsible in allowing you to borrow so much that the debt was unaffordable.
This article explains how to complain and ask for a refund of the interest you paid
Contents
What is “affordability”?
The following is my summary of the regulator’s rules:
- a lender must check if credit is affordable when you apply for it. A mortgage lender will ask for bank statements, but a catalogue offering a £200 credit limit doesn’t have to go into so much detail;
- a lender should also make new checks when deciding to increase a credit limit;
- credit isn’t affordable if paying it leaves you short of money for your bills,everyday expenses, and your other debts;
- if you have to borrow more most months, this would not be affordable. This could be borrowing on the same account – making a credit card repayment but then using the credit card to pay for food so the balance never drops is “borrowing more”;
- you have to be able to repay the balance within a reasonable period of time. Paying the minimum amount is OK for a short while, but not for a prolonged period.
How to complain
Good reasons to complain
If the lender could see any of these on your credit record, they should probably have declined your original application:
- recent credit record problems: defaults, missed payments, or arrangements to pay, mortgage arrears, payday loans;
- you already had a different credit card with the same lender where you were only making minimum payments and were using it for essentials like food and petrol. If you were given two credit or catalogue accounts by the same lender, often the second one should never have been given.
- other credit cards where you were near your limit and persistent overdraft usage. Here is an Ombudsman decision saying Zopa should not have given quite a low initial limit in this situation;
- a level of borrowing that looks too high in relation to your income.
Your credit limit should not later have been increased unless you could afford it. In addition to the points above, the following should have also warned the lender you were in difficulty already:
- making minimum payments for a long while;
- using a lot of your limit for a long period;
- a lot of gambling showing on the account statement;
- recent missed payments or an arrangement to pay on this account;
- your overall level of debt on your credit record has gone up a lot.
You don’t need all the details to complain
When your lender increased your credit limit, you don’t need the exact date. If all you can say is “you increased my credit limit several times” that is fine. You don’t need to ask for copies of all your statements – you would get a ton of paper!
But getting your credit record can help. You can’t go back and see exactly what your credit score was in say 2018, but take a copy of your current credit record as soon as you complain (get your free TransUnion statutory credit report). That will show what the pre-2018 problems were that the lender should have spotted.
Template to complain & the email address to use
The best way to complain is by email. It’s free, instant and you have a record of what you sent and when. Here is a list of credit card and catalogue email addresses to use.
In the suggestions below, I’ve invented some examples for the bits in italics in brackets. Change/delete these to tell your story.
I want to complain about irresponsible lending by you for my Barclaycard account number 987654/444. My date of birth is dd/mm/yy. The email address I used for this account was myaddress@whatever.com.
Then say they should never have given you the account:
You should never have allowed me to open an account with such a large credit limit. When I applied in 2015, you should have checked my credit record and you would have seen I had recent missed payments to a credit card and a default only two months before on a loan.
Or say that they should not have increased your credit limit:
You should never have increased my credit limit in 2015. At that time I had only made minimum payments on this credit card for a long while and/or I was using a very high level of my credit limit.
If you had properly checked my credit record before increasing my limit, you would have seen that in the two years since my account with you was opened, I had got additional late payment markers and defaults and/or taken out a lot of other credit. This should have warned you I was struggling with my finances and it was not responsible to lend me more. By increasing my credit limit you made my financial position worse. Instead you should have offered me forbearance by freezing the interest on the card.
I do not know the exact months of these credit limit increases. In your reply to this complaint, please tell me the dates and amounts.
If the lender should already have known you had problems with your account, mention these
You should also have realised that I was having difficulty because:
of the late payment charges you added to my account
of the gambling transactions showing on my card statement
I had missed two payments to you the year before in 2017
I had already asked you on the phone if it was possible to stop adding interest for a while.
End with asking for a refund:
I would like you to refund me all the interest I paid and any late payment charges from the point the account was opened
OR
I would like you to refund me all the interest I paid and any late payment charges after you increased my credit limit in 2018.
I would also like any late payment and default markers to be removed from credit records after this point.
I understand that if I take this complaint to the Financial Ombudsman, 8% simple interest is usually added to a cash refund.
Points to think about
Timing
These complaints can be made if your account is still open, or if it is closed and settled, or if it is with a debt collector (NB the complaint goes to the original lender, not the debt collector.)
You can complain if you already have a CCJ for the debt. Add a sentence to the template saying you want the CCJ removed as part of the settlement of your complaint.
If you have had an IVA or bankruptcy after these problems, or if you are still in a DRO, then ask in the comments below, as this can be complicated.
Old accounts
The Financial Ombudsman (FOS) can only go back to April 2007, when the law changed to allow these complaints.
Many lenders will reject complaints about something that was more than 6 years ago and say the ombudsman won’t look at them. But FOS will often look at old problems if you have only found out in the last three years that you can make the complaint.
If your account was opened in 2015 but the lender increased your limit in 2018 and 2019, then the two limit increases are within the last 6 years and can definitely be looked at.
However, complaints about things that happened more than 6 years ago may be hard for you to produce much evidence for. But if you feel you have a strong older case and you have some evidence, then take it to the Ombudsman and let them decide!
An alternative approach for old accounts
If your account was opened a long while ago and you defaulted and still owe a balance, perhaps in a DMP, think about asking the debt collector to produce the Consumer Credit Act agreement for the account.
If the current creditor can’t produce a proper copy of the agreement, the debt cannot be enforced in court and you can simply stop paying anything to it. This applies to all credit cards, store cards and catalogues.
It may be that the balance on the account is larger than any refund you might get. In which case if the CCA agreement cannot be produced, you would be better off.
Is a refund what you really need?
This depends how large your current financial problems are.
Complaining about newish debt will often only get the interest removed – you still have to repay what you borrowed. Don’t spend months arguing with lenders and going to the ombudsman if you will still be in a mess even if you win.
So phone National Debtline on 0808 808 4000, tell them you are thinking about affordability complaints but you would like to know what your other debt options are.
Poor reasons to complain
You can’t complain just because the interest rate was high or because you have paid them a fortune over the years.
A poor credit score on its own isn’t a reason why you shouldn’t have been given an account. But if your credit score was poor because you were having a lot of problems with your existing debt, the account should have been refused.
You won’t win an affordability complaint if something unexpected went wrong later in your life. If you had been managing a credit card fine for years but then you lost your job or separated from your partner and you defaulted, this isn’t the lender’s fault.
Don’t be put off by a rejection or a poor offer
Lenders often reject good cases
If a lender rejects your complaint or offers a low “goodwill” gesture, don’t be fobbed off – they want you to give up.
In particular, if the lender says you had made all the payments to them on time so they had no reason to think you had problems, you can ignore this. Or if the lender dismisses your complaint as the account was opened over 6 years ago.
When you have a Final Response from the lender – or after 8 weeks if you haven’t had a Final Response – send your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS). Don’t delay doing this!
Is a “partial uphold” good enough?
If the lender says they should not have increased your credit limit in June 2018 when your limit was increased and they will give you a refund of interest for balances over the previous limit, that may sound good. It is sometimes called a partial uphold or a partial refund or proportionate interest.
But often the amount of money refunded in this situation is a lot less than you might expect. So tell the lender you want to consider their offer but need to know how large the refund will be.
Often you were already in a difficult financial situation at that point, with cards close to maxed out, being used for everyday essentials and only paying the minimums. At that point the lender should have stepped in and offered to help you by freezing all interest. That is why a partial refund is often not good enough, you should have all the interest refunded from that point.
How to send a case to FOS
Send FOS a complaint using their online form. You can use bits of what you put in your complaint to the lender. If the lender has rejected your complaint or given a poor offer, say why you think this wrong.
The FOS form at the end asks you to add supporting documents. Don’t worry if you don’t have A copy of your credit or finance agreement – lots of people don’t and the lender will supply a copy to FOS if FOS asks for it. Don’t delay sending a complaint to FOS while you try to get this from the lender.
If your credit record shows that you had other debt problems, send FOS a copy of it. If you have kept some, send the oldest one you have, otherwise send the current one. Also get your bank statements if they will support your complaint and send those to FOS too.
FOS is a friendly service but not fast. Just use normal English, not legal terms. Using a claims company or a solicitor doesn’t help or speed this up.
Ask questions below!
There are hundreds of comments from readers who are using this template. It’s a good place to see how these complaints often go and to ask any questions.
FAQs about Affordability claims
Can you get an overdraft refund?
Could a Debt Relief order help you?
Mike_p says
Has anyone had and luck complaint to PayPal credit? They replied to my complaint in a few hours saying the credit reference agency gives them a yes or no decision and they I should refer to the credit reference agency. That must be a fob off as it doesn’t sound right at all.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
indeed – send the case to the Ombudsman and let them get to the bottom of it.
Mike_p says
I’ve just sent it to the FOS. Paypal gave me 5 credit limit increases taking me from £400 to £2650 een though I was only making the minimum payments and I had over 30 payday loans appearing on my credit record over the same period.
Dominic West says
Good evening.
Does anyone have the email address for the Capital One UK Executive Team/office or even the CEO Lucy-Marie Hague?
I’ve wrote and emailed in relation to a refund for someone who passed away, unfortunately the executor passed away, and whilst I’m the new executor everything is still in the name of the original. I keep getting the customer service/complaints team for each reply with exactly the same (accept for senders name & date) written reply.
I did manage to speak to someone who told me the refund can not be processed until the Executive team give the go ahead
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Try complaintsresolutionuk@capitalone.com
Dominic West says
Hi
Thanks but I’ve tried this and you get an acknowledgement & replies from the CS team.
Same person is the Complaints & CS Manager.
Need contacts for the executive team if possible
Scott says
Hi Dominic,
rob.harding@capitalone.com
He’s on the executive team and is the Chief Operations and Technology Officer.
Hope you get things sorted.
Scott
Amy L says
I’ve recently had a successful claim with very and tried to do the same with littlewoods. Littlewoods accepted my claim from when my account went from £1700 in July 2007 to £2000 in October 2007. They have calculated the redress for this as £44. I’m quite confused by it as I had further credit raises after this date until the account was closed in 2012 and the redress is so little compared to similar with very who gave a redress of £3000. Littlewoods claim that they are not an interest account (although I’m sure I paid interest) and because I had a ppi refund that would have taken some of the redress?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
so did they also accept the later credit limits increases were unaffordable?
Amy l says
I’m not sure they didn’t say only that they accepted from £1700 to when it to £2000. My situation did not improve after that so not sure why they were not spoken about. Also couldn’t understand the ppi bit and that littlewoods are not an interest catalogue?
The account also eventually went into arrears in May 2010 after they had eventually raised my credit limit over 10 times
Sara (Debt Camel) says
if you had a PPI refund, that would have repaid some of the interest you were charged. You can’t then get repaid that amouint again.
I suggest you go back to Littlewoods and say you want a statement of account between 2007 and 2012 so you can see each month how much interest was added and what you paid. Say you do not think their calculation can be right, you would like them to explain how it was calculated or you will be sending the case to the ombudsman.
Mr and Mrs C says
I have just managed to get a telephone number for the The Financial Services Complaints Team 0345 026 3899 for JD Williams. Good luck to anyone else waiting for their calculations and reimbursements.
First logged complaint 06/06/2018
FOS decision 08/02/2021
Still waiting for reimbursement.
Xubo says
Has anyone made a complaint against Vanquis credit card, this was my first ever credit card, at first I was able to pay the balance off then I spent more and my limit increases, I’m now in a DMP plan, had numerous payday loans to help pay minimum balance.
Im just curious what they are like to deal with
Lynne says
I did but got a negative response. In fact I took it out in 2010 and defaulted in 2015 so it should be off my credit file in July.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Vanquis are the same as most credit cards at the moment , they reject many good complaints. Send your case to the Ombudsman if this happens to you.
Lynne says
My credit limit was only ever £250 but due to interest and costs etc I ended up owing £670 so that’s what’ is on my credit file at the moment.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
it’s going to be pretty hard to win a complaint when the credit limit is that low.
Lynne says
I know that’s why I didn’t persue it. I’m just looking forward to it coming off my credit report.
Andrew says
Hello does anyone have a complaint email address for Grattan PLC and Freemans PLC
Thank you
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Sorry I didn’t see your question. Try customer.services@grattan.co.uk and customer.services@freemans.com
loulouports says
Hi i put in an irresponsible lending complaint with Very Catalogue 5 weeks ago, iv’e not received a final response letter yet but iv’e just logged into my account and its saying the following: Available to spend£10,111.61 Credit limit£4,600.00 Balance-£5,511.61. Until today my credit limit was £4,600 and i owed just over £500, so does this suggest i’m being refunded £5.511.61? Thanks.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Yes i think it does! Fingers crossed…
Katie says
Anyone have an email address for Very?
Lee says
No email address for very. Wrote my letter and phoned Very customer services to obtain the email to send my Complaint letter to. Told me compliants have to be filled in over phone. I got my Complaint letter and just highlighted my key points to lady on phone who read it back to me and gave me a reference number. I also asked at the time for my subject of access request and form also completed over phone. Not happy with this process but she covered everything in the letter that was good to go so we will see what happens. Had my very account since July 2015 and lots limits as high as £4500 at one point. Is £500 balance now but gambling win it allowed me to bring it down a year ago. But lots of debt at the time and still around me from other providers. Will keep you posted of my progress.
Lynne says
I complained to nationwide about the removal of my overdraft. Aftet 6 weeks they say they’re still investigating but they say they understand my complaint to be that I request a refund of any fees and reinstatement of my overdraft.
They go on to say ‘if you have any thoughts on what you’d like as a resolution of your complaint, please don’t hesitate to let me know’. Is there an opportunity there to ask for compensation do you think ?
A bit of background – for many years I had an overdraft. Suddenly they decided to revoke it and an agreement was made to reduce it by £20 per month. I told them that wasn’t affordable. They said the minimum they could reduce it by was £10 per month but based on my income and outgoings they said I could afford £20!
When the o/d got down to £200 they took it all off me in one go. This was the same month that I’d lost my job and had to take a lesser paid one, meaning not only was my income reduced by £500 a month but the ‘safety net’ of the £200 o/d was also not there.
I realise this is a long shot but I do think it was handled badly.
Vicki says
Has anyone had experience with a Studio account?
Also, I paid ALOT in unplanned overdraft fees with my Lloyd’s account is this something that could be pursued? I.e they should not have allowed the payment to go through as it put my in more trouble having to repay it and the fees.
Katie says
Hi.
I put in a complaint and they turned it down saying I have passed the “time limit” as I opened the account t in 2008. I responded that the account was still with them in 201, but had no response, so I have taken it to FOS.
Vicki says
Thanks, I need to check dates but I defiantly know they increased my account and that’s when things didn’t go well.
What details did you use to contact them?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
you can take complaint to the Ombudsman about thinga which happened after April 2007.
If you are complaining about something that happened more than 6 years ago, the Ombudsman will check if you should have complained earlier. You need to explain that although you new the repayments were too high to be manageable, you did not realise the lender should have checked they were affordable for you so at that time you had no idea that you had any reason to complain Say when and how you found out about what an affordabilioty complaint was – eg a freind told you they had had a refund, you saw an advert on Facebook for loan refunds, you were conected by the administrators of a payday lener… there are no wrong answers, here, just say what happened to you and when.
Steve says
Hi Sarah
Do you have an email contact for Aqua? As I could only find a telephone number or write to them the only high card I had Vanquis was easy to complain too.
I had great success with your sight on my payday loans got over £6000 back so totally in the black again
Mike_p says
I couldn’t find one so I wrote to them. I posted the letter two days ago and they have just sent me a confirmation by text saying they will write to me soon. I hate the way companies do this though, for other queries their app has a messaging function.
Gary says
Hi
Does anyone know the email address of Royal Bank of Scotland to make an affordability complaint please?
Many thanks.
Katie says
customer.relations@rbs.co.uk
Lee C says
Hi I am currently looking at putting in complaints to Very regarding my previous high credit limits that at the time were £4200 at one point (around 2016 / 2017). My account is now at £500 account limit as I did decrease it over the last 4 /5 years but was heavily in debt at time and had gambling transactions they allowed me to increase my limit multiple times which I feel was unaffordable and irresponsible.
Do I ask Very like my previous payday loan compliants lodged to provide me dates and amounts of the account increases as a starting point before I put my compliant letter into very?
Just wondered if anyone who has complianed to Very recently can give me some pointers how to approach this one.
I have Advant
Vanquis
118 Loans
And Nationwide overdraft to do after this.
Thanks Lee
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Do I ask Very like my previous payday loan compliants lodged to provide me dates and amounts of the account increases as a starting point before I put my compliant letter into very?
No! Use the template in the article above, that starts your complaint and asks them to send you the dates and amounts at the same time. You know enough about what happened to be able to complain now, there is no need to delay a month to get the numbers. Very know the exact numbers, they don’t need you to tell them.
I have Avant, Vanquis, 118 Loans And Nationwide overdraft to do after this.
After this, this weekend? Fine!
But don’t delay with getting complaints in, you don’t want to try to finish one before starting the next.
For Avant and 118, use the “large loans” template on this page https://debtcamel.co.uk/refunds-large-high-cost-loans/
Lee says
Thanks Sara.
Lynne says
Let me know how you get on with nationwide overdraft please Lee as that’s the complaint I have outstanding at the moment.
Franky says
My complaint is with ombudsman over my halifax account. Am on benefits but they let me increase my overdraft to 1000 with no checks. Plus my credit score is average but I have had to pay the higher rate of nearly 50% interest on my overdraft. I think this is also unfair.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
sorry for the delay in replying.
How large was the overdraft before? if it was 800, they didn’t increase it a lot. If it was 400 then they more than doubled it…
Also how much of your time did you spending your overdraft before the increase? Was it just the odd day each month? Or were you in the overdraft for most of the month? If it was most of the month, how long had that been going on for?
These complaints can take a while to go through, FOS is often not fast. I suggest you should look at getting a different “basic” bank account with no overdraft facility, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/bank-accounts-after-bankruptcy/. Move all your income and STOs and DDs over to there and essentially abandon the Halifax account, just paying £5 a month to it (or whatever you can afford). Ask Halifax to freeze the interest on the account so you can pay this off more quickly. This is in addition to your complaint, you can do both.
Lou says
Hi all, I have taken my jd williams complaint to the ombudsmun…. however there was a delay I passed it on to them in November and a investigator had only just picked up 5 weeks ago, at this point they were still waiting for jd williams to get back to them in the mean time I sent all of the information they had requested from me. Also insisting that I had all of my file from them on paper, today I decided to chase up my investigator as I have heard nothing 5 weeks on no update. I received this….. Thank you for your email. I’ve been looking at the issues around your complaint a little closer and from what I’ve seen another team will need to look into it.
I’m going to pass the case over to them today and once it has been allocated someone will be in touch.
Has this happened to anyone else, I thought my complaint was already with a case handler, I’m really confused any advice would be great. And just to confirm jdwilliams deny any wrong doing that increases were done from there own data and not from credit checks etc….
Sara (Debt Camel) says
How long ago were the increases?
Lou says
Years ago Sara, I had the account back in 2015 then from there they whacked it up pretty much every month, no credit checks I’ve had all my paper work from them.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I asked because complaints that happened about something more than 6 years ago often have to go through a separate check first – that check usually isn’t a problem, but it can delay things. But if your credit increases were after 2015, this isn’t relevant.
Lou says
I had a reply back from the original case handler saying it was decided that another team would be best suited to handle my complaint… which I find odd why would he pick it up in the first place he asked me for all the information which I sent over and started the ball rolling now I have to wait longer again until someone picks it up again 😐
Chris says
I’m sorry to say that it will be a long wait. My complaint went in in May 2019. Finally after a very long time, I got the Adjudicator to decide mostly in my favour and, after a further long time, JDW accepted the decision. I am three days away from the 4 weeks they have been given to sort this out but I am not expecting them to meet the deadline.
Mr and Mrs C says
HI Chris, I am still waiting since the decision was made in my favour 4 months ago in February. JDW keep saying they are waiting for help from FOS to calculate, FOS keep telling me that JDW are doing it – I am no further forward than in Feb. I dont know who to go to next as no one seems to be pushing JDW for them to pay me.
Matt says
Thought I’d provide hope for people battling against unaffordable overdrafts. After a long drawn out affair I have had a final decision issued in my favour partially upholding a complaint against Halifax. I complained that in a short space of time between November 15 and March 16 mainly due to a gambling problem I was granted regular limit increases from 0-£5000.
Initially Halifax rejected and sent to the FOS. The investigator sided with Halifax but I requested the Ombudsman look at it and made the points that since the overdraft increases
I relied on the overdraft facility to meet all my expenditure. That resulted in overdraft charges totalling at least £180 per month. This wasn’t an isolated occurrence and
It meant the only way I was able to meet my repayments was by relying on the overdraft facility. I said this is not a sustainable way to repay debt and disagreed with his findings.
A year later and I have had a final decision. Saying that lending from 3k and above should not have been approved so they must refund the charges and interest on that amount. Better than nothing and will reduce my balance that has since been sold to a debt collector.
Stick at it
Ali says
Good result.
In terms of timescale could you advise?
I’m currently waiting for my natwest overdraft case to be picked up by an adjudicator since natwest didn’t uphold last October.
They gave me an overdraft of £1250, no increases but I was in it fully from the first few days for over a year with lots of charges and then eventually paid it back last year after compo from other claims. I had around 10k of debt at the time, payday loans and catalogues so I don’t think they correctly checked my affordability.
Katie says
Email for SAR at Very group:
SAR@theverygroup.com
NICO says
Hi All – £2756 cheque through this morning from my Littlewoods complaint, cheque is from Very. Keep going everyone as I have got to this point without needing to go to FoS and Very were helpful and responsive.
They are also removing adverse notes on my credit file.
Sara – thanks for all the help you gave me and others on this site.
Tom Halbert says
hi Guys,
just heard back for investigator on my claim against Newday. She has sided with Newday on most of the charges against me, with an outstanding debt of around £4000 to pay. I obvioulsy don’t agree with her findingd and have replied asking for an ombudsman to review my case.
Just wondering how much success anyone has had at this stage of passing the complaint from the investigator to the ombudsman?
Thanks for all replies in advance, Tom
Sara (Debt Camel) says
These cases are all very individual. I always say follow your instinct – if you know your limit was raised to too high a level, then take the case to the Ombudsman.
NICO says
Hello – I have a few that are with the final FoS decision, I have heard very little back though when things get to this stage.
FoS must have a huge backlog to get through, so I think its going to be 6 months plus.
I have also not seen anything overturned by FoS at this stage.
Ali says
I’ve not heard much success with newday.
For me personally, newday refused, adjudicator upheld but ombudsman didn’t uphold which was disappointing!
Lou says
I’ve ask jd williams for a refund due to irresponsible lending. They’ve replied and asked me to send
Bank statements (please delete all personal information)
Credit report
Details of any creditors you may have had at the time your account was opened/credit limit increased
Any other evidence that you feel may support your complaint.
I don’t have any of this information anymore
Should they not be able to check all this if they did the original credit checks that they state they do ?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
how long ago were the limit increases you are complaining about?
Ljc says
I have just received this too from jdwilliams & I don’t have anything .
I haven’t used the account since about 2013 I have £1200 debt on it and I used it from about 2000
What do you think I should do now Sara ?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Did they increase your credit limit? If so, do you know what date?
If you don’t know, I suggest you reply that you may be able to supply more information wehn they give you details of when they increased your credit limit.
Are you still paying this debt to them, do you have a payment arrangement, has it been sold to a debt collector?
Ljc says
They did increase my limit but I don’t know when that was . The debt was sold to a debt collector and I pay then £1 a month .
I wrote back to jdw and said I don’t have exact dates so I have asked them to send me a SAR so I then can send them any paperwork around those times (I have bank statements for a few years ) should I send another email asking them when did the increase my credit limit/s
Sara (Debt Camel) says
yes.
is this debt still showing on your credit record?
Do you have other old debts you are making a token payment to?
Ljc says
Hi Sara it’s not showing on my clear score credit record . I have about 8 that I pay £1 a month too and have done for last 7 or so years. I have just written to 6 of them with irresponsible lending complaint; jd williams is one of these
Sara (Debt Camel) says
ok, I suggest you also read https://debtcamel.co.uk/ask-cca-agreement-for-debt/ which takes a different approach which MAY work better with older accounts. There the request for the CCA agreement goes to the current creditor, NOT the original lender.
Ljc says
Hi Sara
I have looked at that link but I don’t really understand why I would go down that route ? Is it that if I win the cases of irresponsible lending and have balences still left would I then go to the debt collection agency and ask for the cca and if they can’t produce it , then stop paying the £1 per month ?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Exactly. It depends how big the balance is compared to the refund you might get.
Ljc says
Great thanks for the advice Sara , I’ll do that once I have results from the irresponsible lending complaints
Pippa says
Hi; I had the same from JD Williams. It seems it is standard approach by them. I supplied credit report, payday loan statements, bank statements and they still rejected. I had nine defaults yet they still increased my limit six times across all my accounts. They said my credit score was positive yet it was only 178. I made a claim against New Day and they upheld my complaint so god only knows what JD are playing at.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
They know many people will just give up if they get a rejection and not take their case to the Ombudsman.
Lynn says
Hi Sara,
I hope you will be able to advise me on the right direction with this one.
I put a complaint in against new day September 2020 I have just been assigned an investigator from the fos.
They have asked me for further information regarding letters about increases, I started with a limit of £300 and ended up with a limit of £5000 within a 2 year period. I have replied and advised I remember receiving one letter for the increase from £300 to £1200 but that was it. He has them come back to me and advised that I requested the second increase from £1200 to £1800 I have advised them that I had increased the card as after the first increase my debt had started to spiral and I was trying to cover payments and also that I had a marbles credit card at the same time that they were also increasing the limit on. Do you have any other advise ? I have advised them my circumstances had changed e.g I had another child and started paying childcare during the increases.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
have you also complained about the Marbles card?
Lynn says
No I haven’t
Pippa says
Hi,
I submitted a complaint to JD Williams and they have just responded rejecting my claim. Is this normal or do most complaints get accepted?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
It’s normal for good cases to be rejected :(
If you know the repayments caused you problems, send the case to the Ombudsman.
Pippa says
Thank you Sara, I put so much into my complaint and to be rejected at the last second is heartbreaking. I had four accounts, one defaulted, they new I had to take payday loans to pay their bills and even after they sold my accounts to a third party they still allowed me to open another one (which I did purely to show how irresponsible they are). Their main argument is that it was my choice to pay using the credit facility. They also say that my credit score was positive when in fact is was very poor. Do I take this directly to the ombudsman now? Thank you.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Yes. No point in trying to get them to change their minds. Enclose the evidence about your credit score.
Lynne says
Really not happy Nationside have not upheld my complaint over the overdraft.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Most overdraft complaints have to go to the Ombudsman.
Lynne says
That’s what I’ve done. Will it affect me even though I still bank with them?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I don’t know what they will do.
Michelle says
Hi , could you tell me how credit card refunds work ? Vanquish didn’t uphold my complaint , on your advice I sent another email with argues against their reasons for not upholding , the same day I received another email saying they are re investigating my complaint ,
Account opened feb 2013 £500 limit minimum payment £22
1st increase jan 2014 to £1000 £46 minimum payment
2nd increase April 2014 to £1500 min payment £71
3rd increased august 2014 to £2000 min payment £92
4th increase June 2015 to £2500 min payment £113
5th increase feb 2016 to £3000 min payment £140
6th increase November 2016 £3500 min payment £190
Always only paid min payment , been paying £190 ish for about 4.5 years and still owe £3460
If I win and it’s a big if how will it work ? Loans complaints are a lot easier to understand lol
Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Looks like a good case to me. You should ask for a refund of all the interest you paid after the point the limit became unaffordable.
michelle says
How do I work that out to make sure if I do get a offer they aren’t trying to diddle me ?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Suppose they say that the Aug 14 decision to increase your credit limit to 2000 from 1500 was wrong.
if they say they are refunding the interest from Aug 14 say, add up all the interest you have paid – you need all your statements to do that I am afraid.
If they offer what sounds like a low amount and say they are only refunding the interest charged on the amount your account was over 1500, then say this is wrong and sent it to the Ombudsman.
Andi says
And the ROP (Repayment Option Plan + interest) most cards pre 2018 had this applied.
They will try and fob you off saying it’s PPI and those claims have now passed, BUT unless it clearly says Payment Protection Insurance then it’s not ;)
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Quite right – ROP was not PPI.
NICO says
Hi Sara – good news today that Capital 1 have agreed with my FoS upheld complaint –
The main thing to emphasise is that Capital One will be reworking your account on the basis that it can only add interest and charges on the balance up to your initial credit limit of £1,100, and any interest and charges incurred after the limit increase must be removed.
Any remaining balance after the account has been reworked in this way, will be reduced by your repayments in the six years prior to when you first brought the complaint to this service in March 2021, up until the present time. If this adjusted balance leaves any funds remaining, these should be refunded to you along with 8% interest calculated from the date of overpayment to the date of settlement. Plus negative credit file marks removed.
I have accepted this. Do you have any experience of what C1 do now in terms of communicating a figure back with me and the timescales?
Regards
NICO
George says
Hi Nico,
Please can you share details of what situation you were in for Capital 1 to respond like this? And also when you send your complaint to the FOS? I have a complaint against Capital 1 that I sent to FOS in March 2021 but I have not had much back yet.
Thanks,
NICO says
Hi – interest and fees just got out of control after I had a credit increase, I complained a few times to them about persistent debt and worries. FoS found that this complaint was not taken seriously enough so I took it to FoS and below is the outcome.
“Hi – good news today that Capital 1 have agreed with my FoS upheld complaint –
The main thing to emphasise is that Capital One will be reworking your account on the basis that it can only add interest and charges on the balance up to your initial credit limit of £1,100, and any interest and charges incurred after the limit increase must be removed.
Any remaining balance after the account has been reworked in this way, will be reduced by your repayments in the six years prior to when you first brought the complaint to this service in March 2021, up until the present time. If this adjusted balance leaves any funds remaining, these should be refunded to you along with 8% interest calculated from the date of overpayment to the date of settlement. Plus negative credit file marks removed”
Rose says
Hi, Sara,
Please may you advise on JD Williams? Following the brilliant advice you’ve given on payday lending that I have used, I put in a complaint with them: I opened a credit account in 2012 (despite having evidence of defaults in 2011, from short-term lending) and it was with them until it was sold to Lowells in 2017. During this time, they regularly increased my account, despite only making minimum payments, despite the fact that I was reliant on other short-term lending, and also had three defaults from payday lenders in 2013 also.
They have sent me their final response today and aren’t upholding my complaint at all. Essentially, they say:
1 I applied for an account, signed and agreed the paperwork, and knew what I was committing too
The evidence I have shown them of issues before 2015 doesn’t count, as it took place more than 6 years ago, and it’s more than three years ago that I “should have realised there was a problem” (I’m not quite sure what that means: I only realised last year that it was possible to complain about this sort of thing, when I found your website after trying to work out why Wonga had put money in my bank account) so it’s “outside the time limits set by DISP 2.8.2R(2). ” (I thought this related to when you realised you could complain, not when you should have made the complaint in knowledge of the process, but this might be wrong)
They are only considering the two limit increases made in 2015 and 2016 (I don’t have all the info – I’ve since made a DSAR, so I have no idea how accurate this is, but presumably, it is so) as a result, but because I had a good credit score (I don’t see how that could objectively have been, since at that time, there would have been at least six defaults on my credit record) and was “managing my credit” (I had numerous late payments, rollovers and deferrals of other loans at this time also) and also had high scoring on their internal system, AND they didn’t give me the full credit limit I was eligible for, this is OK. Apart from the questionable issue of my CRA records – and the fact that there was plenty of evidence of extensive use of payday loans, even if the deferrals and late payments weren’t on there – I was only ever making minimum or partial payments on my account: so I am not sure why they would think that was “good”
Sara (Debt Camel) says
FOS will usually look at decisions more than 6 years ago. As they aren’t offering you anything for the decisions within 6 years this is an easy decision for you – send it to FOS!
See the article above for how to do this. Put a couple of sentences into your FOS complaint which say that you only found out a lender should have checked credit was affordable in 2020 when you received an unexpected refund from the Wonga administrators, so you are complaining within 3 years of finding out JD Williams has done something wrong so you had cause to complain.
Rose says
Sara, as always, you are brilliant- thank you so much for you help on this!
Pippa says
Hi Rose,
I’ve have just had a very similar response from JD Williams as you have had. It almost sounds as if they have cut and pasted the same comments. My credit was also bad, with numerous defaults yet they said my internal and external score appeared positive! They asked me for details of my credit scores at that time but I refused to send that info as I said they should have already been aware had they done their checks. I sent screenshots of the payday loans I had but they didn’t comment about those.
I’m taking mine to FOS and am just getting everything ready to send. Please keep us informed how you get on.
Rose says
Hi, Pippa,
Thanks so much for responding – that’s really interesting to read, especially as your situation sounds really similar to mine: they probably have a form letter that they just change the dates on, from the sound of it (did they also say that as you kept using credit, it meant there wasn’t an issue?!) I am also just pulling things together for FOS – I imagine it’s going to be months before it’s allocated, but I still think it’s worthwhile: good luck with yours too – and let’s swap updates on here down the line!
Anita says
Hi Sara,
This is a calculations I have recived from JDWiliams.
Interest and Charges £903.72
b 8% interest £41.60
c 20% tax on interest -£8.32
d 8% minus tax £33.28
e Total (a+d) £937.00
Could you please give me your opinion one the 8% interest calculation. I have opened the account in 2011.
Your help is much appreciated.
The adjudicator said that D Williams should remove any interest and charges incurred during the
period from 29 September 2011 to 4 March 2014
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Do you think the
Interest and Charges £903.72
line is correct?
If these were the charges between 2011 to 2014, then I don’t understand how the 8% interest can be so low. It sounds as though there should be at least 6 years of 8% interest added – so about 48%…
Go back to JD Williams and ask how they calculated that.
Anita says
Thank you for your opinion. I realy do not know how to calculate interests and charges. 8% looks very low though. I will point this to the adjudicator.
You are brilliant Sara. You saved many lives..and mine.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
This was for two accounts? The “interest and charges” is the difference between the price you bought something at and the total amount you paid. Do you remember what a typical months payments was? Did you buy a lot of stuff on BNPL deals?
Anita says
It was one account. I do not remember What the typical payment was. I was bying quite a lot from them.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Then Can you also ask them for a copy of your statements over that period. A list of the purchases and the payments you made will be sufficient. The £900 may be right but it sounds low, less that £20 a month in interest over that period.
Anita says
I will do that. Thank you so much for your advice. I will keep you posted.
Kelly says
Hi Sara,
I raised a complaint with HSBC regarding the carelessness of providing me with a credit card and overdraft even though I could not afford it and kept increasing the balance. They have said that due to it being over six years ago then they cannot do anything. Is this right? Would it be a waste of time taking it to the ombudsman? It was around 10 years ago.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
how large were the original limits? did they increase these?
Kelly says
The original balance for my credit card was £300 which got increased to £500 and I cannot remember the original overdraft limit but it did get increased to a thousand pound. I was heavily gambling at the time. I ended up with a CCJ from them. I managed to clear all the debt with them in the end.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Those are small amounts so it would be a difficult claim to win if it happened three years ago. I doubt you have much chance as it is so old – for example you probably don’t have a copy of your credit record at that time.
Mr and Mrs C says
Can anyone help me regarding JD Williams – the FOS decided in my favour in Feb, I am still waiting for a payment 5 months later. JDW says they are waiting for FOS to check calculations, FOS say that they are waiting for JDW to come back with calculations. I believe I am owed approx 2k inc interest. I am at my wits end now with who to contact so sort this out, as no one is giving me an answer never mind the payment. I fear JDW will go into administration and I will be left with nothing once again after being in this situation with both Wonga and Quick Quid. Is there anyone I can contact higher up in FOS to take this on? I am just dealing with an administrator who I feel is fobbing me off now.
Rose says
Can you maybe email that adjudicator (whichever one said that your complaint was upheld, and if you hadn’t heard from JD in 4 weeks, get in touch) directly (it should be their direct email on the message, if you went through the FOS site – I don’t know how it works through Resolver though, if you did it that way), copy JD in to the same message, and say exactly what you’ve said here – ie it’s been 5 months, JD are saying it’s FOS, FOS are saying it’s JD, you don’t know what’s going on, and you would like to know when you can expect payment to be made? If you’ve already got them in the same email trail, have you tried ringing FOS as an alternative? They may be able to tell you how to escalate it.
Chris says
My Adjudicator decided in my favour in February. JDW took 14 weeks to accept their decision. They were then given 4 weeks to finalize the redress – that was 6 weeks ago. I got in touch on Twitter to complain. They told me that the 4 weeks deadline was the FOS’ and not theirs (implying they were not bound to stick to it) and they then said they would not give me a timeframe for when they would work out the redress. I complained to the Adjudicator who got in touch with JDW. But…at the moment…I have no idea when this will be sorted out. For a complaint that has been running since May 2019, this is ridiculous.
Mr and Mrs C says
Chris – I feel your pain, JDW have come back me now via the FOS showing an amount, I asked can I see how they have calculated it? who would accept without checking their calculations?? I suspect I am now in for another 5 week wait till they come back with calculations. Its disgraceful how long they are taking.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
does it look roughly like what you were hoping for?
Mr and Mrs C says
Hi Sara – about £500 shorter than what I was expecting – however I am using today’s interest rates as JDW would not confirm to me how much they charged APR in 2008.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
you should ask then for either a copy of all your statements iover the relevant period or a statement of account for that period showing the interest, charges, payments each month.
Kayleigh says
Anyone had a letter from Santander re a NOSIA credit card refund. I had a letter dated 25th June stating they were issuing a refund of £10k (interest and fees) due to not sending out NOSIA when I went into default.
I called today as I hadn’t received my money to be told that the letters they sent out had a calculation error and they were sending new letters next week. I’m really panicking now that I will not be getting anywhere near what I was told. How can they do this?!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
oh dear. 10k is a huge amount, I hope they don’t reduce it too much!
Do you remember when you started having problems paying this card? HAd Santander raised your credit limit to a level that was much too high?
Kayleigh says
I missed some payments in 2006-2008 and again from 2014 to 2019. The credit card account has since been cleared and closed. I think the limit was quite high but cant remember exactly how much it was.
Santander said that the refunds will be more, less or nothing at all. They couldn’t tell me on the phone how much it will be and were very evasive about the error. I’m so angry that they can do this. The money would be a huge help.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
OK, so if you get anew letter saying you will get £8500, you will presumbay be pretty happy with that? But if they say £145 you won’t…
If you are not happy with the number you are told, you should consider asking them to give you the details of when they increased your credit limits and by how much. That will let you see if it is worth making an affordability complaint – see the article about for what an affordability complaint is.
Kayleigh says
Id be happy with half that amount even!
I think it is time I make some affordability complaints. I had several credit cards where the limits just went up and up!
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I am not surprised!
Let me know what they say?
Kayleigh says
Called them this morning. I have been given a revised figure. They have added £15 to my original figure which is a relief. It will be in my account within 10 working days from today.
Nat says
All that for £15. I havent got time to call them today i hope mine is the same mind
Nat says
I have called now mine had gone up £6 they sent new letter on the 6th so another 10 working days from then
Kayleigh says
Im glad the refunds are about the same but annoyed at having to wait another 10 working days!!
Nat says
Me too so annoyed at this. Was expecting today now got to wait. They did say they are working as quickly as they can just hoping they send before 10 working days
Ben says
I wasn’t paid and no letter perhaps it will come tomorrow. Do they say why the number changed? I couldn’t work out from the pages enclosed with the first letter how they got to the number – pretty unhelpful.
Nat says
I had my letter yesterday. I think it just said there was an error my letter is dated 6th july now so 10 working days from then. I really have no idea working out the numbers sorry
Sara (Debt Camel) says
You can’t work out the number from the figures they have given you. See my new artcile https://debtcamel.co.uk/santander-credit-card-nosia-refund/
Mik says
After receiving a letter from Barclaycard regarding irresponsible lending I decided to challenge other lenders that I felt must have done the same. I was initially rejected by NewDay (Aqua) and Vanquis. However, upon escalating the NewDay complaint to the FOS, and providing both with a full break down of the last 6 years (using my credit file) to highlight my limit and balance and how I was almost always just within, or over my limit for the majority of my time with each lender when they made these increases they agreed they were in the wrong. Today I received a refund from Vanquis of £4k (my total limit was £4 but has since been closed so I can use this pay off my outstanding debt), and yesterday the FOS decided in my favour that Newday must also pay me back all interest, charges, etc since the first irresponsible balance increase. But most importantly, my credit file has been completely cleaned, with no late markers, APs or defaults showing. I took a lot of persistence so don’t give up.
Nat says
I had a Santander letter also the same thing and on 25th june also. Did they say if everyones was the same mistake as i too was looking forward to this refund which the 10 working days will be up tomorrow.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Were you also promised a large refund?
Nat says
Mine was for £1250 which was really looking forward too so stupidly spent some money thinking i would have this refund this week.
Kayleigh says
They said everyone who got a letter would be getting a new letter next week. They are recalculating the refunds because they’re incorrect. I was also supposed to have it by tomorrow. I can imagine lots of people will be in the same boat.
Nat says
Oh thanks i am gutted myself now was expecting this by tomorrow :(
Sara (Debt Camel) says
See my article on this situation https://debtcamel.co.uk/santander-credit-card-nosia-refund/
Pippa says
Hello,
Are you able to access your credit score for 6 years? I only ask because I have been able to access mine for the last three but no further?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Are you trying to look at a report that would have been produced say 5 years ago? That isn’t possible unless you were signed up with a reporting firm back than, in which case they may be able to produce one.
But your current credit report should give details going back six years.
Mik says
Yes my credit file on checkmyfile goes back 6 years and shows data from all 3 (trans, exprian and equifax) giving the balance and limit month by month back to 2015
Col says
Hi Sara,
I have an affordability Complaint sitting with the Ombudsman against MBNA for increasing my limit to 4500.
The issue is the increase was on 14/05/14 and i sent the complaint in on 20/05/20 so 6 days out side the 6year limit.
The Ombudsman has given a preliminary decision in MBNA favour because of the time but has given an extension to provide further information.
Would the fact that there was a global pandemic and due to months of lockdown and furlough where i had no access to a laptop or printer to assist in my complaint to MBNA be an exceptional reason to why the complaint was late in being submitted?
I get the feeling that the Ombudsman wants to rule in my favour but the date issue has caused the stumbling block.
Thanks
Col
Sara (Debt Camel) says
i sent the complaint in on 20/05/20
was that the date you complained to MBNA or to FOS?
Did FOS ask when you became aware you had cause to complain?
Col says
Hi sara
I sent the complaint to MBNA on the 20/05/20. They did mentiin the 3 years and because i got a loan out in 2016 which i used part to clear the balance they said the 3 years should start from then so doesn’t qualify for the 3 years.
I thought the fact that i was only a few days over the 6 years and that i was stuck in the house for months with no access to a laptop etc may be considered as exceptional circumstances as to why the complaint was over the 6 years.
Thanks
Col
Sara (Debt Camel) says
They did mention the 3 years and because i got a loan out in 2016 which i used part to clear the balance they said the 3 years should start from then so doesn’t qualify for the 3 years.
did MBNA say that or FOS?
is this decision from FOS from an adjudicator or an Ombudsman?
Col says
Hi sara it was the Ombudsman who has said this.
Thats why i was thinking that the exceptional circumstances would be the only option to why it was just over the 6 years to make the complaint.
Its been a long road to get to this point and the fact the Ombudsman has given me till the 5th Aug to provide further info rather than just make a final decision is giving a bit of hope.
Thanks
Col
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you go back to the Ombudsman and say [assuming this is all accurate for you of course!] that although you knew you were in financial difficulty when you cleared the account with the laon you did not realise at that point that MBNA should have looked at whether the limit was affordable for you. Say when and how you found out about this and say the 3 year rule should run from thag point as before you did not realise you had cause to complaints.
david simmons says
Hi Sara, I hope you are well. I would appreciate your advice concerning the FCA rule that requires the lender to carry out regular reviews of the borrower’s financial situation over the many years credit card agreements last. What regular checks are required and can a credit card company claim that they were not aware of financial difficulty if the minimum payment was meet over a long period when no review was made of the changing financial situation. Appreciate your help. David.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
so they didn’t increase your credit limit during this time?
Apart from only making minimum payments were there any other warning signs on your account – was the account maxed out? did you withdraw cash? considerable amounts of gambling showing?
jo says
I recently made an affordability complaint to the Very group. They gave a final response within a couple of weeks. The response contained incorrect information, such as when i open the account my initial credit limit was £1000, it wasn’t, it was £250 and i have the proof. They also cited they had no concerns because i had been paying minimum payments each month. My thinking is that this should have been a concern, as i was only making minimum payments. They never carried out any credit or affordability checks either.
So, I’ve made a formal complaint to the FOS, and won’t hold my breath whilst i’m waiting for a response from them, as i know it takes some time.
Jax says
Hi, I put in an affordability complaint to Very a few weeks ago. I usually get emails and texts from them in the few days before my monthly payment is due but I’ve not had any this time. Is this usual when you have an on going complaint or just a coincidence please?
fas says
Hi I am the exact same no contact from them
Whatsoever, it’s making me very nervous, it’ll be 5 weeks on Wednesday from my complaint and that’s the date my payment is due, really hoping fir a good outcome.
Jax says
Thanks for replying. I will update here when I find anything out. Good luck with your complaint.
NICO says
Hi – third time I have posted this so would appreciate it if anyone could respond this time please.
Anyone had any experiences with the timescales of Capital One responding with settlement figured for upheld complaints please?
Many thanks
Rose says
If they’ve upheld a complaint you made, they should give the figure in their message, so I am assuming you mean where it’s been upheld by FOS: they have four weeks to contact you, after which you can contact the decision maker if you haven’t heard. Based on other posts about other lenders, this isn’t a failsafe to a swift solution, however, if they don’t, but I’ve only seen JD Williams mentioned in this context.
I haven’t made a complaint against Capital One, *but* based on recent cases I’ve had that the FOS has upheld, some companies move super-swiftly (thank you, Lending Stream) and others string it out to the eleventh hour (SafetynetCredit) with most at the 1-2 weeks mark. I’ve not seen anyone complaining that C1 have taken more than the four weeks, though.
NICO says
Thanks for the reply – called C1 today, they are working on 28 days from 07/07/21 – my concern is with the figures that I need to see. I will hopefully get a letter explaining everything soon.
I will update with any news.
Natalie says
Please can you help
Me in April of last year I filed against Newday for the credit increases they had given me. In July they wrote back and said they would stop any use of my card and they said they had acted appropriately , I then sent this to the FCA. This has been with them now and it has been with a case handler since January. In the meantime up until 2 months ago I had been making the minimum
Payment of
Between 180 – 200 a month and then redundancy happened. I messaged new day and have sent off my income sheet and my reduced proposed payment and have heard nothing until today when I have a letter telling me that they have terminated my account and I am now petrified of debt collection they have been so difficult to deal with on top of stress of paying bills. I have contacted stepchange however this would see me in an arrangement until I’m elderly! What can I do next I have emailed the case handler and told
Him
About new days treatment of me
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Is this your only problem debt?
Natalie says
No but we are just about managing to pay the minimum on cards etc , have managed to keep up to date with mortgage and utilities etc
Sara (Debt Camel) says
are you now out of work and living on benefits? Your mortgage and utilities take priority. It sounds as though your credit cards including this Newday one should either go into a debt management plan with Stepchange or you should be making token payments to them, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/token-payment-debt/
It doesn’t matter how long this DMP or payment arrangement will last, it is just a holding situation to allow you to pay the priority debts (mortgage, council tax, energy bills) while you are out of work. When you are back in work you can increase your payments. And if you win the Newday complaint, that will reduce that debt.
PS debt collectors are often a lot nicer to deal with than the original lender!
Natalie says
The latest update is that after a year the FOS have ruled in my favour. I am not sure now what the outcome will be other than perhaps marbles will reject again and it will have to go back off.
FOS stated that each of my increases showed eveidence they did not respond to any problem markers or contact me to see if I had any issues.
I had an original limit of 600 which was quickly increased to 5500 They also allowed me to take out an Aqua card when all this has been going on ( I never used this) thank you Sara for your help.
Has anyone had success with marbles / Newday?
Ali says
Can anyone share any positive stories regarding overdraft affordability claims?
I’m trying to keep my spirits high and positive as its my last possible claim. Had a few refunds from catalogues/payday loans a couple of years ago but been waiting for an adjudicator to contact me regarding a £1250 overdraft I had with natwest. They didn’t increase but gave it me on an account opening during a time I had several other debts amounting to £10k. I’ve now paid it off but they didn’t uphold so sent to Ombudsman in October 2020. Been chasing but keep being told it’s waiting to be picked up by an adjudicator…should I have any hope??
Thanks
Ali
N says
I have an overdraft claim with fos. I put the claim in last june and it still hasn’t been picked uo by adjudicator. My bank didnt agree either and i had a £1600 overdraft which i was in for nearly 2 years. They let me increase mine almost everyweek. Im feeling positive about this one as i banked with them they could see my income and outgoings. The fos said these claims are taking longer than expected
Ali says
Thanks for your reply. Sounds a little similar to mine although I had no increase but was in the overdraft fully from pretty much straight away the account opened for a year or 2…sounds like I might have longer to wait then if if you’re 4 months in front…crazy, it isn’t too bad if it ends up upheld and at least we know the banks are unlikely to be going anywhere like most of the payday loan companies…Good luck and update on here when you hear please :)
N says
I am still with this bank are you? I did have an email from fos a few weeks ago to send my credit file ready for adjudicator so maybe it won’t be long now. No prob will do
Ali says
I closed the account once I paid off. I looked back at my last email when I chased in February and in the email it did say ‘I can assure you that your complaint is progressing here at the Financial Ombudsman Service. We have obtained the file of papers from the business to complete your case file and to avoid further delays at the assessment stage.’ Not sure if this is standard lingo or hopefully they will have stuff they need by the time it gets to an adjudicator…just hoping it will be a positive outcome after all this time and for you too!
N says
Yes thats the email i had. will post if i hear anything. Thanks you too
Ali says
At least we’re on the same wavelength then and I know I’ve probably got another few months waiting time at least…maybe it’ll be a nice Christmas present if all goes well :D but won’t hold my breath too soon…
Ali says
Hi there,
Firstly, the information here has been invaluable, so thank you.
I have a complaint in with Shop Direct for my Very and Littlewoods accounts, they have had it for just over 8 weeks and I received a letter about a week ago saying they needed 2 more weeks. I will wait until the end of this week before taking it further but just wanted some advice. My debt was sold to Lowell ages ago and I have a payment plan with them but my payment this month never came out. I just called them and they said that Very requested the debt back due to an affordability complaint. He said that they usually only do this when they are at fault which sounds very promising to me. What do you think? Is this a good sign?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
it certainly isn’t a bad sign! Fingers crossed for you.
NICO says
Hi – I had a good outcome from Littlewoods/Very – cheque out the blue 2 weeks ago. It took the same path as yours did in your post – good luck.
Anth says
I’ve had similar slow movement on my Shop Direct claims with three accounts. 8 week mark is in the next few days and I received an acknowledgment after a week of sending, along with a 4 week “we need more time” letter. However, my Lowell account has today updated to view only saying “We’re aware there is a query with this account and will contact you when we have a resolution” and I’m unable to make any payments or amend any direct debit.
So it looks like things are moving in some way in the background, but they’re going to be taking a little longer than the 2 weeks. I have to agree with Ali that the information on this site has been absolutely invaluable, so fingers crossed for a positive resolution!
Ali says
Finally received a response and I am a little gobsmacked!
Both complaints against Very and Littlewoods were upheld totalling a refund of just short of £8,000!! Part of this will go towards the debt but it leaves me with approx. £5,600.
I am over the moon!
Michelle says
Hi Sara,
I had great success with my littlewoods claim . My husband wants to make a claim on his too , his limited is over 10k and they have never checked or asked anything about his income or expenditures since opening the account in 2011 , my question is if he LOST the claim will they still removed his option to use the catalog ? I won my claim and they have closed the account as it’s now clear thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I don’t know. But does it really matter? plenty of other places to buy stuff.
Is it hard for him to make the repayments?
Michelle says
Yes , we use several different card credit each month just to make minimum payments
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Then I seriously suggest you s=two should be talking to StepChange about a debt management plan. Get the interest on these debts frozen and you can make one affordable repayment. This will get you in a safe place while your and his complaints go through – these can take a very long while at FOS so don’t try to muddle through hoping for the best.
Ams says
Does anybody have an email address to complain to Barclaycard that they have already used? Also, is it secure. Can I put my personal details in it? Thanks
Kim says
Hi, I’m trying to get hold of my credit report from September 2018, the financial ombudsman has asked if I have a copy of it to help with a compliant they are looking at. I had an online chat with Experian who said they can’t hold reports from 3 years ago because of GDPR. Is the right?
Thanks Kim
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Just send a copy of your oldest credit report – that may be the current one! It will still show a lot of data pre 2018 so it will be fine.
Joseph says
Hi, No communication regarding final decision from VERY yet, but balance has been wiped from £250 to £0 and on my transactions it reads;
– Admin Charge Adjustment – £108
– Interest Charge Adjustment – £643
– Payments Refunded – £539
Has anybody had anything similar? Am I due to recieve £539-Balance?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
if this does happen, do you think that is an adequate amount?
JO says
I wouldnt say so, Ive had the account since 2016, been in 2 DMP’s and had multiple credit increases over time, on the other hand I could do with the money and wouldnt want to wait 12+ months for FOS
Sara (Debt Camel) says
That is a hard decision to take.
you could ask them to tell you how much interest you have paid since say mid 2017? So you have some facts to think about?
NICO says
This is what happened to me – expect a cheque any day.
Jo says
Hi Nico, will the cheque be for the refund – balance?
Anth says
That sounds more like you’ll get £1040 rather than £530 minus the balance. Each of those transactions is separate, so you’ve got £108 in admin charges refunded, £643 from interest charges refunded along with a refund of £539 payments you’ve made. So that’s £1290, or £1040 if you take off your outstanding balance.
Jo says
amazing thanks for the input Anth, I have been trying to figure that out. Calls for the pub!
Shaun says
From this calculation, you are to receive a cheque for £1,040
£643 + £539 + £108
– £250
Natalie says
Marbles card
After a year and several different case handlers yesterday the FOS came back and ruled in my favour that all 5 of the increases were given without looking any the increased debt levels and problem markers.
They also said that they failed to identify or ask me at each problem stage if I was having difficulties.
She has given them till 27/07 to respond , she said it may be they suddenly find some new response and then a further investigation- has anyone had any success with marbles. After two months of trying I finally got a reduced payment accepted although I was told I’m on day 65 of 180 before it may be sold to DCA …
Sam says
Hi all.
I’ve seen a lot of comments about Very so I thought I’d throw my experience in to the ring. Made a complaint about 5 weeks ago. No correspondence at all. Logged on my account to see the account balance has changed, quite dramatically. Presuming these are final changes, (have emailed for confirmation) I will have received a refund of just over 7K. For context, this doesn’t quite write of the balance, but it’s as good as there.
If you have put in a complaint, log in and check your balance.
Also, a word of thanks for Sara! Your website has been invaluable to me in fixing dire mistakes made when I was younger. As a ballpark figure, your website has helped me reduce my debt from £22,000 to £9,000. (Supposing that the Very refund is confirmed!) Real light at the end of the tunnel and around 2 and a half years until being debt free.
Thank you so much. And to anyone who is thinking about it, do it!
Yon says
Hello Sara
I have a credit card with my bank (Halifax ) the limit is £1,100. They gave me the card in June 2020 and have been struggling to pay the minimum since then because of my unexpected reduced hours at work. Would they be able to clear my balance and close my account as this has been effecting me from paying bills. Thanks
Paul says
Were the unexpected reduced hours at work before or after you got the card? Have they ever increased your limit? I doubt they would clear your balance but maybe its possible to get the interest refunded but if the hours changed after you got the card and they havent increased your limit since then it would be a hard case to win
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Well they could, but as Paul says they may not wipe your balance – it isn’t the bank’s fault that your hours were cut, that doesn’t mean their original lending decision was poor
However if you are on reduced income and are struggling to pay important bills, you should ask Halifax to allow you to make a lower payment and freeze interest. If necessary this can just be a token £1 a month payment. See https://debtcamel.co.uk/arrangement-to-pay/
James says
Hello Sara,
I’d first like to express my gratitude for the work that you’ve put into this site. I know I speak for many others when I say that you’ve made a real positive impact to those of us who’ve fallen victim to unscrupulous creditors.
I have a query relating to an Aqua credit card that I took out three years ago. My initial credit limit was £900, within 6 months it was increased to £1900 and I was maxing out the card, often going over limit and being charged fees. Approximately 12 months later the limit was increased to £2600, and 12 months after that I’d fallen behind to such a degree that the account was sold to Moorcroft. Aqua also accepted me for a £2000 loan in the intervening period, prior to the card account being sold.
I would like to complain about the increases to my credit limit and possibly the provision of the loan. My only concern is that, although the card is now with Moorcroft, Aqua haven’t registered a default on the account. I keep up with my regular repayments and I’ve been informed that they have no intention of defaulting.
My question is, would my complaint prompt them to default the account, and if so, would the default be applied from the date it was sold or the date the complaint was received? Also do you think it’s worth complaining about the loan on an affordability basis? I know these questions are somewhat speculative and may be difficult to answer, but any help is appreciated.
Many thanks,
James
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If Aqua gave you a loan when you were in arrears on the credit card, then you absolutely should make an affordability complaint about that loan.
Is the card showing as in arrears? a payment arrangement? or what?
James says
Hi Sara,
Thanks for your prompt reply. Strangely the account is listed as up to date on my credit file and the outstanding balance is now well under my credit limit. When I login to the account on the Aqua portal, I’m notified that the account has effectively been terminated and that it remains open only for the purposes of receiving payments through their intermediary, Moorcroft.
Thanks again, James
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Then this is an odd situation as they are incorrectly recording it at the moment if you were in arrears…
At any point they could look at this and correct it. This could happen if you complain but equally it could happen if you don’t complain…
Your story of increased credit limits after being charged over limit fees sounds like a good complaint to me. If you complain and later win the complaint, ANY negative information should be removed, late payments, defaults whatever.
Mary says
Hi, has anyone put a complaint in against PayPal? They allowed me to make a number of payments using my bank account even though I had my debit card as my default payment method.
I was able to make transactions using my bank account even though had no money in my current account, previously PayPal wouldn’t allow bank account transfers and would only be able to use debit card. I don’t have an overdraft and have a number of fees for unauthorised overdraft usage.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
They allowed me to make a number of payments using my bank account even though I had my debit card as my default payment method.
Not sure what Paypal have done wrong here? this isn’t credit that Paypal are giving you, it’s up to your bank if you are allowed an overdraft?
I was able to make transactions using my bank account even though had no money in my current account
But how could PayPal have known this? Isn’t this your banks fault not PayPal’s?
Mary says
That’s where I am confused about who I can contact about it? Would you suggest I contact my bank?
Sara (Debt Camel) says
If you did not have an approved overdraft, you would have to complain to your bank about excessive fees – that isn’t easy. See https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/bank-charges/ which looks at this sort of claim.
Can I ask what your current debt position is? I know you have a lot of claims going on, but how much do you owe at the momnet? Are you in work? How much are you paying to these debts?
Affordability complaints may not be a good answer to a very large debt problem.
Mary says
Hi Sara, my debts are high at the moment mainly due to 3 loans (one with Lifestyle loans which is with the FOS that makes up a 3rd of my total). Leaving approx. £14,000 of debt.
I am on a DMP now to help get back on track. I am in work but going on Maternity leave next week so the DMP would help with the reduced income I have too.
Many of the affordability complaints relate to borrowing to pay off borrowing and getting increased credit limits without the proper checks where they would have seen that I couldn’t afford the payments as just managed to make the minimum payments each month but then using credit to pay for my living costs so borrowing again. If they would have reviewed my credit file, they would have seen that I had taken out many loans and credit cards within weeks of each other.
It doesn’t help that I have a mental health condition along with a gambling problem (have self excluded via GamStop) and if checks were done they would have seen by problematic spending habits.
I understand that making affordability complaints isn’t a way of getting out of taking for my debts.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
so you will be able to reduce your DMP further as your money will probably drop more during your maternity leave.
That is a lot of debt. The Lifestyle loan is very recent, so you would be left owing most of that if the interest is removed.
Can I suggest you talk to a debt adviser about your situation? I suggest you phone National Debtline on 0808 808 4000. With a baby on the way (congrats!) it may be a good time for you to look at a debt relief order as an alternative, see https://debtcamel.co.uk/debt-options/dro/. Otherwise you may have a stressful time for a long while and still be left with a lot of debt at the end of this.
Mr and Mrs C says
5 month plus and still waiting for the redress from JD Williams that was decided in my favour from FOS in February.
Todays excuse is “at present the calculation breakdown request is with its Senior Manager to review and provide but they say he is currently on annual leave and they will update me on his return”
These people are a joke!
Jo f says
Can I ask what they decided to give the redress on? I’m waiting for months on the FOS to respond for irresponsible lending, not sure what my chances are
Mr and Mrs C says
Hi Jo F – this was for irresponsible lending also – i sent it to the FOS in May 2018 and finally got my decision in Feb this year. My patience is running out now.
@ Anita – I have been ringing JDW and also the FOS to chase things up – I cant say that I have had much luck with it though.
Anita says
I recived final decision rulled in my favor in April. They say silly things to adjudicator as well. Just excuses. How do you contact them?
Asl says
Hi Sara
Looking fir some advice before I contact very tomorrow. Like others I haven’t had a final
Response just logged into see my balance.
My credit limit was £7200 but the balance was £7629. So obviously over due to charges. Today I have logged in credit limit is still the same but it’s saying I have £4219.00 to spend and a buy now pay later balance of £2981.00. My goal here is to just get it paid off and shut down so my question is, can I ask them to use the available to spend to clear it, I don’t want credit with them anymore, as much as I would love some extra cash if I could? it would be nice to pay other bills with the rest.
Thanks in advance
Sara (Debt Camel) says
can I ask them to use the available to spend to clear it, I don’t want credit with them anymore,
I don’t think so. That “available to spend” I think is just your unused credit limit. If you “spend” that, then you will have to repay it.
I think you are just guessing at the moment. Wait until you know what their decision is. If you think it should be more, you can send the case to the ombudsman.
What other debts do you have at the moment? Are you making the normal payments to them? Are you behind with any bills?
Asl says
Yeah I have a few more debts amigo being one and credit cards, all minimum payments or arrangements. Just thought I’d ask because I thought I saw another post from you on here saying you don’t have to spend it with them they can ask for the refund.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
That is if your account has a positive balance. I am not sure from what you have said that your will. But wait and see!
Anita says
Hi. Is there any way to force JD Williams to fullfil FOS decision? I had a final response in April. Seems like even the adjudicator Has no power to do so. Very frustating.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
they have accepted the decision but not yet paid out?
what does your adjudicator say?
Anita says
Correct. They still have not even sent a proper calculation.
He just passes to me their responses that IT will be dealt with imminently… Apparently their have no power over it.
Anita says
Hi. This is the reply from adjudicator
JD Williams told us they had to clarify some additional information to make sure that any offers are clear with their consumers, and they told us they would be in touch with you soon.
If you could please continue to check your correspondence – including your spam mailbox – to ensure you haven’t missed anything that would be great.
As your case is closed with us, any updates in relation to payment etc. will not be communicated with us.
I do hope you hear from them soon as I know this has been going on for a while and you’re eager to have this resolved.
In terms of enforcement, there isn’t much we can do as we aren’t the regulators, but we continue to flag the cases where customers tell us they haven’t heard from the business. We do also report any trends to the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) and they can then take the appropriate action against a business.
What’s your thoughts Sara. Appreciate your opionion
Sara (Debt Camel) says
“JD Williams told us they had to clarify some additional information”
ask your adjudicator who they were “clarifying this information” with… FOS? In which case FOS will explain how the refund should be calculated… Or someone else, if so, who?
Tell your adjudicator that this is unreasonable and that the case is not closed until you have received payment.
Also tell the FCA about this. The FCA will not look into your individual complaint but hopefully, JD Williams will not like the FCA being told and there will be some action.
To do this, email consumer.queries@fca.org.uk and copy this to compliance.team@nbrown.co.uk and dan.joy@nbrown.co.uk
Subject: JD Williams (311618) have not refunded me despite accepting FOS decision in April
Give your JD Williams customer number or complaint number. And your FOS reference number.
Give a very brief summary of your complaint – no more than a couple of sentences.
Say JD Williams accepted a FOS decision in April but you have still not been paid. They provided you with with one calculation which was clearly wrong and they have not told you a corrected one.
Say how stressful this is. If you have credit card debts or an overdraft, say every money you are having to pay interest on these because JD Williams is delaying paying you.
Say you know that the FCA will not look into your complaint but you feel as the regulator they should be aware of what is going on. Say you think if an FCA authorised firm cannot calculate and pay a refund within a month from the Ombudsman decision they should have to stop trading until they staff their complaints function properly.
Anita says
Sara, I can not thank you enough for your help. I will foollow your advice as always.
Mr and Mrs C says
Thank you – I am going to try this also.
Ruth says
Hello, I hope you don’t mind this quick Q.
I complained to Coop bank in March and got a final decision (not upheld) in May. I then put in a complaint to the FOS on 13 May 2021 but I have not had any contact from them yet – not even an acknowledgement. Their website says 10 working days to get an acknowledgement. While I know timescales will be longer than usual, it’s been over 2 months without even an acknowledgement. Do I need to worry that my complaint has got “lost” or I mistyped my contact details (this is highly unlikely)? Should I put it in again?
Thanks
Ruth
Sara (Debt Camel) says
I suggest you phone FOS up and ask why your complaint has not been acknowledged.
Ruth says
Thanks! I have just rung them. Turned out the complaints get scanned into the system and the OCR had turned my email address into something incorrect. So they had acknowledged it after a week but I hadn’t received anything. All corrected now.
They were great on the phone – glad I rang – thanks for the encouragement to do so.
Chris says
JDW update: received an email today saying they had calculated the redress in accordance with the ruling of the FOS Adjudicator and that they needed to find out the balance of the debt as it stands now from the Lowells – who purchased the debt. Seems that this should take no more than a day or two. I will let you know what happens next but have a slight feeling in my bones that the redress won’t actually do everything the Adjudicator has directed – in particular, deal with the 8% default interest. I don’t know why I am so wary. Possibly the 2 years and 3 months it has taken to get this far?
A says
Hi Sara
I wonder if you have any advice for me on what steps I should be taking next because i am at my wits end with Barclaycard :(.
– 27th April I complained and got an email through resolver saying they would respond within 2 days.
– 5th May a letter saying I would receive a final response by 12th may.
– 10th June I emailed Barclaycard stating that I could escalate my case in 12 days.
– 21st June I stated I could escalate the case within 14 hours.
– 22nd June I escalated to the Ombudsman. Advised 3 months before my case would be given an adjudicator, however in my past 3 dealings with the Ombudsman this has been 12 months+
– 19th July I recieved a letter from Barclays dated 28th June stating they need more time and a final response by 5th July.
– Yesterday afternoon I called ‘complaints’, after being on hold for an hour I was informed that they ‘will not’ issue a response until after the Financial Ombudsman has made a decision on my case and this was a policy from the Financial Ombudsman themselves!
Sorry about the lengthy post. I feel like I am completely at their mercy and in the meantime still paying £68 a month on a card that is frozen.
.A
A says
Oh and to top it off I was not even permitted to speak to the lady handling my complaint directly and had to raise my concerns through a 3rd party who typed to her on my behalf. I told them I was really unhappy and wanted to lodge a complaint about how my complaint was being handled (how kafkaesque!) The handler said that I wouldnt be able to do this as it is linked.
I did email the Ombudsman my concerns, but as you can imagine it may take them 3 months for an admin worker to email me back, if they manage to email me back at all.
:(
Sara (Debt Camel) says
Are the £68 a month payments affordable? Did Barclaycard freeze the account after you made a complaint or had they already frozen it because of persistent credit card debt?
What is the rest of your financial situation like?
Can you say something about your complaint – was it that they increased your credit limits? Or that they failed to notice that you were only making minimum payments over a long period? WAs there any reason they should have been able to tell from your account that you were in difficulty?
A says
I have been paying the minimum since around 2015. I went into a DMP. The dmp ended in 2019 and i continued to pay the minimum amount to Barclays. the account was still active and not closed. I had several payday loans, 2 other credit cards, a large overdraft and a 3k catalog debt with very when I entered the DMP.
Barclays froze my account in January 2021 for persistent debt and asked for a paydown plan. I have been paying the paydown plan amount since.
I was 22 when I got the credit card, single parent and i got credit thrown at me. I like to think I have matured since and have been playing catch up trying to clear my credit files since. Barclays froze interest for a few years while I was in my DMP and reinstated charges when it ended.
I complained about irresponsible lending for increasing my credit card limits. Sorry missed that bit.
I have had a couple of refunds from my other creditors for the same situation. i dont think a DMP was right for me, I probably should have filed for bankruptcy as I lived at home and didnt have any assets.
Sara (Debt Camel) says
so while you were in the DMP, you were paying less than the minimum? What was your Barclaycard balance at the end of this?
why did your DMP end in 2019? you had taken that large Likely Loan in 2018?
PS you should definitely be sending this to the ombudsman. I am asking all these questions looking for some extra points you can make to FOS.
Florence says
Hello,
Just wondering if anyone has had success will complaints for PayPal?
In 2018/2019 I had severe financial difficulties (multiple payday loans, 10k credit card debt and constant overdraft) I have pursued the credit cards and my overdraft successfully.
My PayPal credit went from £500 to £2000 during this hard time, and I have several missed payments.
Thanks
Sara (Debt Camel) says
They have been mentioned a couple of times but mostly people just asking like you. I suggest you complain and send to the Ombudsman if PP reject.
Mike_p says
I’m in the process of complaining to them now. They gave me 5 credit increases over three years at times when I’d only ever ever made the minimum payment and had multiple payday loans outstanding so I think I have a reasonably strong case.
They were very sloppy in their initial response and gave me some cock and bull story about the credit referennce agency not giving them details of creditors (what’s a credit reference agency for then?). They also claimed that the credit reference agency just gives them a yes or no decision (no I wasn’t born yesterday). I raised it with the FOS after that who made a complaint to them about not telling me I could escalate it to the FOS, and I’ve just got a proper final response from them denying any wrongdoing so it’s back with the FOS.
Mike_p says
The Paypal final response was quite laughable as well. Apparently they could actually see details of my creditors and said they could see I never had more than three payday loans at once (wrong as I had more, but even if that was true they shouldn’t be increasing limits for someone with that many). They also said they could see I had no payday loans after January 2020 (true but irrelevant as they didn’t increase my limit after that anyway)
Sam says
Update on Very/ISME account.
Hi all.
Had my final decision letter through. ISME account with 9k balance and Very account with 2k balance. Complained about credit limit increases over a short period of time, given terrible CR and a lot of outstanding credit.
Anyway, BOTH accounts have had the balance effectively written off and SD are not pursuing the small remaining amount.
Both accounts to be closed and marks removed from CR. So all in all, that’s a win of 11k! All down to this site. Honestly, I cannot thank you enough!
Just waiting for my 2k littlewoods complaint to be responded to and, with complaints to other loan providers, this site will have helped me to around 16k worth of complaint wins. My debt at the start of the year was around 22k. It now reads 6k on my stepchange account.
Anyone thinking about complaining, do it. Use the templates, follow the advice. Wish I’d done it years ago!
Sara, I cannot thank you enough.
Jax says
Hi all, just wondering what experiences folk have had with Capital One. Do they usually take the full 8 weeks to respond to complaints and do they usually send the 4 week holding response? Not heard anything since their initial acknowledgement of my complaint almost 8 weeks ago.
Alison Cade says
I received a final response within 10 days of my emailed complaint. Very quick. Maybe email them again to chase.
Jax says
Thanks I’ll do that!
Jax says
So I emailed them and have had no response. 8 weeks are up so off to FOS I go.
Ali says
Maybe give them a call too? I called 0344 822 4616.